Personal minimums?

Clark1961 said:
While the odds *may* be small, the consequences of a problem are likely quite large.

Let's just say we disagree and leave it at that.
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Why the curt response?

What are the consequences? If the pilot cannot hand-fly a missed approach from DA or higher, he is in really bad shape.

Or, lets say his personal minimums are 800-2. The autopilot goes TU at 1,100. How is he better off in IMC at 1,100 than at say 300?
 
aterpster said:
1. The odds of losing the automation from GS interception to DA are very small.

2. Hand flying a missed approach is, or should be, independent of personal minimums. If a pilot can't handle that he is seriously lacking in general proficiency.
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This was my thinking exactly. Assuming the equipment worked during the flight you can reasonable assume that when you start the approach you will end the approach with your automation. Though, yes, plan for the worst and all that jazz.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that someone RELY on the automation, I'm simply suggesting that automation may provide someone with the comfort to use published minimums rather than a personal minimum based on proficiency.

I'm also not suggesting that someone with low proficiency go out when every airport is LIFR. With the GPS in lieu of DME/ADF you're REQUIRED that the alternate not require a DME/ADF or you must have a real DME/ADF in the plane. I would apply the same to the automation, if you feel you NEED the autopilot to get into your primary then make sure your alternative does not need the automation and still meets your personal minimums.

And, yes, if you're not comfortable with hand flying a missed approach then what the heck are you doing in the soup. Obviously if you're using automation at any point you must be able, capable, and ready to perform any task required without the automation.

Short version: why can't we use automation as a tool to make us better pilots and think or plan accordingly?
 
35 AoA said:
I'm struggling to figure out why having "personal minimums" would be a bad thing?
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Not a bad thing necessarily, but... if you plan on flying an approach and going missed based on a personal decision altitude (what some do), you are going to be flying an uncharted, unknown missed approach procedure. Say you abort at 800 ft when the published mins are 200 there is no guarantee of obstacle clearance. For me, if I accept an approach, I fly to the published criteria, including mins, everytime. I don't believe in rolling my own missed approach procedures. I do have other personal minimums, i.e. 1 hour fuel reserve, not accepting a type of approach I've not practiced recently, not launching at all if there is a high probability of ice, etc.. and I'll not launch at all if I am not pretty sure It'll be OK at my destination.
 
jbarrass said:
Not a bad thing necessarily, but... if you plan on flying an approach and going missed based on a personal decision altitude (what some do), you are going to be flying an uncharted, unknown missed approach procedure. Say you abort at 800 ft when the published mins are 200 there is no guarantee of obstacle clearance.
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What are the criteria for going missed? is it only DA or MDA? Could it be time, could it be needle off scale? What about a late instruction to intercept? Are all those practical examples going to put one into unprotected airspace?

Folks need to do some more thinking here...especially those that think automation is the answer...

(crap, I'm starting to wrestle with the hogs again...must...stop...now)
 
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jbarrass said:
Not a bad thing necessarily, but... if you plan on flying an approach and going missed based on a personal decision altitude (what some do), you are going to be flying an uncharted, unknown missed approach procedure. Say you abort at 800 ft when the published mins are 200 there is no guarantee of obstacle clearance. For me, if I accept an approach, I fly to the published criteria, including mins, everytime. I don't believe in rolling my own missed approach procedures. I do have other personal minimums, i.e. 1 hour fuel reserve, not accepting a type of approach I've not practiced recently, not launching at all if there is a high probability of ice, etc.. and I'll not launch at all if I am not pretty sure It'll be OK at my destination.
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Absolutely. I think I could have worded my previous a little better than I did, as you and others took it to mean something I didn't intend it to. When I say personal mins, I say that mainly in a flight planning sense....as in I'm sitting around sipping coffee, looking at the weather, and deciding to go flying. Maybe my definition of "personal minimums" is different in terms of where it is applied. If it gets to the point where you are shooting an approach, the weather was worse than forecast, and below your "personal mins", I would say that you should still fly to the published mins.......the personal min thing in my mind is a nice to have that allows you to hopefully avoid weather that isn't to your liking. In the heat of the moment, you would have to enjoy artificially creating an emergency to still stubbornly apply said personal mins and not break out when you could at mins. If you have an instrument rating, that means that someone sometime and somewhere judged you to be capable of flying to mins. If anything I am really speaking entirely in terms of a specific scenario. 35 AoA, what are your personal mins when everywhere is socked in below mins, there are no diverts, you are out of gas, and you are on your x'th PAR you ask? I'd bet my life on flying it to touchdown in 0/0 personally. Some would also probably wildly differ from that opinion. But these are two extremes of the scale of risk vs reward, and I think they both have their time and place. Long story short, all I'm saying is that if I am simply flying for personal pleasure, I am probably not launching into anything worse than non-precision mins, and depending on how I was feeling that day, maybe not even that bad. If I get out there, and my destination is unexpectedly down to mins, I will still fly an approach to mins. Have I rambled enough? :)
 
jbarrass said:
... if you plan on flying an approach and going missed based on a personal decision altitude (what some do), you are going to be flying an uncharted, unknown missed approach procedure.
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Missing early or higher than published DH or MDA doesn't authorize you to deviate from the procedure track. Published descent minimums are just that "minimums". If you're cleared for the approach you're expected to fly the procedure track, there's nothing saying you even have to descend below the last assigned altitude at least until the missed approach point.
 
Check out Takeoff. It will allow you to enter your personal minimums and get color coded warnings for all your airports. Also does a TON more than that. http://takeoffaviationweather.com

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My personal minimum is based on the forecast being wrong. I don't have a problem with dropping down to 200 AGL but what if the ceiling is lower than forecast and I can't get in?
 
I'm still struggling to get my head around the concept of not being willing to fly an approach to published minimums. Is the plane harder to fly at glideslope intercept altitude than it is at DH?

Are there really instrument pilots who fly perfect approaches until about 500ft AGL and then suddenly fall apart? You just keep doing what you were doing for a little bit longer.

Now, if someone doesn't want to fly into OVC003 because of the engine out prospects in a single engine aircraft, I can understand that...but to not fly an approach to minimums, I struggle with that part. If you got your rating to begin with, then you probably spent a disproportionate amount of your instrument training shooting approaches to minimums in any case.

I've shot approaches to minimums 10-12 times in real life (and countless times in the sim at home), it's really not a whole lot harder than breaking out a few hundred feet higher.
 
Dirty Harry said it best. A man has got to know his limitations.
 
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