Part 135 Maintenance Questions

[forseth11]

Hello friends.

I am currently writing a business plan for a part 135 operation. I am a pilot, so I know and understand the rules for pilots in part 91 and part 135, but I know about nothing about part 135 maintenance requirements.

My operation would consist of planes with 9 seats or less and they will weigh less than 7,500lbs.

My questions:

1. How much do you charge per hour? (I'm trying to find the average or at least make some data points for planning)
2. Where can I get or learn about the approved maintenance program(s) for a Piper Aerostar?
3. I understand that planes operating under part 135 with 9 seats or less must comply with parts 91, 43, 135.415, 135.417, 135.421, and 135.422. Other than those 135.xxx parts listed, is there anything substantial I should be aware of for the planning stage?
4. My current mechanic told me that running a part 135 operation turns any recommended maintenance into a requirement. Just to double check, is this correct?

Thank you everyone! In case I sound like a complete fool, I have read subpart A for part 135 and subpart A for part 119 in detail, but I am STILL working my way through the rest of those parts and taking notes for anything I did not expect or may change part of my plans.

 

[Brad Z]

Assuming this is not an exercise for a business class, I would recommend you hire a part 135 consultant who is intimately familiar with the 135 certification process. It is a complex process and feeling your way through it or relying on free internet advice may prove very costly. If you haven't done so already, read up on the FAA's guidance and start from there.

 

[weilke]

Why an aerostar ?

 

[forseth11]

Assuming this is not an exercise for a business class, I would recommend you hire a part 135 consultant who is intimately familiar with the 135 certification process. It is a complex process and feeling your way through it or relying on free internet advice may prove very costly. If you haven't done so already, read up on the FAA's guidance and start from there.

A 135 consultan could be costly, but I will consider it. I'm not relying on the internet, I have quite a few contacts who know this stuff, but I am trying to hear what other people say rathar than depend on a few people. And I have gone through most of the FAA's guidance and I have watched their 5 hour seminar on operation control.

Why an aerostar ?

It is the type of airplane I will be using for my operations. I would rather not disclose why.

 

[bnt83]

Why an aerostar ?

Don't some of those require pulling the engine out to change a cylinder?

 

[forseth11]

Don't some of those require pulling the engine out to change a cylinder?

I don't know because I don't know how to find the recommended maintenance program for the plane. It probably comes with the plane's books when and if I buy one.

However, I have budgeted $176,000 to overhaul both engines. I did some research online and I doubled the quoted prices online, so this should be an overestimate.

I also budgeted a total of $140,000 for maintenance costs per airplane per year.

 

[RyanB]

How much do you charge per hour? (I'm trying to find the average or at least make some data points for planning)

That's a very broad question. How much does an Aerostar cost per hour? There's still quite a bit of missing information you'll need before you can assess this.

 

[weilke]

Don't some of those require pulling the engine out to change a cylinder?

Well, hopefully, changing cylinders is not an everyday occurence.

A 40 year old oddball plane with multiple model changes and a cramped cabin would be my last choice to build a charter outfit. I have the current FAA certificate file on my laptop, I'll check tonight but I wouldn't be suprised if there is not a single one on a certificate left.

 

[forseth11]

That's a very broad question. How much does an Aerostar cost per hour? There's still quite a bit of missing information you'll need before you can assess this.

No I mean as a mechanic. How much do mechanics charge per hour.
I already have the hourly cost of the airplane figured out.

 

[coloradobluesky]

One thing about 135 ops. Unless it is a new plane or a pristine older plane with pristine logbooks and no add ons that arent is TOTALLY FAA documented, getting an older plane put on a 135 program is very difficult. Its much easier to buy a plane already on a 135 program and continue with it. Or buy a new plane, like a new Cessna 206 and start hauling freight with it. Creating a 135 op from scratch is VERY difficult. And to actually make money with it, you need to be an IA and work 12 hours a day! Putting an Aerostar in a 135 program and asking POA how to do it? Come on man.....!

 

[forseth11]

One thing about 135 ops. Unless it is a new plane or a pristine older plane with pristine logbooks and no add ons that arent is TOTALLY FAA documented, getting an older plane put on a 135 program is very difficult. Its much easier to buy a plane already on a 135 program and continue with it. Or buy a new plane, like a new Cessna 206 and start hauling freight with it. Creating a 135 op from scratch is VERY difficult. And to actually make money with it, you need to be an IA and work 12 hours a day! Putting an Aerostar in a 135 program and asking POA how to do it? Come on man.....!

I'm not asking how to get an Aerostar on a 135 operation, I am asking how much A&Ps charge per hour, and no one seems to have an answer.

 

[James_Dean]

I'm not asking how to get an Aerostar on a 135 operation, I am asking how much A&Ps charge per hour, and no one seems to have an answer.

I've paid anywhere from $40 to $190 per hour.

 

[Zeldman]

Is the business plan for how you want to build the comany or are you writing one for attracting financing?

 

[Everskyward]

I'm not asking how to get an Aerostar on a 135 operation, I am asking how much A&Ps charge per hour, and no one seems to have an answer.

The best thing for you to do is call a place that does maintenance in Aerostars and ask, since costs are regional. Your profile says that you are in Ft. Worth, so I'm sure there will be choices.

 

[rsleeds]

I'm not asking how to get an Aerostar on a 135 operation, I am asking how much A&Ps charge per hour, and no one seems to have an answer.

No offense, but if you don't already have a good idea of that, you have the cart way too far out in front of the horse.

 

[AWACSEng]

If I understand pt. 135 mx ops correctly (I'm no expert, just from cursory research I've done myself), the mechanic on the certificate is supposed to be an employee, much like the chief pilot, director of operations, etc. If that's the case, you may be looking more for a salary to pay annually vs. an hourly labor rate. Salaries, of course, are regional. I'd think for that class of airplane in your area, perhaps $50k-$60k annual salary may be appropriate, give or take. Again, I may be way off base with this, but that is the general understanding I have of a 135 operation regarding staffing the required positions.

 

[mscard88]

I'm not asking how to get an Aerostar on a 135 operation, I am asking how much A&Ps charge per hour, and no one seems to have an answer.

There's a shop at the Dothan Al that works on Aerostars. I'm sure there are others throughout the country. Google your friend, but I'll start with what I know:

http://www.aerostarworld.com/

I flew an Aerostar for a company. They are a bit cramped.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Yup

I've paid anywhere from $40 to $190 per hour.

...so it depends.

 

[Joshuajayg]

No offense, but if you don't already have a good idea of that, you have the cart way too far out in front of the horse.

Gotta start somewhere. I avoid asking these kinds of questions on forums simply due to the image it creates for the poster. When I started to purchase a house everyone expected me to know trade terms, required documents, what all is included in a sale, etc. It made me look like a fool when I started but you have to ask questions somewhere.

I don't think the mechanic has to be a salaried employee but they do have to adhere to the drug test requirements of the 135 operation and you have to have things like a "director of maintenance." I don't know what that all includes but I don't think the FAA cares how you pay them (hourly or salary.)

The local 135 operation with a Seneca hires a guy who runs his own shop but does work on the Seneca. Probably listed as the DOM on the 135 certificate even though he is self employed. Mechanics in this area are between $85/hr and $135/hr.

 

[AWACSEng]

I don't think the mechanic has to be a salaried employee but they do have to adhere to the drug test requirements of the 135 operation and you have to have things like a "director of maintenance." I don't know what that all includes but I don't think the FAA cares how you pay them (hourly or salary.)

Yep, that's wat I was thinking of, the Director of Maintenance. You're right. No, the FAA doesn't care what you pay them, but a decently qualified DOM will care For an operation of only 1 or 2 airplanes, I imagine the DOM and mechanic will be one in the same. When I briefly looked at 135 ops, I was more interested in single airplane/single pilot ops, along the lines of flight seeing. For that size of operation, a few of the required positions could be filled by the same individual. After an evening of research I figured it would be far more efficient to purchase an existing certificate and go from there instead of establishing a new operation.

 

[Joshuajayg]

Yep, that's wat I was thinking of, the Director of Maintenance. You're right. No, the FAA doesn't care what you pay them, but a decently qualified DOM will care For an operation of only 1 or 2 airplanes, I imagine the DOM and mechanic will be one in the same. When I briefly looked at 135 ops, I was more interested in single airplane/single pilot ops, along the lines of flight seeing. For that size of operation, a few of the required positions could be filled by the same individual. After an evening of research I figured it would be far more efficient to purchase an existing certificate and go from there instead of establishing a new operation.

Purchasing an existing certificate is definitely the more efficient route to go from what I have heard. I also heard multiple titles can be held by the same person. Sure isn't a pile of paperwork I want to have to sift through.

 

[forseth11]

Yep, that's wat I was thinking of, the Director of Maintenance. You're right. No, the FAA doesn't care what you pay them, but a decently qualified DOM will care For an operation of only 1 or 2 airplanes, I imagine the DOM and mechanic will be one in the same. When I briefly looked at 135 ops, I was more interested in single airplane/single pilot ops, along the lines of flight seeing. For that size of operation, a few of the required positions could be filled by the same individual. After an evening of research I figured it would be far more efficient to purchase an existing certificate and go from there instead of establishing a new operation.

Okay. I know the mechanics I used for my Mooney charge anywhere from $60 to $90 and they always quote hours.
I was going to be the certificate holder, but I also planned my budget around having a DOM and a COO for executive operations aside from operating the aircraft and pilots. Also, I am planning on starting with four airplanes with the ability to get 20 airplanes after 10 years if we barely scrape by, and ability to get 40 if we happen to have great success.

I am considering buying an existing certificate, but I will likely go through the difficult route of getting my own with the FAA. I understand that getting my own requires a lot of paper work and difficult work, and it also can take about 1 to 3 years to be approved, which is quite alright with me.

I also understand that accoring to part 119.69, I can not act as the DOO because I have not meet the three years of acting as PIC in a part 135 operation, but I almost have my commercial pilot's license, so in 6 years or less, I can take up this position, but I will have hire someone else do preform the actions of DOO, DOM, and Chief Pilot.
And I am aware that the chief pilot must have ATP with 3 years experience in part 121 or part 135 operations.

So, if the opportunity presents its self, I will buy an existing certificate, but if not, I will take the long and difficult route of getting my own. It seems that the market I am looking at is partially filled mostly because of how difficult it is to get and maintain an operating certificate for part 135, but I think I am up to the challenge.

 

[GlennAB1]

Sounds like you want to contract out mx, which you can to an extent. But you're still going on need a maintenance department with Director of Maintenance, quality department with Chief Inspector, etc. I'd find a 135 operator willing to share their operation with you. yeah, I should have read all the responses... just remember, it takes a lot of money to make a little money with an airline.

 

[forseth11]

Sounds like you want to contract out mx, which you can to an extent. But you're still going on need a maintenance department with Director of Maintenance, quality department with Chief Inspector, etc. I'd find a 135 operator willing to share their operation with you. yeah, I should have read all the responses... just remember, it takes a lot of money to make a little money with an airline.

I will only need a DOO, Chief Pilot, and DOM according to 119.69. You are refering to part 119.65 which requires DOS, DOO, Chief Pilot, DOM, and chief inspector. I will be operating a 135 operations not 121.

 

[AWACSEng]

The other obstacle that I noted was that the operation had to have possession of the aircraft before the application for a certificate could be processed, since it's tied to each serial number, not just type. Assuming capital is not a factor in your prospective operation, that may not be an issue for you.

I know there are many responses to this thread that don't really answer your original question of what a mechanic charges. Your responses have helped clear up some of the questions others have posed. I think the actual answer to your question could best be answered by calling a mechanic in the area where you intend to have your aircraft serviced. That will be the most accurate estimation available.

 

[forseth11]

The other obstacle that I noted was that the operation had to have possession of the aircraft before the application for a certificate could be processed, since it's tied to each serial number, not just type. Assuming capital is not a factor in your prospective operation, that may not be an issue for you.

I know there are many responses to this thread that don't really answer your original question of what a mechanic charges. Your responses have helped clear up some of the questions others have posed. I think the actual answer to your question could best be answered by calling a mechanic in the area where you intend to have your aircraft serviced. That will be the most accurate estimation available.

Yea, I have done that and got a quote for $60 per hour, $85 per hour, $89, and $95, but I wanted to hear what others might have to say.

I was unaware of that about the operating certificate. My examiner, which is two hangars from me, used to work for the FAA for many years, so I plan on asking him some about the process of getting an operating certificate. I will also be going to my local FAA office to ask someone about it there.

If that is the case I have a few options:

1. Get all the investments I need to start-up and buy the planes I need to start then apply for the certificate. The problem with this, is that the longer the approval process takes, the more I will lose money on the loan's interest.
2. Go through the process of getting my Mooney or 150 on the certificate to meet their one aircraft requirement, then go from there.
3. Buy an operating certificate.

Just so you know, I am not going into this just to be another 135 carrier like the others out there, I am a software engineer and so is my friend, and we are working on some special software (won't disclose) which will make our operation easier and better for our customers.

 

[AWACSEng]

Just so you know, I am not going into this just to be another 135 carrier like the others out there, I am a software engineer and so is my friend, and we are working on some special software (won't disclose) which will make our operation easier and better for our customers.

I certainly wish you luck. I looked at it briefly for a flight seeing/air tours operation outside of 25nm from the based airport. It was too much red tape for the level of operation I wanted. Just another random thought regarding purchasing an existing certificate: Maybe find someone desperate to get out of the business? Maybe the'y'd be willing to sell for far less than starting from scratch?

 

[forseth11]

I certainly wish you luck. I looked at it briefly for a flight seeing/air tours operation outside of 25nm from the based airport. It was too much red tape for the level of operation I wanted. Just another random thought regarding purchasing an existing certificate: Maybe find someone desperate to get out of the business? Maybe the'y'd be willing to sell for far less than starting from scratch?

Not a bad idea. Any idea on where to find someone like that?

 

[AWACSEng]

I don't have a specific source, but have seen 135 certs for sale (some with aircraft and facilities included) listed on the various aviation for sale sites.

 

[weilke]

I don't have a specific source, but have seen 135 certs for sale (some with aircraft and facilities included) listed on the various aviation for sale sites.

I have been told that this only works if you remain in the same FSDO district and you keep the key personnel. The moment you try to move to a different FSDO you pretty much start from scratch as every inspector has his own set of requirements.

 

[GlennAB1]

I will only need a DOO, Chief Pilot, and DOM according to 119.69. You are refering to part 119.65 which requires DOS, DOO, Chief Pilot, DOM, and chief inspector. I will be operating a 135 operations not 121.

Alright, I worked for a 135 operator some 35 years ago, the DOM also wore the Chief Inspector hat. You will be required to list in your manuals, the individual/s that perform maintenance/required inspection function. FAR 135.427.

You will need to work out fee schedule with that/those individual/s.

 

[kgruber]

I wrote a complete 135 manual, and was chief pilot. It used to be much easier, but today the chief pilot position is mostly a desk job. There is paperwork to do EVERY day.

 

[weilke]

The other obstacle that I noted was that the operation had to have possession of the aircraft before the application for a certificate could be processed, since it's tied to each serial number, not just type. Assuming capital is not a factor in your prospective operation, that may not be an issue for you.

The regs also allow a lease. One way to skin that cat is to have a lease on an aircraft of the same type that is owned/used by a part 91 corporate operator. When the cert comes through, other aircraft are leased or purchased and added to the certificate.

 

[RyanB]

I hope you're not biting off more than you can chew. A&P hourly rates are not a one size fits all answer. Pricing varies greatly depending on location and type aircraft.

 

[weilke]

I hope you're not biting off more than you can chew. A&P hourly rates are not a one size fits all answer. Pricing varies greatly depending on location and type aircraft.

Also, just a generic number for 'A&P' doesn't do him any good. He needs someone who is acceptable to his FSDO as DOM for the operation.

 

[forseth11]

Alright, I worked for a 135 operator some 35 years ago, the DOM also wore the Chief Inspector hat. You will be required to list in your manuals, the individual/s that perform maintenance/required inspection function. FAR 135.427.

You will need to work out fee schedule with that/those individual/s.

Yea I am aware of 135.427. From my understanding, this means I will most likely have to employee these mechanics or at the very least choose all the mechanics I will contract with (aside from the DOM) and get their names in the manual and approved by the FAA.

I wrote a complete 135 manual, and was chief pilot. It used to be much easier, but today the chief pilot position is mostly a desk job. There is paperwork to do EVERY day.

I would love to say my plan for cutting this paper work by 80%, but it just so happens that these forums are public and someone is bound to take my idea/plan.

I hope you're not biting off more than you can chew. A&P hourly rates are not a one size fits all answer. Pricing varies greatly depending on location and type aircraft.

Yea I am not looking for that. I have calculated my maintenance prices based on the average I have found so far and gone a little above the average to give those a reason to work for me.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I would recommend buying an aircraft that's already on a 135 certificate. Getting an aircraft through conformity is never cheap and can be detrimental to a startup. If you have no choice and buy one that's not 135 you will need deep pockets.

 

[GlennAB1]

Yea I am aware of 135.427. From my understanding, this means I will most likely have to employee these mechanics or at the very least choose all the mechanics I will contract with (aside from the DOM) and get their names in the manual and approved by the FAA.

You'll need an Inspection Unit also. 135.429 (b)

The FAA won't approve your mechanics. Once your manual is approved the FAA will just ensure that you are operating per the requirements of the manual, that the mechanics meet the requirements (experience and training) .

 

[MauleSkinner]

I would recommend buying an aircraft that's already on a 135 certificate. Getting an aircraft through conformity is never cheap and can be detrimental to a startup. If you have no choice and buy one that's not 135 you will need deep pockets.

If you buy one that IS 135 already, you may still need deep pockets. I've seen a pretty good handful of airplanes go through conformity that were current on a 135 certificate when purchased, but cost a lot of money to get legal for 135.

Best bet is to have someone knowledgable audit the aircraft and logs prior to purchase.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I think it might be easier to start a discount airline. Buy some major's castoff Boeing 737 (one would do) and start advertising low fares. Hire some handsome pilots and foxy stewerdesses! Then get investors to buy stock and presto! You are the (wealthy you hope) CEO of Fairbanks Air...discount airline to 4 different cities!!!