Part 61 versus Part 141 PPL training

[ajmarks]

I'm in the early stages of getting a PPL (I visited a local FBO, met some CFIs, took an intro flight) and have a question about Part 61 vs Part 141 training.

As I understand it, Part 61 are the standards used when someone wants to work with a CFI who's not associated with a training school and Part 141 are the standards for a flight school. Is this correct? What's confusing to me is the flight school syllabus I have lists the beginning stages as "Part 61" and the latter stages as "Part 141". Also, it seems like Part 141 requires dedicated ground school instruction and Part 61 does not.

 

[warthog1984]

Welcome.

"Part 61" and "Part 141" training will both get you your PPL.

Part 61 is traditional training: you go down to the local flight school, they set you up with an instructor for plane & ground training, and at the end you take a checkride with a designated examiner. Training varies as you need it or can setup.

Part 141 is a more structured version of training: a flight school has a prepared and FAA-approved curriculum, you may have one or several instructors, and you check off all the boxes in a certain order going through. ?30 hours? of specific ground training is included. At the end, you take a final checkride with an in-house examiner. At the higher levels (Instrument Rating and up), Part 141 training waives some of the requirements that Part 61 training imposes.

FWIW a flight school can offer training under either Part 61 or 141 depending on what works best for each customer.

 

[Engine]

If you can find a good instructor who you think is a good person and intelligent/capable then I highly suggest you go 61.

If you can not then go 141.

 

[poadeleted20]

As I understand it, Part 61 are the standards used when someone wants to work with a CFI who's not associated with a training school and Part 141 are the standards for a flight school. Is this correct?

No, it is not correct. Part 141 is the set of regulations which apply to an "approved" school, allowing reduced flight hour requirements when the school meets a wide range of standards (see that section of your FAR/AIM book) including instructor qualifications, formal training course syllabi, training documentation, facilities, and training review/oversight by senior instructors.

While it isn't possible for an instructor not "associated with a training school" to give training under Part 141 (unless that instructor has his/her own one-person school meeting all those requirements), it is quite common for flight schools to choose not to go for Part 141 certification, or for Part 141-certified schools to offer training under both Part 141 for those who want the reduced requirements in return for additional regimentation.

What's confusing to me is the flight school syllabus I have lists the beginning stages as "Part 61" and the latter stages as "Part 141".

As noted above, most Part 141-certified flight schools offer both Part 61 and Part 141 training programs. However, I've never heard of a school syllabus that includes starting training under Part 61 followed by completion under Part 141. I'd be interested to see the syllabus about which you speak.

Also, it seems like Part 141 requires dedicated ground school instruction and Part 61 does not.

That is correct. It's part of the additional standardization and documentation of training under 141 which the FAA requires in order to reduce the flight hour requirements.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you can find a good instructor who you think is a good person and intelligent/capable then I highly suggest you go 61.

If you can not then go 141.

There are plenty of poor instructors in 141 schools, too. The Part 141 certification is not a guarantee of high quality training, only that your training will be conducted under higher standards of organization and documentation.

 

[mtuomi]

A big reason many schools want to be Part 141 certified is that Part 61-only schools cannot issue a I-20 form to sponsor a visa for a foreign student.

 

[Engine]

There are plenty of poor instructors in 141 schools, too. The Part 141 certification is not a guarantee of high quality training, only that your training will be conducted under higher standards of organization and documentation.

That is not why I recommended 141 but I see how you could make that assumption. I said that because at least at a 141 you won't have to start from square one if you change instructors because they are terrible instructors. My personal experience has been that 141 schools seem to have both the best and the worst instructors (the greater extremes) while 61 schools seem to have more mediocre instructors. This is just my personal experience with several flight schools in the last three years.

 

[murphey]

A big reason many schools want to be Part 141 certified is that Part 61-only schools cannot issue a I-20 form to sponsor a visa for a foreign student.

Much easier for a student in a Part 141 program to get financing (loans) for training.

 

[poadeleted20]

That is not why I recommended 141 but I see how you could make that assumption. I said that because at least at a 141 you won't have to start from square one if you change instructors because they are terrible instructors.

The same is true under Part 61, and it's true whether you started under 141 or 61. Further, under Part 61, you get full credit towards the flight training hour requirements for previous flying. OTOH, if you change Part 141 schools (as opposed to changing instructors within the same school), or go to a 141 school after doing some 61 training, the next school can only give you partial credit for previous training hours.

 

[ja_user]

Other than Financing or I-20, another reason you might consider part 141 is if you need the structure.

A good CFI doing part 61 can be far more flexible though, and I would be surprised if 141 is really going to get you your license quicker. The CFI would be the key.

 

[murphey]

The same is true under Part 61, and it's true whether you started under 141 or 61. Further, under Part 61, you get full credit towards the flight training hour requirements for previous flying. OTOH, if you change Part 141 schools (as opposed to changing instructors within the same school), or go to a 141 school after doing some 61 training, the next school can only give you partial credit for previous training hours.

OTOH if the Part 61 school is clueless, it's an argument about the previous hours.

Personally, I'm tired of newbie instructors learning to teach on my checkbook.

 

[nosehair]

OTOH if the Part 61 school is clueless, it's an argument about the previous hours.

Personally, I'm tired of newbie instructors learning to teach on my checkbook.

Me too, but anytime anyone proposes additional training/experience requirements, the trainees/pilot wannabees cry out in protest. And so it is.

 

[poadeleted20]

OTOH if the Part 61 school is clueless, it's an argument about the previous hours.

What possible argument could there be about counting hours earned previously in a 141 program towards the 61.109 requirements? I think the instructor claiming that would be well beyond "clueless" and somewhere into "lacking the competence to hold a Flight Instructor certificate" to take that position.

 

[ajmarks]

In addition to what everyone said, I found the following article:

Part 61 vs. Part 141

 

[Iceman21]

I did my flight training at a 141 school. And I've instructed at both 141 schools and 61 schools. It's not only the instructor (and school) but the student as well. I was in a 90 day program that I completed in 88 days. One of the schools that I worked at was structured similar to a 141 school but didn't have the designation but they could have easily attained 141 certification. The other school is on the other end of the spectrum where the students progress and program are almost the entire responsibility of the instructor.

I see the pros and cons to both schools and would say that neither are the best and neither are the worst, it really depends on the preference and need of the student getting the training.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

 

[Clip4]

As I understand it, Part 61 are the standards used when someone wants to work with a CFI who's not associated with a training school and Part 141 are the standards for a flight school. Is this correct? Also, it seems like Part 141 requires dedicated ground school instruction and Part 61 does not.

A Part 141 school is a business that excepts FAA oversight to be able to advertise they are an FAA Approved School, allow students to use grants/loans, and offer their students enrolled under the 141 program the opportunity to complete their training with about 10% less flight hours than provided in Part 61. The same school may train students under Part 61. The training and completion standards are the same for both 61/141. If the student does not obtain the required skills within the minimum hours, he continues training until he meets the standards. Generally, 141 students complete a classroom ground school. Most Part 61 students also complete classroom ground school, but some complete video ground schools or complete home study supervised by their CFI. If you select an FBO with a 141 school, and are able to attend the ground school, there is no reason to not to enroll Part 141.

Hope that helps.

 

[poadeleted20]

A Part 141 school is a business that excepts FAA oversight to be able to advertise they are an FAA Approved School, allow students to use grants/loans, and offer their students enrolled under the 141 program the opportunity to complete their training with about 10% less flight hours than provided in Part 61. The same school may train students under Part 61.

That's a bit misleading. While many state and Federal agencies may provide financial assistance only if the trainee is in a 141 program, it usually takes more than 141 approval for the school to be accepted by those agencies, and financial assistance is not a consideration in the FAA's development of the 141 rules or how the FAA deals with 141 schools.

The training and completion standards are the same for both 61/141.

That's also a bit misleading. While it's true that for any given certificate/rating, the knowledge and proficiency required to complete a 141 program are the same as passing a Part 61 practical test, there are substantial differences in the required experience and training hours. In many cases (especially ground training ), the 141 requirements are far more demanding and rigid.

If the student does obtain the required skills within the minimum hours, he continues training until he meets the standards.

True.

Generally, 141 students complete a classroom ground school.

Pretty much all 141 certificate and additional category rating programs have a specific minimum number of formal ground training classroom hours.

Most Part 61 students also complete classroom ground school,

I don't think "most" Part 61 students do that.

but some complete video ground schools or complete home study supervised by their CFI.

While there is a requirement for an instructor endorsement to take the writtens for most pilot certificates, there is no requirement for Part 61 knowledge training to be supervised by a CFI, and I suspect most trainees these days do so without such supervision.

If you select an FBO with a 141 school, and are able to attend the ground school, there is no reason to not to enroll Part 141.

There are many reasons to go 141 rather than 61, including financial aid requirements and reduced flight training hours. Simply attending a ground school operated by a school that also has 141 approval does not accomplish that.

 

[Bonchie]

My school is Part 61. They use the Gleim curriculum and follow it for dual instruction. They also have a ground school.

Both instructors I use have 5,000+ hours (one was the co-pilot on the initial test flight of the C-17, the other flew Huey's in Vietnam) and are highly competent.

My only point is, Part 61 doesn't always mean you are getting some wet behind the ears CFI with 300 hours and no other guidance.

Check out every school around you, weight the cost benefits, meet the instructors and know their qualifications, etc.