Partial Panel ... what next?

[Pi1otguy]

You're flying an approach in IMC when you suffer a vacuum failure. You revert to your partial panel skills, but it took a while to detect and recover from the failure. You're working to avoid the dreaded "full deflection".

You communicate the failure to approach and hear "Roger Cessna 123, say intensions".

Luckily this was in the sim, but what's next? I requested a climb and to go missed. But supposedly requesting vectors and continuing the approach was also an option.

 

[frfly172]

Ask for vectures and use the panel on the IPad.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Get away from the ground (missed approach—possibly vectors rather than a published procedure), regroup, make sure you’re fully transitioned to whatever backup instrumentation you’re using, and then request another approach (or go elsewhere for better weather.)

 

[luvflyin]

You're flying an approach in IMC when you suffer a vacuum failure. You revert to your partial panel skills, but it took a while to detect and recover from the failure. You're working to avoid the dreaded "full deflection".

You communicate the failure to approach and hear "Roger Cessna 123, say intensions".

Luckily this was in the sim, but what's next? I requested a climb and to go missed. But supposedly requesting vectors and continuing the approach was also an option.

Where on the Approach were you when these things happened? When you detected it and recovered? If you felt you needed to go missed, request should not be in your vocabulary. You tell them that's what you are doing. Then you can start requesting stuff.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Where on the Approach were you when these things happened? When you detected it and recovered?

Halfway between the FAF and MAP. A little under 2 min left (~2nm to MAP).

 

[luvflyin]

Where on the Approach were you when these things happened? When you detected it and recovered?

Halfway between the FAF and MAP. A little under 2 min left (~2nm to MAP).

That ain't no time to be requesting nuthin' if you don't think you should continue and land. You miss. Then tell them when you get a break from aviatin and navigatin and can to a little communicatin.

 

[mandm]

Low to the ground, possible to misinterpret the instruments and in IMC. Would this be an emergency?

 

[Pi1otguy]

Low to the ground, possible to misinterpret the instruments and in IMC. Would this be an emergency?

If you announce partial panel to approach, I feel they'd quietly "declare" for you.

 

[WDD]

Go missed

After gaining altitude and wings level, tell them 1) you're going missed, 2) Pan Pan - you're partial panel. If rusty on partial, declare an emergency

 

[luvflyin]

If you announce partial panel to approach, I feel they'd quietly "declare" for you.

Maybe. I wouldn’t have done it based just on that. If you became an adventure, like unable to hold altitudes and headings well, or other problems that were making it difficult to keep you separated from other planes then I would make the declaration. Or even without that issue, if it seemed you were having difficulty to the point of being unsafe in my judgement, I would declare.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Maybe. I wouldn’t have done it based just on that. If you became an adventure, like unable to hold altitudes and headings well, or other problems that were making it difficult to keep you separated from other planes then I would make the declaration

The one time (many years ago) I was partial panel in actual IMC, approach gave me a descent earlier than usual into VMC. Did I declare or request anything? No, just reported the failure. But SoCal seems to be pretty helpful and friendly.
Figured they added a note to my file when tower asked if I was alright after landing.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Figured they added a note to my file when tower asked if I was alright after landing.

It went into your PERMANENT RECORD!

 

[WDD]

It went into your PERMANENT RECORD!

What would happen if ATC was run by elementary catholic school nuns!

 

[texasclouds]

Did you lose gyros on an ILS? If the ILS needles are still working, are already fully configured, and you are comfortable that the weather will allow you to see the field…why not slide down that ILS and go get a coffee?

Nav guidance, airspeed, and altimeter still working…let’s put this puppy down.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Did you lose gyros on an ILS? If the ILS needles are still working, are already fully configured, and you are comfortable that the weather will allow you to see the field…why not slide down that ILS and go get a coffee?

Nav guidance, airspeed, and altimeter still working…let’s put this puppy down.

And hopefully trimmed…take your hands of the controls and let the airplane do the hard work!

 

[WDD]

Did you lose gyros on an ILS? If the ILS needles are still working, are already fully configured, and you are comfortable that the weather will allow you to see the field…why not slide down that ILS and go get a coffee?

Nav guidance, airspeed, and altimeter still working…let’s put this puppy down.

Need the AI least you enter a spin. But if you’re not partial panel rusty then just use the turn coordinator and compass.

 

[Ralph Parmenter Bennett]

Research has shown that with gyros inop there is an strong possibility of further disorientation given the clash of conflicting information from the panel between the gyros, pressure instruments, turn indicator etc. I lost an experienced CFII friend who declared an emergency due sudden vacuum failure (not a slow spin down) but was unable to regain control and perished. He was an excellent instrument pilot.
Since his death I keep 2 rubber instrument covers on the center console for use in the event of a gyro instrument failure. Should this happen you likely won't be aware of an unusual attitude. What you may experience will be an 'unrecognizable attitude' and time will be short. The startle factor can cause response delay. Sim and real world are a different experience.
I frequently train for 'No Gyro', vectors requesting stop start turn commands and altitude requests in different transmissions.

 

[texasclouds]

Need the AI least you enter a spin. But if you’re not partial panel rusty then just use the turn coordinator and compass.

I imagine going missed, making large pitch changes, reconfiguring the plane, changing power settings would be immensely more dangerous than continuing on a stabilized approach past FAF in a configured aircraft. Again, my assumption is that the pilot is still trusting his navigation equipment providing lateral and vertical deviation guidance.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I imagine going missed, making large pitch changes, reconfiguring the plane, changing power settings would be immensely more dangerous than continuing on a stabilized approach past FAF in a configured aircraft. Again, my assumption is that the pilot is still trusting his navigation equipment providing lateral and vertical deviation guidance.

Here would be another use for the power/flap/trim combination (appropriate to your airplane) as used in the U of I “180 degree turn” study back in the 50s. Establish that combination for level flight, ensure you’re upright, and then add power to climb.

 

[Pi1otguy]

I imagine going missed, making large pitch changes, reconfiguring the plane, changing power settings would be immensely more dangerous than continuing on a stabilized approach past FAF in a configured aircraft.

Is it still stabilized though? Trying to correct an apparent climbing/descending turn before realizing your AI is a liar can put you near the limits of the approach. Not exactly a UA, but on a bad day it could be

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

Halfway between the FAF and MAP. A little under 2 min left (~2nm to MAP).

I imagine going missed, making large pitch changes, reconfiguring the plane, changing power settings would be immensely more dangerous than continuing on a stabilized approach past FAF in a configured aircraft. Again, my assumption is that the pilot is still trusting his navigation equipment providing lateral and vertical deviation guidance.

@texasclouds - Agreed.

 

[WDD]

Is it still stabilized though? Trying to correct an apparent climbing/descending turn before realizing your AI is a liar can put you near the limits of the approach. Not exactly a UA, but on a bad day it could be

Yea - that’s what I’m thinking. My IR DPE and CFII drilled into me to level the wings with TC, and push the power in. Low and Slow is the danger area especially in IMC. Focus on stabilizing yourself / getting away from spin and stall. Level the wings, push the throttle and climb at Vy. Buys you time to sort it out.

 

[iamtheari]

If you announce partial panel to approach, I feel they'd quietly "declare" for you.

I don’t think you can assume that ATC will declare an emergency for you or know what assistance will make a difference to you. There are fewer pilot-controllers than you would think and they might not understand the significance of partial panel operations. Partial panel in IMC is an emergency and you should declare it, then tell ATC how they can help you. Vectors or no-gyro turns toward VMC or the final approach course. Help you brief the approach plate since you’re busy trying to keep the plane upright.

I can’t watch the video right now but I think this is the one that drove this point home for me.

 

[luvflyin]

The one time (many years ago) I was partial panel in actual IMC, approach gave me a descent earlier than usual into VMC. Did I declare or request anything? No, just reported the failure. But SoCal seems to be pretty helpful and friendly.
Figured they added a note to my file when tower asked if I was alright after landing.

It wouldn’t be like a note in your file. Controllers are required to relay pertinent information to other Controllers. Emergency or not. Maybe the Approach Controller ‘declared’ maybe he didn’t. You wouldn’t necessarily know. There is no requirement for the Controller to advise the pilot that he has exercised his authority to declare an emergency. It’s probably best not to. The pilots busy and hearing that word ‘emergency’ could be distracting. Especially with inexperienced pilots, like maybe a student pilot in difficulty. The point is for the Controller to handle the aircraft as an emergency. Not to advise the pilot that he thinks the pilot is having an emergency.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Dammit! Stop being afraid to declare an emergency! The number of pilots who, it seems, would rather die and leave their families mourning (or worse, take them with them) due to a nonexistent mountain of paperwork or some stupid idea that it will have some imaginary repercussions is downright frightening.

the only mountain of paperwork or repercussions I've seen was with a pilot who did not declare an emergency.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you announce partial panel to approach, I feel they'd quietly "declare" for you.

You feel wrong. Controllers are often not pilots and have no idea what partial panel means. And there's an excellent chance they don't know whether your partial panel is with no backups, partial backups, reversionary mode on a G1000, or backup instruments in a location where looking at them can be an invitation to vertigo.

So if you don't make it clear it's an emergency, if you are relying on ATC to do your PIC job for you, you are betting you have one of the controllers who understands the situation vs. one of the controllers who, after you manage to get into visual conditions, vectors you right back into the clouds to lose control and die (yes that was a real accident).

 

[midlifeflyer]

You're flying an approach in IMC when you suffer a vacuum failure. You revert to your partial panel skills, but it took a while to detect and recover from the failure. You're working to avoid the dreaded "full deflection".

You communicate the failure to approach and hear "Roger Cessna 123, say intensions".

Luckily this was in the sim, but what's next? I requested a climb and to go missed. But supposedly requesting vectors and continuing the approach was also an option.

"N1234X has lost flight instrument. Declaring an emergency, I need a straight and level vector on my current heading for a few minutes."

Once I have some semblance of control, I'll ask for vectors to visual conditions or the best conditions they know of. With luck, good planning, and monitoring for potential diversions while enroute, I know where they are but unless I have an autopilot not affected by the failure, this is not the time to search.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

Once I have some semblance of control, I'll ask for vectors to visual conditions or the best conditions they know of. With luck, good planning, and monitoring for potential diversions while enroute, I know where they are but unless I have an autopilot not affected by the failure, this is not the time to search.

I know with my aircraft, I will lose my autopilot if I lose my primary instruments. I have backup instruments but they can not drive the autopilot.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I know with my aircraft, I will lose my autopilot if I lose my primary instruments. I have backup instruments but they can not drive the autopilot.

I always recommend that, whatever your backup instrumentation is, you need to practice regularly so that you’re proficient in that backup. I should probably actually add that you need to know what will or won’t allow your autopilot to be usable.

I trained a guy in his Baron who later had a dual vacuum pump failure. He subsequently added a standby attitude indicator because he didn’t understand that his autopilot was rate-based, and his panel was intentionally designed so that the autopilot would be functional with a loss of vacuum. I know I told him that, and I know the avionics guy told him that when he upgraded his panel. It just didn’t sink in for whatever reason.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Dammit! Stop being afraid to declare an emergency!

This is the intersection of one's personality and aviation. I don't think it's paperwork fear as much as differing opinions. Quite possible to recognize and address an abnormal situation but not interpret it as an emergency. And what do I expect anyone not in the plane to do about it?

Heck, I'd argue a lot of the emergencies declared by the part 121 guys are literally because the checklist (or company policy?) says so. OTOH, as a GA guy to declare or not to declare often gets rather subjective.

It's like how your version of a traffic stop is you cracking a few jokes with the officer to get some kinda value from the ticket they wrote. But your passenger's version involves fear for her safety.

 

[Martin Pauly]

My instrument instructor told me that part of my weather briefing should include knowing where the nearest VFR conditions could be found - for exactly this scenario. It may not always be close enough to get there with the available fuel, but it all starts with knowing where it is.

- Martin

 

[iamtheari]

My instrument instructor told me that part of my weather briefing should include knowing where the nearest VFR conditions could be found - for exactly this scenario. It may not always be close enough to get there with the available fuel, but it all starts with knowing where it is.

- Martin

I watched a webinar not long ago about IFR tips and one that resonated was having alternate airports picked out for more scenarios than just the destination being below minimums. You can’t pick just one “partial panel alternate” for a flight because the best choice would depend on where you are when the panel dies, but at least knowing in advance which general direction to turn if you are suddenly down to needle, ball, and airspeed would help.

 

[Matthew]

My instrument instructor told me that part of my weather briefing should include knowing where the nearest VFR conditions could be found - for exactly this scenario. It may not always be close enough to get there with the available fuel, but it all starts with knowing where it is.

- Martin

Same here. The first time we filed for a lesson in actual, we went over the weather charts. "Here's where we are, here's where we're going, and here's where the skies are clear."

And that video scenario mentioned an alternate about 10 miles away. Sure, the forecast conditions at the ETA might have met the requirements for an alternate, but there's still the potential of being unable to continue IFR, so now what are you going to do? My PP training had a lot of lessons that contained, "If your engine quits now, where are you going to land?" It kept me sharp on situational awareness of nearest airports and emergency landing spots, and VMC. I hope I can carry that over into the rest of my IR training.

 

[MauleSkinner]

This is the intersection of one's personality and aviation. I don't think it's paperwork fear as much as differing opinions. Quite possible to recognize and address an abnormal situation but not interpret it as an emergency. And what do I expect anyone not in the plane to do about it?

And when I have malfunctions, flying the airplane is my primary concern. It hasn’t crossed my mind to declare an emergency. I have had ATC ask me on three different occasions whether I wanted to declare an emergency. In one case, I did…jet engine came apart, airplane shaking like a wet dog, and were diverting to a Class B airport.

On the other two occasions, I declined…an engine shut down due to loss of oil pressure, I was already #1 for the airport (one VMC, one IMC), and the airports were uncontrolled with no CFR. Didn’t figure it would do me any good.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is the intersection of one's personality and aviation. I don't think it's paperwork fear as much as differing opinions. Quite possible to recognize and address an abnormal situation but not interpret it as an emergency. And what do I expect anyone not in the plane to do about it?

In my example of a pilot not declaring, declaring would have allowed ATC To clear the area, prevent loss of separation, and the resulting certificate action for violating 91.123.

IFR: it's not just about you, but it is.

 

[Pi1otguy]

In my example of a pilot not declaring, declaring would have allowed ATC To clear the area, prevent loss of separation, and the resulting certificate action for violating 91.123.

IFR: it's not just about you, but it is.

Agreed. Like the rest of life it depends.

On the other two occasions, I declined…an engine shut down due to loss of oil pressure, I was already #1 for the airport (one VMC, one IMC), and the airports were uncontrolled with no CFR. Didn’t figure it would do me any good.

I'm still just a single engine guy, but I thought there was something about making turns towards the good engine if possible. Declaring and stating turn preferences might encourage atc to break from their usual traffic flow to accommodate your preferred turn direction.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I'm still just a single engine guy, but I thought there was something about making turns towards the good engine if possible. Declaring and stating turn preferences might encourage atc to break from their usual traffic flow to accommodate your preferred turn direction.

As long as you’re at appropriate speeds, it’s not an issue.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Agreed. Like the rest of life it depends.

Yes.

We often don't know what it depends on or is dependent on it, though. I start from the working proposition that (especially under IFR but in many VFR situations as well) we are working in a system where what we do has an impact on others. If I'm having an inflight problem, I'm definitely not going to be using mental bandwidth to decide whether or not I'm going to impact others nor even to decide whether it will help me personally. So, if I'm having a problem, my default position is to signal it if I can, whether or not I can see a benefit.

 

[guest user]

Halfway between the FAF and MAP. A little under 2 min left (~2nm to MAP).

In a sim, you're probably looking at minimums, but in real life, at this point you should be really close (if not already) breaking out of IMC. A couple of more seconds and you should be in visual conditions.

You requested missed because of concern w/ the instruments, but at that stage you shouldn't be making big changes anyway. You should be pretty stabilized. When you go missed your changing just about everything. Power, trim, usually turning. It seems that going missed in this case increases the potential for disorientation versus continuing the stabilized descent into visual conditions.

If you were still a few minutes out in hard IMC before possibly breaking out, then I completely agree it makes sense to break out of the approach and regroup.

But, as always, this opinion given from the comfort of my couch.