Part Time Airline Pilots

At my airline we have enough qualified FOs to upgrade but none of them want to upgrade in NYC or are waiting until they can hold a line. On our last vacancy we upgraded a new hire. As soon as he finishes new hire OE, he’s going right back to the schoolhouse. We are fat on FOs. Not so much on Captains. Our reserve captains get abused. Some of our reserve FOs are begging for flying.


Sounds like what the envoy recruiter was describing when I had a chat with them last month. It was funny... he was telling me how I would upgrade almost instantly and be in all practical purposes a street captain like it was an awesome deal. It sounded like a fast track to reserve hell in lga to me. With the added bonus of being so junior that it would last for years and years...... no thank you. Guess I’ll keep flying my little crop dusters.
 
Sounds like what the envoy recruiter was describing when I had a chat with them last month. It was funny... he was telling me how I would upgrade almost instantly and be in all practical purposes a street captain like it was an awesome deal. It sounded like a fast track to reserve hell in lga to me. With the added bonus of being so junior that it would last for years and years...... no thank you. Guess I’ll keep flying my little crop dusters.
i do not have access to the envoy seniority list anymore, but with the rate of captains flowing to american, there should be pretty good movement up the list at any base.

bob
 
i do not have access to the envoy seniority list anymore, but with the rate of captains flowing to american, there should be pretty good movement up the list at any base.

bob

From what the recruiter (a line pilot) told me they have a problem with the top parts of the fo list camping there until flow and the bottom part is not eligible for upgrade yet. All of the upgradable new hires are getting captain quick but the guys currently on property will upgrade as soon as they get their 1k and obviously be senior to the new hire street captain. So yes you are correct there is lots of movement but there would still be a significant time where I would have a long list of senior pilots upgrading behind me. I could just camp in the right seat but that’s not viable financially. Even with the bonuses and starting at year 3 on the pay scale I would be 40-60k per year less than my crop dusting job. I would have to take first available upgrade to try and minimize the gap. So like I said I’ll be killing bugs for a while yet.
 
Sounds like what the envoy recruiter was describing when I had a chat with them last month. It was funny... he was telling me how I would upgrade almost instantly and be in all practical purposes a street captain like it was an awesome deal. It sounded like a fast track to reserve hell in lga to me. With the added bonus of being so junior that it would last for years and years...... no thank you. Guess I’ll keep flying my little crop dusters.
The street captain deal wouldn’t be bad if you lived in base. Most of our captains don’t live in base. I expect to be on reserve for at least a year but it doesn’t really matter to me.
 
Not really. How much utilization do you think you can get out of an airplane solely serving Fargo ND? Idle airplanes are bad for business.

Plus you would need more than four crews.

Don't get hung up on a specific example. The point is that the regionals right now have gone to hiring people in their late 50s knowing that they'll get at max 3-5 years of service out of them. The entire 'we can't afford to train someone unless we own their ass for 15 years of servitude' thing is out the window. They are willing to take anyone with the qualifications and the capacity to do the job for now. There would be an entire separate pool of candidates willing to fly for the regionals if they could be assured a regular schedule. 4 days of flying from 5:40am until 3pm every week of the year with 2 weeks off. The same set of 2 or three short hops from their base (wherever that base may be). It would make regional flying no different from any other local transportation job out there. With the way airline schedules work right now, the only way someone with kids can make it work is if they have a stay at home spouse or some other fixed childcare arrangement. Around here you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a realtor or applebees waitress who has an ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI from UND but was not willing to put up with the craziness. Some folks fly for the short hop parcel haulers because you know what your schedule and your routes are going to be. Sure, an airline will always need people they can move around on the chessboard to fill in as the needs arise, but they could also have a group of folks on a fixed schedule, whatever that schedule may be.

But yes, I know. 'It can't be done' because 'it has never been done' and 'we are so different you wouldn't understand'. No I do understand. I work in a 24/7 work environment where 16 slots on spreadsheet have to be filled every day with some times of the day having 12 people on and other times just me. Some of the slots get filled with folks who work 1 FTE, some are .8 .67 or per diem, some work weekdays + weekends and others just do nights. You industry is not unique in having to cover off-hours.
 
So do you pay the regular hour folks less money since they have it "easy" compared to the people with the chaotic/changing schedules? I don't know anyone that wouldn't want that sweet deal - how do you get people to want the weekends, early morning, late night flights?
 
Don't get hung up on a specific example. The point is that the regionals right now have gone to hiring people in their late 50s knowing that they'll get at max 3-5 years of service out of them. The entire 'we can't afford to train someone unless we own their ass for 15 years of servitude' thing is out the window. They are willing to take anyone with the qualifications and the capacity to do the job for now. There would be an entire separate pool of candidates willing to fly for the regionals if they could be assured a regular schedule. 4 days of flying from 5:40am until 3pm every week of the year with 2 weeks off. The same set of 2 or three short hops from their base (wherever that base may be). It would make regional flying no different from any other local transportation job out there. With the way airline schedules work right now, the only way someone with kids can make it work is if they have a stay at home spouse or some other fixed childcare arrangement. Around here you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a realtor or applebees waitress who has an ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI from UND but was not willing to put up with the craziness. Some folks fly for the short hop parcel haulers because you know what your schedule and your routes are going to be. Sure, an airline will always need people they can move around on the chessboard to fill in as the needs arise, but they could also have a group of folks on a fixed schedule, whatever that schedule may be.

But yes, I know. 'It can't be done' because 'it has never been done' and 'we are so different you wouldn't understand'. No I do understand. I work in a 24/7 work environment where 16 slots on spreadsheet have to be filled every day with some times of the day having 12 people on and other times just me. Some of the slots get filled with folks who work 1 FTE, some are .8 .67 or per diem, some work weekdays + weekends and others just do nights. You industry is not unique in having to cover off-hours.
Can’t read all that to be honest. I fly for a major.
If you think you can reinvent the wheel, more power to you. I wish you luck. These guys have been doing it a loooooong time and I promise you the platform is not there to benefit th pilots.

Not sure else I can say other than as a pro, I will do everting I can to get you and yours safely to destination. That doesn’t mean weekend warrior crap, it means if I need to do sim over Christmas in order to fly your family safely on New Years, it will be done.
We are professionals.
 
Can’t read all that to be honest. I fly for a major.
If you think you can reinvent the wheel, more power to you. I wish you luck. These guys have been doing it a loooooong time and I promise you the platform is not there to benefit th pilots.

Not sure else I can say other than as a pro, I will do everting I can to get you and yours safely to destination. That doesn’t mean weekend warrior crap, it means if I need to do sim over Christmas in order to fly your family safely on New Years, it will be done.
We are professionals.

Best post on this thread.
 
Can’t read all that to be honest. I fly for a major.
If you think you can reinvent the wheel, more power to you. I wish you luck. These guys have been doing it a loooooong time and I promise you the platform is not there to benefit th pilots.

Not sure else I can say other than as a pro, I will do everting I can to get you and yours safely to destination. That doesn’t mean weekend warrior crap, it means if I need to do sim over Christmas in order to fly your family safely on New Years, it will be done.
We are professionals.

So you are not willing to think. So much for professional.
 
So you are not willing to think. So much for professional.
Huh???
That’s a bit of a low blow.
We can go toe to toe. I’m willing to do that.
Up until now I truly thought this was a respectful disagreement between two nice guys.
But, if you you want to take it to another level, I’m all yours.
 
In the 90s several regionals went with basing their crews at the outstations to save money. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, no one does this anymore. I know you (weilke) think you've got the answer but I history shows that outstation basing just isn't economical.
 
In the 90s several regionals went with basing their crews at the outstations to save money. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, no one does this anymore. I know you (weilke) think you've got the answer but I history shows that outstation basing just isn't economical.
If this was/is the answer, we would see this widespread.
 
... willing to fly for the regionals if they could be assured a regular schedule.

That’s already offered in multiple ways. Seniority at the carrier being number one in your airline example, but flying cargo or specialized flights works too.

What’s the weird hang-up on thinking the regional airlines are the only place someone who needs a particular base and schedule would look for work flying airplanes?

I have a buddy who flew for almost ten years between the same four airports. Passenger service even. Was specialized. Special equipment, special location. Wasn’t hard for him to find the job. He ended up very senior and their safety specialist as well, small company, lots of hats available to wear. He left there to do a startup thing in Croatia which kinda worked and kinda didn’t - government corruption. Now he flies fire jumpers into forest fires.

He’s had the most regular schedule of anyone I know for decades until the fire jumper thing, and even that is more like military TDY before he heads home from the messes in Oregon and California if and when the fire season ever stops this year.
 
Don't get hung up on a specific example. The point is that the regionals right now have gone to hiring people in their late 50s knowing that they'll get at max 3-5 years of service out of them. The entire 'we can't afford to train someone unless we own their ass for 15 years of servitude' thing is out the window. They are willing to take anyone with the qualifications and the capacity to do the job for now. There would be an entire separate pool of candidates willing to fly for the regionals if they could be assured a regular schedule. 4 days of flying from 5:40am until 3pm every week of the year with 2 weeks off. The same set of 2 or three short hops from their base (wherever that base may be). It would make regional flying no different from any other local transportation job out there. With the way airline schedules work right now, the only way someone with kids can make it work is if they have a stay at home spouse or some other fixed childcare arrangement. Around here you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a realtor or applebees waitress who has an ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI from UND but was not willing to put up with the craziness. Some folks fly for the short hop parcel haulers because you know what your schedule and your routes are going to be. Sure, an airline will always need people they can move around on the chessboard to fill in as the needs arise, but they could also have a group of folks on a fixed schedule, whatever that schedule may be.

But yes, I know. 'It can't be done' because 'it has never been done' and 'we are so different you wouldn't understand'. No I do understand. I work in a 24/7 work environment where 16 slots on spreadsheet have to be filled every day with some times of the day having 12 people on and other times just me. Some of the slots get filled with folks who work 1 FTE, some are .8 .67 or per diem, some work weekdays + weekends and others just do nights. You industry is not unique in having to cover off-hours.
The reason it can't be done is there is no way to build that kind of schedule and get all the flights covered without bankrupting the company. It would cost a fortune in training costs and crew movements to get stuff done. Unless the airline stopped selling tickets for late nite/early morning flights it just won't work. The airline doesn't have to own you for years to get their moneys worth in the training but they do have to work you full time to get their investment out. There is no such thing as part time airline pilot. Just doesn't work no matter how much you think it will. The airline model is all about being efficient and getting the most out of everyone and everything. Part time pilot with a fixed schedule that never changes is the complete opposite of what it takes to make that train roll. If that is not the kind of job you want then don't be an airline pilot.
 
Huh???
That’s a bit of a low blow.
We can go toe to toe. I’m willing to do that.
Up until now I truly thought this was a respectful disagreement between two nice guys.
But, if you you want to take it to another level, I’m all yours.

I am sorry. After I wrote it I thought it was unnecessarily snarky. Should have deleted it before I went to work.

Yet in the end you did confirm what I said in my first post on the matter. Alternate schedules don't exist because people in the industry like it just the way it is and the pain to recruit at the junior level doesn't yet seem to be sufficient for the companies to come up with something better.
 
I am sorry. After I wrote it I thought it was unnecessarily snarky. Should have deleted it before I went to work.

Yet in the end you did confirm what I said in my first post on the matter. Alternate schedules don't exist because people in the industry like it just the way it is and the pain to recruit at the junior level doesn't yet seem to be sufficient for the companies to come up with something better.
Please go manage an airline and revolutionize the industry.
It’s time tested. But, if you have a better idea go ahead and make your billions.
I’m sure if the current experts could, they would.
 
I am sorry. After I wrote it I thought it was unnecessarily snarky. Should have deleted it before I went to work.

Yet in the end you did confirm what I said in my first post on the matter. Alternate schedules don't exist because people in the industry like it just the way it is and the pain to recruit at the junior level doesn't yet seem to be sufficient for the companies to come up with something better.

Confirmation bias, not confirmation.
 
The reason it can't be done is there is no way to build that kind of schedule and get all the flights covered without bankrupting the company. It would cost a fortune in training costs and crew movements to get stuff done. Unless the airline stopped selling tickets for late nite/early morning flights it just won't work. The airline doesn't have to own you for years to get their moneys worth in the training but they do have to work you full time to get their investment out. There is no such thing as part time airline pilot. Just doesn't work no matter how much you think it will. The airline model is all about being efficient and getting the most out of everyone and everything. Part time pilot with a fixed schedule that never changes is the complete opposite of what it takes to make that train roll. If that is not the kind of job you want then don't be an airline pilot.
Nope. But whatever. Live in your dreamworld and build your own route structure. Many have tried and we wind up back here at 15 days a month, living on the road.
 
Nope. But whatever. Live in your dreamworld and build your own route structure. Many have tried and we wind up back here at 15 days a month, living on the road.
Keep up the great work, Kritch! Don’t waste your time arguing with someone who shouldn’t be debating a topic that he knows nothing about.
 
Keep up the great work, Kritch! Don’t waste your time arguing with someone who shouldn’t be debating a topic that he knows nothing about.

And the part about regionals hiring people in their 50s, they've always done that, as well as major airlines. How do I know that? Spent 24 years at a regional. Hell I've seen pilots in their late 50s-early 60s get hired at Delta.
 
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