Pay up front for parts

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Tom-D said:
No, your probably not asking the correct questions and signing them off on time alone.
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The AW ASI's that handle it are doing a good job and are thorough. They also are the PMI's over the CRS, so are familiar with the operation.

Tom-D said:
no wonder we have so many poor A&Ps in the field.
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Are you referring to the type that use a pen instead of a tool box to do their repairs, or get on the Internet and brag about how they can do an annual inspection in just 4 or 5 hours??

I agree, very poor indeed.
 
AuntPeggy said:
OK, additional information. The mechanic is just starting out, so doesn't have inventory and probably not that much credit either. So, I guess with the economy going the way it is, the "up front" request is not out of line.

Also, our annual is coming up in a week at a new (to us) shop, so I guess I'll find out whether we get the same request now. Hubby takes off time for the annual and he is there to make decisions and (I guess) pay for parts as well as do whatever work he can.
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You generally have two choices for parts, especially big ticket items. You can pre-pay (or order yourself, see below) or let the shop make some money on the parts and pay after the shop is finished with the work. A few shops try to go with the third option of making the customer pay up front and still mark up the prices but I won't generally go along with that.

Depending on your relationship with the mechanic you might want to order the parts you're paying for in your own name. That way there's no lack of clarity on who owns them. I know of a couple instances where avionics were paid for in advance and the shop installed them in someone else's airplane.

Most mechanics aren't crooks but the ones that are tend to become pretty good at deception.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
No it doesn't. Documented experience showing 30 months experience for combined rating, or 18 months experience for either powerplant or airframe. The A&P's you worked under (or CRS) can sign and notarize a letter stating such experience, take it to the FSDO and get the written authorizations.
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Twice now you have contradicted my direct experience with the the FSDO. Last August at the FSDO down here when I asked he went in the book and found recency issues and told me 'No' I couldn't test.
 
Henning said:
Twice now you have contradicted my direct experience with the the FSDO. Last August at the FSDO down here when I asked he went in the book and found recency issues and told me 'No' I couldn't test.
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Not sure where you are getting that from. In looking at 14 CFR Part 65 it doesn't specify a recency requirement to test, only a recency requirement for someone already rated.

Here is the applicable section of 8900.1

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=34EB500C9E377AF1862577290045480A

If you can show me something that specifies a recency requirement to test for an A&P I would like to see it.
 
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It's a two-way street. Mike's problem about getting paid is very common - a lot of people don't get paid. Conversely, once you've paid for parts then you're somewhat stuck with that mechanic until the plane is fixed. My mechanics never ask me to pay for parts up front except for big items (when they don't have enough credit) and I don't have a problem paying for those.
 
When I had my shop at KHUT we had the volume to not need advances on the small things or fast turn jobs. Engine overhauls, insurance repairs, and heated windshield replacements. are the jobs when I would ask for the parts payment in advance.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Are you referring to the type that use a pen instead of a tool box to do their repairs, or get on the Internet and brag about how they can do an annual inspection in just 4 or 5 hours??

I agree, very poor indeed.
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you tell me what is on the Mooney that can't be inspected in 4-5 hours? tell us what part of FAR 43-D you don't understand.

Remember this is an inspection, not a maintenance period, or didn't you know there is a difference?

You simply don't demonstrate the basic knowledge or understanding of the FAA operations to be who you say you are.

This was demonstrated once again in this thread when you didn't understand what a repairman's function was in a CRS.
 
Tom-D said:
you tell me what is on the Mooney that can't be inspected in 4-5 hours? tell us what part of FAR 43-D you don't understand.

Remember this is an inspection, not a maintenance period, or didn't you know there is a difference?

You simply don't demonstrate the basic knowledge or understanding of the FAA operations to be who you say you are.

This was demonstrated once again in this thread when you didn't understand what a repairman's function was in a CRS.
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I would imagine the gear drop alone can take three manhours or more. Add in a compression check and you are well over five, I imagine. Are you honestly claiming to do a complete annual on a complex aircraft in 4 - 5 hours?
 
alfadog said:
I would imagine the gear drop alone can take three manhours or more. Add in a compression check and you are well over five, I imagine. Are you honestly claiming to do a complete annual on a complex aircraft in 4 - 5 hours?
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The aircraft was on jacks when I arrived, it's a manual lever actuated. how long will it take to raise and lower the gear enough time to determine it is in good condition?

The cowl is off, the upper plugs are out, the compressor is pumped up, how long does it take to check 4 cylinders? inspect the engine for leaks, check timing shouldn't take over 30 minutes.

inspecting the airframe is a no brainer, the interior is out. your looking for any thing that doesn't look right inside and out.

when the owner presents the aircraft ready for inspection it really doesn't take that long.

but hand the IA the keys and walk it will take a lot longer.
 
Tom, you would be better served to drop the accusations and innuendos about whether Rotor is an FAA guy. It's gaining you absolutely nothing insofar as credibility it concerned, and coming ever closer to making you look like an old fool who is obsessed with an argument that most here know you won't win. Concentrate on the mechanical things at which you are competent and let the other stuff go.

And if you're going to play a trick card during an argument, get it on the table quickly so people won't think you play games. The little stunt about revealing the the Mooney is jacked, decowled and deplugged is obviously a ploy and fails to recognize that somebody else besides you did a lot of work. As these discussions go, the total time required for the inspection includes prep and get ready, so trying to dismiss these items as already done by someone else is a bit disingenuous.

To date, you and Henning are the only guys who seem to bristle at Rotor's comments, while the rest of us nod in agreement with most of what he says. What's wrong with this picture?



[Tom-D;921011]The aircraft was on jacks when I arrived, it's a manual lever actuated. how long will it take to raise and lower the gear enough time to determine it is in good condition?

The cowl is off, the upper plugs are out, the compressor is pumped up, how long does it take to check 4 cylinders? inspect the engine for leaks, check timing shouldn't take over 30 minutes.

inspecting the airframe is a no brainer, the interior is out. your looking for any thing that doesn't look right inside and out.

when the owner presents the aircraft ready for inspection it really doesn't take that long.

but hand the IA the keys and walk it will take a lot longer.[/QUOTE]
 
wabower said:
Tom, you would be better served to drop the accusations and innuendos about whether Rotor is an FAA guy. It's gaining you absolutely nothing insofar as credibility it concerned, and coming ever closer to making you look like an old fool who is obsessed with an argument that most here know you won't win. Concentrate on the mechanical things at which you are competent and let the other stuff go.

And if you're going to play a trick card during an argument, get it on the table quickly so people won't think you play games. The little stunt about revealing the the Mooney is jacked, decowled and deplugged is obviously a ploy and fails to recognize that somebody else besides you did a lot of work. As these discussions go, the total time required for the inspection includes prep and get ready, so trying to dismiss these items as already done by someone else is a bit disingenuous.

To date, you and Henning are the only guys who seem to bristle at Rotor's comments, while the rest of us nod in agreement with most of what he says. What's wrong with this picture?
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You can believe what you like about this guy who ever he is, but there are too many things that don't fit.

the FAA encourages their people use the e-mail yet this guy won't.

One of the ASI's major portion of their job is dealing with a CRS yet this guy doesn't know any thing about them that he can't look up on line.

several times he has made big mistakes that a real ASI would never make.

Cya

and yes I do bate him.
 
wabower said:
And if you're going to play a trick card during an argument, get it on the table quickly so people won't think you play games. The little stunt about revealing the the Mooney is jacked, decowled and deplugged is obviously a ploy and fails to recognize that somebody else besides you did a lot of work. As these discussions go, the total time required for the inspection includes prep and get ready, so trying to dismiss these items as already done by someone else is a bit disingenuous.
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Hmm, obviously I got myself into the middle of something that I have no business being in the middle of.

Regarding the annual, perhaps the most extreme of "owner-assisted" annuals might meet the claim (with a very cooperative mechanic) but my friend just did his owner-assisted annual on the Luscombe and paid for 6 - 8 hours (it was a flat fee and there was some travel; I do not know the hourly rate so can only estimate the hours). He prepped the airplane, made all requested repairs himself, and closed it up. The mechanic made two trips. And the Luscombe is a VERY simple airplane.

For myself and the Arrow, owner-assist was not really an option and there were squawks to be addressed. I was quoted 21 hours at $55 for the inspection which was consistent with what I read about in this and other forii.
 
Hey, guys, please play nice. Really, mud slinging just makes all parties look dirty.

Thanks.
 
I can't imagine a mechanic allowing an unknown individual to replace panels and such on an airframe he or she just signed as being airworthy. On my aircraft, if such parts are installed incorrectly, the aircraft will be anything but.
 
steingar said:
I can't imagine a mechanic allowing an unknown individual to replace panels and such on an airframe he or she just signed as being airworthy. On my aircraft, if such parts are installed incorrectly, the aircraft will be anything but.
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On the Luscombe, the owner was there assisting at all times though I doubt you can get in much trouble with replacing the inspection plates on that airplane anyway. Still, I would imagine that the mechanic should see it buttoned up before signing off.
 
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steingar said:
I can't imagine a mechanic allowing an unknown individual to replace panels and such on an airframe he or she just signed as being airworthy. On my aircraft, if such parts are installed incorrectly, the aircraft will be anything but.
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The FAA doesn't believe it is that big of an issue when they allow it in preventive maintenance list (#6).

Tell me what panels on a Mooney M20 series would be considered in appropriate for an owner to replace.

If what you suggested is in fact not legal, then neither is any owner assisted annual.
 
Tom-D said:
And where did any one get the idea I didn't ?
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The fact that you claimed the Mooney was on jacks and disassembled, you did a four or five hour inspection, and failed to mention any activity on your part thereafter.

The fact that you didn't supervise the disassembly seems to me to be irresponsible. Sorry, that's how I see it. You didn't make certain that the parts were removed in a way in which they would again be replaceable. If you are taken at your word, you didn't ascertain whether they were replaced in a way in which they would stay put.

Seems looney to me, but I'm not a go time A&P, so what do I know? And never having done an oil change on an aircraft, I'm way too stupid to be your customer anyway.
 
steingar said:
The fact that you claimed the Mooney was on jacks and disassembled, you did a four or five hour inspection, and failed to mention any activity on your part thereafter.

When an owner can change tires, service wheel bearings how can they do that with placing the aircraft on Jacks?

That is allowed by 43-A para (c)

The fact that you didn't supervise the disassembly seems to me to be irresponsible.

Why? do I have to over see a tire change, or is it my responsibility to inspect the wheels and bearing as 43-D requires?

Sorry, that's how I see it.

That's fine, you are entitled to drop your aircraft off and walk away and pay the big bucks too.

You didn't make certain that the parts were removed in a way in which they would again be replaceable. If you are taken at your word, you didn't ascertain whether they were replaced in a way in which they would stay put.

I was hoping you make the assumption that I would, rather than assuming that I was derelict in my duties. it is rather easy when you roll the aircraft out of the hangar to complete the run up required by 43-D

Seems looney to me, but I'm not a go time A&P, so what do I know? And never having done an oil change on an aircraft, I'm way too stupid to be your customer anyway.
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If you were my customer you would have had the training to make you knowledgeable enough to do the work required to prepare the aircraft for inspection.
 
alfadog said:
I would imagine the gear drop alone can take three manhours or more. Add in a compression check and you are well over five, I imagine. Are you honestly claiming to do a complete annual on a complex aircraft in 4 - 5 hours?
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You have a heck of an imagination. Cessnas take as long as any and from the time I'd slide the first jack off the wall until I was putting it away again would be 45 minutes, hour and a quarter if I'm doing bearings.

If you have wheel pants I will typically spend as much time dealing with those as doing a swing.
 
Late model mooneys can take a bit longer,(5 min maybe, I don't remember exactly) there's a break over torque check.

No Tom its not in 43 d, but still a good idea.
 
Henning said:
You have a heck of an imagination. Cessnas take as long as any and from the time I'd slide the first jack off the wall until I was putting it away again would be 45 minutes, hour and a quarter if I'm doing bearings.

If you have wheel pants I will typically spend as much time dealing with those as doing a swing.
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Name one aircraft that has wheel pants and retracting gear?

I mean Like ,, Da,, If you can put them away why have pants?
 
Skylane81E said:
Late model mooneys can take a bit longer,(5 min maybe, I don't remember exactly) there's a break over torque check.

No Tom its not in 43 d, but still a good idea.
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Yep it takes a couple minutes to set the torque wrench and do the test.

we are talking 4-5 hours of steady well organized work, where the coffee stays on the bench and the heads in the inspection. It is no big deal to INSPECT the early Mooneys.
 
Tom-D said:
Name one aircraft that has wheel pants and retracting gear?

I mean Like ,, Da,, If you can put them away why have pants?
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I think the point was that retracts should take about the same amount of time as a FG with pants. As a rule he probably isn't far off, but some swings are easier than others and some pants come off easier than others too.

Minds out of the gutter!
 
Bullshlt.

Where are the jacks when you start? Did they magically move from the jack storage area to the bay in which the plane is located? How many floor panels did you remove for leak checks during the swing? Did they all come at once or one at a time? Did you remove the rug? Did you pump all three jacks at the same time? or work around them indivually? How much service work is required? If a Cessna, did you need a tail weight when the plane started to tip on its nose? If so, how did it get there? Any fluid needed? Where is it?

Henning said:
Cessnas take as long as any and from the time I'd slide the first jack off the wall until I was putting it away again would be 45 minutes, hour and a quarter if I'm doing bearings.

If you have wheel pants I will typically spend as much time dealing with those as doing a swing.
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Folks, with the wealth of experience here I'd expect that folks have different opinions and different experiences. Thats fine but lets remember that in expressing an opinion or disagreement with another one does not need to be nasty or hurl barbs at the other person. This is a web board where folks come for answers and camradierie its not a roughneck bar. Lets keep it Civil and polite.
 
AdamZ said:
Folks, with the wealth of experience here I'd expect that folks have different opinions and different experiences. Thats fine but lets remember that in expressing an opinion or disagreement with another one does not need to be nasty or hurl barbs at the other person. This is a web board where folks come for answers and camradierie its not a roughneck bar. Lets keep it Civil and polite.
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Come on. Most of these discussions end up with the same folks trying to have a crank measuring contest. Besides the fact that they don't even address th OP's original questions.
 
steingar said:
Seems looney to me, but I'm not a go time A&P, so what do I know? And never having done an oil change on an aircraft, I'm way too stupid to be your customer anyway.
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Oil changes are easy with brief training. Learning how not to make a mess is the hard part.

Prep for an annual would take a good training session, good notes, and perhaps a digital camera for anything specific that's hard to write down, and good organization of where everything came from and goes back to.

Not particularly hard for someone who's done some automotive work and learned how to be organized in a shop. Places to put screws, inspection plates, interior components, etc.

Taking the cowl off, opening all the inspection ports, and removing the seats and carpet in our airplane is half the battle.

We don't do the annual prep mostly because our shop is at a different airport. Nowhere to do it. The shop on the field is very formal and has their system set up to do it all fairly quickly.
 
Tom-D said:
Many of us simply can't afford to get stuck with a dead beat. I'm not set up to do resale, so I simply tell the owner to buy the parts them selves.

When you come to me for an oil change, I'll tell go do it your self, if you don't know what filter to buy, your too stupid to be a good customer anyway.

just saying....
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I may be stupid, but I know the difference between "your" and "you're".
 
BillyBH said:
I may be stupid, but I know the difference between "your" and "you're".
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My primary purpose is being an A&P, the secondary is pizzing you off.
 
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