Partial Engine Fail at 400’

[Airracer01]

I recently posted about whether or not to prioritize troubleshooting and/ or securing the airplane in a complete or partial engine failure after takeoff. Everyone said fly the airplane first, get yourself pointed towards a safe landing area and the rest is time permitting. If anyone thinks any differently we can still discuss here as well. Thank you all for responding.

As far as engine failures I have just one last question and I thought I would make a separate post on it. I don’t mean to make too many posts about things related to this.

The common thought process is, if you have partial power and can maintain/ gain altitude, then returning to the airport after taking off is a reasonable idea. If you cannot gain altitude then, depending on the altitude it occurred at, you may have to land off airport. Do not want to risk stretching the glide and turn into a stall/ spin statistic.

My question is you may not have enough power to maintain level flight, but what if you immediately turn an early crosswind when you feel the loss of power? I was able to do this years back when I had partial loss. It was instinctual and I was in safe position before I knew it because I didn’t truck further and further away from the airport at a low altitude, determining if I could maintain/ gain/ lose altitude.

You might be wondering, if it worked for me, why would I be asking. I know each emergency is unique, the next one might not be exactly like this for me, and wanted to hear everyone’s thoughts. Thank you all again and I’ll give it a rest on asking questions.

 

[Salty]

Best glide, pick a landing spot. Then troubleshoot and decide if you want to change the plan. Flying the plane always being highest priority.

 

[M20K]

Hopefully you already know the best options for an Off Airport landing for the Runway you just departed. Even if it is only houses to the Right and more open space to the Left.

If you are still climbing and FLYING as you head towards the better options if you lose the engine. Then continue the trouble shooting and hopefully you'll find something. Now if I find a place to land and I'm still climbing, I'd probably circle that spot until I was high enough to glide back to the Airport.

And for the full engine failure, one other note on this that is not discussed a lot... We're all taught that if the engine fails, PUSH FORWARD HARD to get the nose down. But also, the nano second after you don't need both hands to push, SWITCH THE TANK! Then continue on with Flying, Best Glide, Landing Spot, etc. So even if you don't have time to do any other trouble shooting because of the low altitude, that action may restarts the engine on its own if there was an issue with the first tank.

And if you're reading this and you don't know what I mean by the PUSH HARD, have a talk with your CFI and practice with them a few times. Bottom line is that if you keep the nose high (climb) with no power, you ARE going to stall and potentially Spin. And at 400ft, there is very little or no time to recover. And you've lost whatever "glide" you had to pick a the best spot.

 

[mandm]

ABC

Airspeed
Best landing option
Checklist

I haven’t experienced this so I have no idea how I would act in a real world scenario.

Airspeed is your most important item, and to avoid over banking. As banking increases your stall speed and that increases your chances of a spin. There’s some good YouTube videos talking about the base to final turn and why being coordinated is important.

Ideally, before takeoff, you would have done Checklist, what would you do in a loss of thrust situation.

0-500’ AGL, land straight ahead, attempt to avoid trees (ok to hit trees with your wings too, prepare your door for immediate evacuation)

500-1000’ AGL, possible road to land on?

1000’+ AGL, turn back to airport, declare w ATC, land

Last minute attempts to save the day:
Fuel, Air, Spark

Is your fuel on both, swap tanks, fuel pump on
Try alt air / carb heat?
Magnetos, are you on both, try left or right

 

[MountainDude]

If possible, get a plane with a BRS or install one.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I had a partial power loss right after a night takeoff in a Cessna 172. It wouldn't climb, but we were only a mile or so away from the airport, so I just turned back and landed on the nearest runway (uncontrolled field). It turned out one of the magnetos had failed and was firing way too early, partially burning the fuel before the other one, properly timed, did its job. If I had checked the mags, it would have smoothed out on the good one, but I was in the right seat and simply took the controls and landed. I made a radio call, and it turned out the guy in the office had picked up the phone and dialed 9-1 just in case we didn't make it back all the way.

The Air Force taught us to use M-A-L which stands for maintain control, analyze the situation and take the proper action, and land as soon as practical.

 

[Dana]

We're all taught that if the engine fails, PUSH FORWARD HARD to get the nose down.... if you keep the nose high (climb) with no power, you ARE going to stall and potentially Spin.

Everybody says push hard, but in most well behaved airplanes if you're trimmed or holding back pressure to maintain your desired climb speed and the engine quits, the nose will naturally drop and the airplane will continue to fly at that same speed (try it) unless the pilot interferes by pulling back in a misguided attempt to maintain the climb pitch angle. I imagine the "push hard" advice comes from the desire to make sure the pilot lets the nose come down rather than the need to force it down, better to get light in your seat than stall/spin.

There are usually a few oscillations as the plane finds its new equilibrium, but it will settle down.

That said, there are some airplanes, particularly those with high thrust lines like many ultralights and some LSAs, that do need an aggressive push when the fan stops to compensate for the loss of thrust up high pushing the nose down. And high drag planes, like ultralights and biplanes, may need some help gaining speed before the drag makes you too slow.

 

[MauleSkinner]

There are usually a few oscillations as the plane finds its new equilibrium, but it will settle down.

That’s a key statement IMO. Depending on how close you are to the ground, you might not have room for the airplane to find that equilibrium. Plus, the quicker you set the glide attitude, the quicker you can zero in on your aiming point.

 

[M20K]

If possible, get a plane with a BRS or install one.

An BRS may not be of any use to you. Note that the title says "400' " which I believe is the minimum deployment for the Cirrus (not sure about the others). So if you have engine issues AT 400' and are not still climbing and descend a bit in that "huh what" moment and then descend a bit more in those few more moments to react, you no longer can pull the pretty red handle... A BSR by no means is by no means a departure engine loss savior. Talked to a few Cirrus owners that say it is drilled in NOT to pull of you are too low.

 

[M20K]

There are usually a few oscillations as the plane finds its new equilibrium, but it will settle down.

Think about what you just wrote and tell me you're going to ride out the oscillations at 400 feet. Better yet, go find an old WWII 10,000ft Rwy and try your method. Sure, you'll get down, but with how much control and how much lost altitude in the sink when the plane slows below Vbg and how much forward visibility do you have in that nose up cycle?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a CFI that would agree with you to let the plane oscillate on it's own. All the ones I've flown with over the decades will tell you that at 400ft you PUSH (and I personally say switch tanks), get Vbg and find a place to land. If you can, continue the Emergency Checklist (in your head) to trouble shoot.

 

[MountainDude]

An BRS may not be of any use to you. Note that the title says "400' " which I believe is the minimum deployment for the Cirrus (not sure about the others). So if you have engine issues AT 400' and are not still climbing and descend a bit in that "huh what" moment and then descend a bit more in those few more moments to react, you no longer can pull the pretty red handle... A BSR by no means is by no means a departure engine loss savior. Talked to a few Cirrus owners that say it is drilled in NOT to pull of you are too low.

BRS will work down to 260 ft agl: https://www.flyingmag.com/how-it-works-brs-aircraft-parachute/
If you cannot hold altitude and have no good landing options, then BRS is by far the best option.

 

[Dana]

That’s a key statement IMO. Depending on how close you are to the ground, you might not have room for the airplane to find that equilibrium. Plus, the quicker you set the glide attitude, the quicker you can zero in on your aiming point.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Certainly you should damp out any oscillation to keep it on speed in this situation; I was more describing the behavior if you don't. Though I suppose a faster slipperier airplane will have wider excursions and take longer (too long) to naturally damp out. The slow airplanes I fly settle down quickly.

Better yet, explore the behavior (at a safe altitude, of course) in the plane you normally fly, then you'll know how "hard" you have to push. Pitch [down] as required to maintain airspeed, don't blindly "push hard" into a dive.

 

[Airracer01]

I recently posted about whether or not to prioritize troubleshooting and/ or securing the airplane in a complete or partial engine failure after takeoff. Everyone said fly the airplane first, get yourself pointed towards a safe landing area and the rest is time permitting. If anyone thinks any differently we can still discuss here as well. Thank you all for responding.

As far as engine failures I have just one last question and I thought I would make a separate post on it. I don’t mean to make too many posts about things related to this.

The common thought process is, if you have partial power and can maintain/ gain altitude, then returning to the airport after taking off is a reasonable idea. If you cannot gain altitude then, depending on the altitude it occurred at, you may have to land off airport. Do not want to risk stretching the glide and turn into a stall/ spin statistic.

My question is you may not have enough power to maintain level flight, but what if you immediately turn an early crosswind when you feel the loss of power? I was able to do this years back when I had partial loss. It was instinctual and I was in safe position before I knew it because I didn’t truck further and further away from the airport at a low altitude, determining if I could maintain/ gain/ lose altitude.

You might be wondering, if it worked for me, why would I be asking. I know each emergency is unique, the next one might not be exactly like this for me, and wanted to hear everyone’s thoughts. Thank you all again and I’ll give it a rest on asking questions.

Would you all consider making that early crosswind turn and then evaluate how much performance you have, ie ability to hold altitude or chug ahead and then evaluate? I feel as if the instinct of turning early might be a good idea because it keeps you close to the airport.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Would you all consider making that early crosswind turn and then evaluate how much performance you have, ie ability to hold altitude or chug ahead and then evaluate? I feel as if the instinct of turning early might be a good idea because it keeps you close to the airport.

If the engine is already failing, yes I might make an early turn depending on how high I am. But, making an early turn with fully working engine might mean you're too high to land and need to go all the way around the pattern, so... YMMV.

 

[farangutan]

Due traffic conflict taking off from adjacent runway, I've had to abort three takeoffs, two from about 50-80 ft AGL in the last couple months. My CFI that trained me for commercial stressed the importance of a pre-takeoff brief and I think it is what made those aborted takeoffs successful and without any panic. Just handle it and taxi back and move on. Brief always include which direction I'll turn at low altitude engine failure taking into account winds, terrain, runways, etc.

 

[Airracer01]

If the engine is already failing, yes I might make an early turn depending on how high I am. But, making an early turn with fully working engine might mean you're too high to land and need to go all the way around the pattern, so... YMMV.

That’s what I was thinking too. If there’s too much power you might be in a position where there’s too much altitude like you said. I was more or less wondering in the partial engine failure scenario, if starting that turn early to stay near the airport isn’t a bad idea.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That’s what I was thinking too. If there’s too much power you might be in a position where there’s too much altitude like you said. I was more or less wondering in the partial engine failure scenario, if starting that turn early to stay near the airport isn’t a bad idea.

Too much power? Pull the throttle back. But presuming you're going to climb out on full power as long as the engine is working, the best course of action depends on the climb angle, the runway length, and various other variables as we've discussed in the other thread. If the runway is long and/or you have excellent climb performance (in terms of angle, not rate), You don't need to be in a rush to turn because you'll be pretty high compared to the opposite runway threshold; if you turn early you might need to try to make it all the way around to the runway you departed from. If you climb at a lower angle or the runway is short, you might need to turn back sooner. Of course, glide angle and other variables factor into this as well.

 

[RyanB]

Airspeed
Best landing option
Checklist

I haven’t experienced this so I have no idea how I would act in a real world scenario.

Nah, trust me, there is no time to run a checklist after an engine failure that low. The Archer threw a rod at around 800agl on takeoff a month or so ago. You pitch forward pronto and fly the airplane. Do a quick flow if time permits, but you fly the airplane and don’t worry about anything else.

 

[Airracer01]

Nah, trust me, there is no time to run a checklist after an engine failure that low. The Archer threw a rod at around 800agl on takeoff a month or so ago. You pitch forward pronto and fly the airplane. Do a quick flow if time permits, but you fly the airplane and don’t worry about anything else.

Did the Archer’s prop stop after she chucked a rod or was it a partial failure with just one cylinder failing?

 

[Daleandee]

I had an engine failure on take-off years ago but was likely only 100' or so. Hard slip and landed straight ahead in the muddy field at the end of the runway.

Another take-off had engine roughness but managed to nurse it back towards a mid-field landing.

At such low altitudes there isn't much time to do anything more than pick the best option out in front of you and fly it until it stops moving ...

 

[Nova]

Hopefully you already know the best options for an Off Airport landing for the Runway you just departed. Even if it is only houses to the Right and more open space to the Left.

If you are still climbing and FLYING as you head towards the better options if you lose the engine. Then continue the trouble shooting and hopefully you'll find something. Now if I find a place to land and I'm still climbing, I'd probably circle that spot until I was high enough to glide back to the Airport.

And for the full engine failure, one other note on this that is not discussed a lot... We're all taught that if the engine fails, PUSH FORWARD HARD to get the nose down. But also, the nano second after you don't need both hands to push, SWITCH THE TANK! Then continue on with Flying, Best Glide, Landing Spot, etc. So even if you don't have time to do any other trouble shooting because of the low altitude, that action may restarts the engine on its own if there was an issue with the first tank.

And if you're reading this and you don't know what I mean by the PUSH HARD, have a talk with your CFI and practice with them a few times. Bottom line is that if you keep the nose high (climb) with no power, you ARE going to stall and potentially Spin. And at 400ft, there is very little or no time to recover. And you've lost whatever "glide" you had to pick a the best spot.

You need more down pressure because no engine wind to aid in that? In a 172 there is an electric pump shut off on the ground once engine is primed. Just wondering if it would be a good idea to turn that back on and try a restart after switching to the other tank? PS sorry for stealing this thread but it seemed on topic.

 

[M20K]

You need more down pressure because no engine wind to aid in that? In a 172 there is an electric pump shut off on the ground once engine is primed. Just wondering if it would be a good idea to turn that back on and try a restart after switching to the other tank?

The hard push forward is to get to Glide Speed quickly. Apparently there are statistics that people wait way to long, the plane slows, stalls and spins in. And at 400ft I'd bet an acrobat pilot would be hard pressed to recover. And there was also one comment that the planes nose will drop, but I've never experienced that in the various training I've done. A CFII I flew with a few months ago was big on practicing this and getting the nose over. We actually did a few of them and he had me wait at least 3 second (that realistic time of your mind going "what's going on here?") after he pulled the power. The nose never dropped and I have a heavy 6 cylinder hanging off the front. So the BIG PUSH is a thing to remember and practice every so often.

My comment on the switching tanks is that it is one thing you can do quickly and **might** be the issue. But at 400ft, you do not have the luxury of pulling out the checklist and reading through it item by item. Push and then reach down to switch the tank while you're getting to Vbg and looking for a landing spot is a simple (for me) thing to do that does not distract from the priority of deciding where to land. If you can also find and hit the boost pump, go for it if you want. But I might leave that for after I've found my spot and then I'm checking mags, etc. that's in my memorized Emergency Check List. Up higher, sure, go through the full Checklist. At 400ft your are landing basically RIGHT NOW!

 

[Nova]

The hard push forward is to get to Glide Speed quickly. Apparently there are statistics that people wait way to long, the plane slows, stalls and spins in. And at 400ft I'd bet an acrobat pilot would be hard pressed to recover. And there was also one comment that the planes nose will drop, but I've never experienced that in the various training I've done. A CFII I flew with a few months ago was big on practicing this and getting the nose over. We actually did a few of them and he had me wait at least 3 second (that realistic time of your mind going "what's going on here?") after he pulled the power. The nose never dropped and I have a heavy 6 cylinder hanging off the front. So the BIG PUSH is a thing to remember and practice every so often.

My comment on the switching tanks is that it is one thing you can do quickly and **might** be the issue. But at 400ft, you do not have the luxury of pulling out the checklist and reading through it item by item. Push and then reach down to switch the tank while you're getting to Vbg and looking for a landing spot is a simple (for me) thing to do that does not distract from the priority of deciding where to land. If you can also find and hit the boost pump, go for it if you want. But I might leave that for after I've found my spot and then I'm checking mags, etc. that's in my memorized Emergency Check List. Up higher, sure, go through the full Checklist. At 400ft your are landing basically RIGHT NOW!

Thanks for the detailed reply. Yes stalling at 400 feet, especially a tip stall would almost certainly be a career ender. I’m sure my question about the electric primer but us aircraft specific but it seems it might be wise to turn that on as a last hope to feeding a starving engine fuel