Part 135 Question

forseth11

forseth11

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Forseth11
Let me create a scenario:
A plane is set to fly out of airport X.
Bob charter this flight for Monday at 7:00 AM to any destination of his choosing.
Bob is taking 1 friend.

The plane has 6 seats.
There is one pilot, so at the moment, 3 seats are filled.

Can the administrator sell the 3 remaining seats to 3 other people, or will this make this flight under part 121 because it will become scheduled, or is it still part 135 because this flight is happening because Bob "demanded" it?

If that is going to fall under part 121, could Bob invite 3 more people to share the charter cost via the company's website, or does that also make this part 121?

Other info:
- The plane has less than 10 seats
- The plane weighs less than 7500lbs gross.
- The plane is a single turbine prop

Thank you for the responses guys!
 
Because we don't live in a communist state the administrator can't sell any seats on my plane.
 
forseth11 said:
Let me create a scenario:
A plane is set to fly out of airport X.
Bob charter this flight for Monday at 7:00 AM to any destination of his choosing.
Bob is taking 1 friend.

The plane has 6 seats.
There is one pilot, so at the moment, 3 seats are filled.

Can the administrator sell the 3 remaining seats to 3 other people, or will this make this flight under part 121 because it will become scheduled, or is it still part 135 because this flight is happening because Bob "demanded" it?

If that is going to fall under part 121, could Bob invite 3 more people to share the charter cost via the company's website, or does that also make this part 121?

Other info:
- The plane has less than 10 seats
- The plane weighs less than 7500lbs gross.
- The plane is a single turbine prop

Thank you for the responses guys!
Click to expand...

This is not a "scheduled " flight. Part 135.
 
Your scenario sounds like this a charter. So the person hiring the aircraft and pilot, (the customer) would have control of the seats. All are his/hers to use or not use. The charter operator could have scheduled commuter authority under part 135, but those that do often sell charters also.

On the other hand, if this is a scheduled flight under the operators commuter authority, the remaining 3 seats are the operators to sell. But Bob could buy all the seats if he wanted to bring more friends.

Your aircraft specs would work under Part 135.

I flew Part 135 stuff in Alaska for many years. It was not unusual to have only 1 or 2 people on a charter that would hold 5 plus pilot. But they chartered the plane, so we couldn't sell any seats the customer didn't use. Nor could we fill it up with freight.
 
Htaylor said:
Your scenario sounds like this a charter. So the person hiring the aircraft and pilot, (the customer) would have control of the seats. All are his/hers to use or not use. The charter operator could have scheduled commuter authority under part 135, but those that do often sell charters also.

On the other hand, if this is a scheduled flight under the operators commuter authority, the remaining 3 seats are the operators to sell. But Bob could buy all the seats if he wanted to bring more friends.

Your aircraft specs would work under Part 135.

I flew Part 135 stuff in Alaska for many years. It was not unusual to have only 1 or 2 people on a charter that would hold 5 plus pilot. But they chartered the plane, so we couldn't sell any seats the customer didn't use. Nor could we fill it up with freight.
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Thank you!

Could the operator charter the flight as on demand, but the person buying the charter to a specific location can choose to [buy all then sell rest] or [buy all, but have operator sell the rest].
 
Aren't scheduled flights with 9 or less pax part 135 anyway?

A scheduled flight is one where the operator publishes a schedule of flights and the plane leaves even if there is only one passenger. What you describe is an on-demand charter and there is no restriction against others riding along with or without cost share.
 
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weilke said:
Aren't scheduled flights with 9 or less pax part 135 anyway?

A scheduled flight is one where the operator publishes a schedule of flights and the plane leaves even if there is only one passenger. What you describe is an on-demand charter and there is no restriction against others riding along with or without cost share.
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From my understanding, yes, as long as one plane does not schedule a flight between the same two airports more than 5 times per week, and if a twin is scheduled it goes from 1200 hours to ATP required.
 
It remains a Part 135 flight, but I have never known of a 135 flight that "sells" seats to other people. The way 135 typically works is you call up the charter and say "I need to go from A to B at this time on this day." A plane shows up and you make the trip.

Also, a lot of 135 flights cover routes that airlines don't cover. That's the appeal of it (and GA in general) - you can fly direct from where you are to where you're going. Most of the places I flew on 135 didn't even have airline service at all.
 
In the aviation world "the administrator" has a very specific meaning. Something you would learn if you would read the applicable CFRs.
 
When I was hired at ASA (commuter airline) we operated scheduled service under 135 with Embraer 110s and 120s, and Dehaviland Dash 7s under 121. Think the E110s had 15 or 19 seats and no FA, E120 had 30 seats and a FA.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It remains a Part 135 flight, but I have never known of a 135 flight that "sells" seats to other people. The way 135 typically works is you call up the charter and say "I need to go from A to B at this time on this day." A plane shows up and you make the trip.

Also, a lot of 135 flights cover routes that airlines don't cover. That's the appeal of it (and GA in general) - you can fly direct from where you are to where you're going. Most of the places I flew on 135 didn't even have airline service at all.
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Okay. Yea I noticed that the airline market has a giant gap for small towns or non-hub airports, and other than just being a way to fly privately like a rich guy, I wanted to make a way to fly a family of 3-5 cheaper or equivalent to airline places near them. Also more convient.
 
You can operate "scheduled 135" if you have 9 seats or less. Our airport is served by a carrier operating Cessna Caravans that does just that. I think there is some additional language to the 135 manual and certificate if you are running a scheduled service and selling tickets openly.
 
forseth11 said:
Okay. Yea I noticed that the airline market has a giant gap for small towns or non-hub airports, and other than just being a way to fly privately like a rich guy, I wanted to make a way to fly a family of 3-5 cheaper or equivalent to airline places near them. Also more convient.
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If you had a 135 op, I think you might be able to make something work. Basically folks have to call in and you can try to schedule everyone together. I don't see why you couldn't, just would have to make sure you have the demand.
 
Good luck! Starting a successful 135 isn't an easy thing, but I have an old friend that did so with a King Air F90, and years later is still going strong with a half dozen Citations as well. But he (and his partner) have a *ton* of sweat equity in it as well. The paperwork alone is enough to give me nightmares. :)

Also, in the MX thread you mention a variety of piston powered airplanes. Keep in mind that you're going to need to pay your pilots, and IFR 135 is going to require them to have flight times that make them competitive for other jobs. That might mean you end up paying these guys more than you'd like to fly say, an SR22, since you're not pulling them from the ranks of newly certificated commercial guys that are just happy to be building time. It's not as big a deal when you're dealing with turbines or jets, but on the low end piston side the labor costs could end up pricing you out of the market.
 
I think your main problem would be finding a number of parties who want to fly to a certain destination at the same time. You would need to consider what you would charge if you couldn't fill the airplane, and if the party who had already booked the flight would be willing to pay that.
 
forseth11 said:
Okay. Yea I noticed that the airline market has a giant gap for small towns or non-hub airports, and other than just being a way to fly privately like a rich guy, I wanted to make a way to fly a family of 3-5 cheaper or equivalent to airline places near them. Also more convient.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that won't work. It's expensive any way you slice it. And that's not all the FAAs fault, it just costs a lot to operate small aircraft (less than 70 - 110 seats) in a reliable manner.
 
Everskyward said:
I think your main problem would be finding a number of parties who want to fly to a certain destination at the same time. You would need to consider what you would charge if you couldn't fill the airplane, and if the party who had already booked the flight would be willing to pay that.
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I am working on that. I have all the operating costs calculated out for selected airplanes, but I over estimated on the maintenance cost, so I posted a thread here for help being more precise.

weilke said:
Yeah, that won't work. It's expensive any way you slice it. And that's not all the FAAs fault, it just costs a lot to operate small aircraft (less than 70 - 110 seats) in a reliable manner.
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I with my over estimated cost per mile, my potential service could be anywhere from $30 - $300 CHEAPER than an airline going to the same place (Used cheapest airline on their cheapest day for this and one way tickets). The thing is, we would not be that far, and all places would be within 2:30 to 4 hour drives, but some people may find it more convenient to use a service like this which can be cheaper than airlines short distance to and from non-hub airports.
 
forseth11 said:
I with my over estimated cost per mile, my potential service could be anywhere from $30 - $300 CHEAPER than an airline going to the same place (Used cheapest airline on their cheapest day for this and one way tickets). The thing is, we would not be that far, and all places would be within 2:30 to 4 hour drives, but some people may find it more convenient to use a service like this which can be cheaper than airlines short distance to and from non-hub airports.
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How do you treat the deadhead legs? How many aircraft/pilots will you need to have the required availability of that type of on-demand service? Is your cost the fully loaded expense of a part 135 operation (including salaries for director of operations (DO), director of maintenance (DM) and pilot?

It's easy to make money on a fully loaded flight out when you happen to have passengers for the return leg. It's not so easy to make money with 3/9 seats filled outbound and empty return.

There are already plenty of rural 135 operators. They make their money of
- 1-2 local businesses who need a weekly charter but are not big enough to have their own flight department
- a fixed price contract to pick up a radioactive package every wed at 4am in 'Bigcity' and to deliver it to 'St Elsewhere memorial hospital'.
- a goverment contract that pays on a regular basis (fire survey....)
.
.
.
- once a year the local welldriller hires you to fly his mom to 'Bigcity' airport to transfer to her business class flight to Palm Springs.

The regular folks who take a flight in the 1-2hr range to avoid driving are extremely rare. The smallest aircraft that is not a 'rickety death trap' in your customers perception is a King Air 200 or Pilatus.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
It remains a Part 135 flight, but I have never known of a 135 flight that "sells" seats to other people. The way 135 typically works is you call up the charter and say "I need to go from A to B at this time on this day." A plane shows up and you make the trip.

Also, a lot of 135 flights cover routes that airlines don't cover. That's the appeal of it (and GA in general) - you can fly direct from where you are to where you're going. Most of the places I flew on 135 didn't even have airline service at all.
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That's an on-demand operation.

A commuter operation can sell Part 135 seats based on a schedule, as long as the airplane has under 9 seats and less than 17,500 lb.

See Surf Air. That's what they do. Their whole fleet is PC-12s.

http://www.surfair.com/us/schedule/
 
forseth11 said:
I am working on that. I have all the operating costs calculated out for selected airplanes, but I over estimated on the maintenance cost, so I posted a thread here for help being more precise.


I with my over estimated cost per mile, my potential service could be anywhere from $30 - $300 CHEAPER than an airline going to the same place (Used cheapest airline on their cheapest day for this and one way tickets). The thing is, we would not be that far, and all places would be within 2:30 to 4 hour drives, but some people may find it more convenient to use a service like this which can be cheaper than airlines short distance to and from non-hub airports.
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Have you calculated the costs of getting and keeping a part 135 cert? It's a pretty expensive proposition. A single plane, single pilot operation can be done with much less paperwork and associated cost, after that, costs soar. GOM outlining pilot training, maintenance procedures, and pretty much all aspects of your operation. Ops specs that must be approved by your POI. Part135 Ops specs are pretty cookie cutter with approved changes made for your operation. I would talk to some that have been successful in the 135 arena to get a good idea of what it all entails. It isn't easy , cheap or always profitable. You can buy a 135 certificate that someone has for sale, but you'll still have to have all the paperwork and aircraft conformity inspections done along with approved pilot training. Make no mistake, it's a daunting task to start a 135 operation from scratch. Minimum 1 year to get paperwork in place and approved. Once up and running, you'll be under your POI's microscope for a while until they trust you enough to look at someone else for a minute or two. It would really help you to work in the 135 world for a bit to see what it all entails.

As weilke said, the money that keeps you going isn't from the butts in the seats, it's from having some sort of cash flow beyond that. One of my former Alaska employers gave up most of their freight contracts (UPS, USPS) and now they are really struggling to stay afloat financially using just paying pax and small amounts of freight. Something that can add significantly to revenue stream are sightseeing flights if you are in an area where that would be of interest.

All said. Best of luck.
 
Q: How do you make a small fortune in aviation?

A: Start with a large fortune.
 
Commonplace at a company I worked for years ago. It's called "shared charter". Link two places that are commonly flown, and run a limited schedule.
 
If you do it right, can't you get it subsidized as essential air service? I think there are distance requirements from hub airports, but if you can find a place that has a company or two with tons of consultants coming in every week, you've got it made.

I used to ride a Caravan to El Dorado, Arkansas on a regular basis. I think that was their deal. All the seats were subsidized whether they had a paying customer or not.
 
aggie06 said:
If you do it right, can't you get it subsidized as essential air service? I think there are distance requirements from hub airports, but if you can find a place that has a company or two with tons of consultants coming in every week, you've got it made.

I used to ride a Caravan to El Dorado, Arkansas on a regular basis. I think that was their deal. All the seats were subsidized whether they had a paying customer or not.
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I'm considering that. My dad works for JetBlue and they pay a service like this to fly people from small towns around their hub airports to the hub, so they can have more customers and they can pay cheaply.
 
forseth11 said:
I'm considering that. My dad works for JetBlue and they pay a service like this to fly people from small towns around their hub airports to the hub, so they can have more customers and they can pay cheaply.
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Essential air service is paid by the government, not the associated major airline.
 
EAS is just another form of welfare. Sure it helps some aviation companies but it is what it is and I am against those sort of programs.
 
SkyDog58 said:
EAS is just another form of welfare. Sure it helps some aviation companies but it is what it is and I am against those sort of programs.
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We did them for awhile and seemed like all we ever had was a handful of passengers. Then when the company pulled out of those markets the city was all up in arms because we were leaving. Well, no one utilizing the service so company moved the planes to other markets. even though it was guaranteed the company made more money elsewhere.
 
The EAS program is not as simple as you think, and the requirements for a community to stay in the program have gotten stricter. There are limits on distance from a hub, and on subsidy per passenger. Not to mention, the program is capped and no new communities are allowed to enter.

Yes it is a subsidy and has seen its fair share of abuse, but it does have some merit. Without it, there are many communities in this country that would be several hours drive from a commercial airport. It simply is not profitable enough to provide this service otherwise. And without getting too political, it is a type of subsidy that produces tangible results in economic impact whereas some welfare produces none.
 
And let me clarify what I mean by abuse. There were many communities that had been admitted to the program simply because they were the home of certain key officials. Communities that were very short distances from major cities, or services that were extremely underutilized but still subsidized because of political might.
 
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