Paris attack... some reality.

Yes you did miss a lot. The incendiary raids on Japan, which took place before the atomic bombs killed thousands, many more than the two atomic weapons. This was indiscriminate bombing which set thousands of civilian homes on fire, which in turn killed thousands of civilians, women and children, etc. . Tokyo was one target that accomplished this. Lemay was in charge and ordered that the B 29s carry only incendiary bombs. Then there was Hamburg and Dresden in Germany where the bombing killed , again, many thousands of civilians. We lost around 450 thousand in WW2. Germany lost that many during the last few weeks of the war.


I have no point, just some of reference:

In WWII it was considered "total war" and all civilians were considered not "innocent" because of their help in factories and the war effort as a whole.

I don't know if anything modern is anything near "total war".
 
Yes you did miss a lot. The incendiary raids on Japan, which took place before the atomic bombs killed thousands, many more than the two atomic weapons. This was indiscriminate bombing which set thousands of civilian homes on fire, which in turn killed thousands of civilians, women and children, etc.

To be fair, that was a differnt time and under completely different circumstances. Our firebombing of Japan was 100% justified. Horrible beyond comprehension and brutal, but our actions can be justified.
 
I have no point, just some of reference:

In WWII it was considered "total war" and all civilians were considered not "innocent" because of their help in factories and the war effort as a whole.

I don't know if anything modern is anything near "total war".

To be fair, that was a differnt time and under completely different circumstances. Our firebombing of Japan was 100% justified. Horrible beyond comprehension and brutal, but our actions can be justified.
Perhaps the Muslims are justified in pursuing total war on us. Who gets to decide when total war is OK?;)
 
Have you ever wondered how it is that guys can walk into a room full of strangers and start taking them down like a shooting gallery? How can they not feel for the people they are killing? In this case, the motivating force that gets them to the location and initiate trigger pull is revenge. Pure and simple revenge.

We sit in our comfy living room chairs and our military sends out some sort of aircraft that is in no real danger to unload bombs on whoever down below. Civilians die by the score. Now our enemies don't have this fancy remote control push button technology, so they improvise the best they can. These 7-8 attackers are their low budget remote control push button death machine. They want us to know what it's like to be indiscriminately killed.

It has been said time and time again by experts that study this struggle with terrorism, that nothing fills the recruiting rolls faster for the terrorists than our aerial bombardment campaigns. They are universally despised in the Middle East not only for their indiscriminate killing, but also their cowardice.

So if we want this struggle to go on and on forever and to have an endless stream of suicide attacks in our cities and our public transport, by all means we should bomb the hell out of them from the air.

Aerial bombardment by itself never has and never will defeat an enemy force. It's a huge waste of money and only adds high octane fuel to the fire.

I'm completely at a loss to understand this line of logic. So essentially I believe you are saying- we get attacked, we don't defend ourselves because the bad guy gets more and more angry when we do defend ourselves and, as a result, we get attacked again because the bad guy never faces a consequence for his or her actions....hmmm seems to me like we lose in that scenario each way and every time. I just want to be clear, your scenario has virtually no result that makes the people who were attacked turn the table on their attackers.

Again, the big picture is irrelevant in this scenario. I don't particularly care what the enemy thinks is right- they are the enemy. You beet an enemy by force, not by saying to them, " we agree we have not been nice to you in the past so we are sorry." Please, that's why the terrorists continue to thrive- the world has taken a passive approach to this problem and here we are. Did it ever occur to any of you that want to say we should not attack so that we don't fill the ranks with terrorists that the recent rise in terrorism may be a result of a more relaxed policy toward the middle east and these groups? It's a heck of a lot easier to organize these attacks when they are sitting in relative comfort knowing their is little the world does in response to their attacks than it is to plan an attack while running from place to place trying to avoid capture or death.

I fear I may be spending too much time trying to respond to this thread in vein. It honestly does not matter what I think on this issue because I'm clearly just an outdated mindset that few support in today's day and age.
 
The sad thing is, to stop this we must be as bad as them.

We HAVE been as bad as them. It hasn't worked. We have killed many thousands of people, many of them innocent women, children and elderly "fighting terrorism".

We have destroyed hospitals, shopping centers, schools.

What more do you want us to do?
 
Have you ever wondered how it is that guys can walk into a room full of strangers and start taking them down like a shooting gallery? How can they not feel for the people they are killing? In this case, the motivating force that gets them to the location and initiate trigger pull is revenge. Pure and simple revenge.

We sit in our comfy living room chairs and our military sends out some sort of aircraft that is in no real danger to unload bombs on whoever down below. Civilians die by the score. Now our enemies don't have this fancy remote control push button technology, so they improvise the best they can. These 7-8 attackers are their low budget remote control push button death machine. They want us to know what it's like to be indiscriminately killed.

It has been said time and time again by experts that study this struggle with terrorism, that nothing fills the recruiting rolls faster for the terrorists than our aerial bombardment campaigns. They are universally despised in the Middle East not only for their indiscriminate killing, but also their cowardice.

So if we want this struggle to go on and on forever and to have an endless stream of suicide attacks in our cities and our public transport, by all means we should bomb the hell out of them from the air.

Aerial bombardment by itself never has and never will defeat an enemy force. It's a huge waste of money and only adds high octane fuel to the fire.

I think you've bought into someone's story line where the US loses no matter what.

I also don't think you're on target with regards to motivations. They are motivated by their religion, which states that they must rule the world so that everyone worships Allah the way they do. Anyone who doesn't is fit only to be killed or enslaved. That's the Koran, that's what this sect of Islam believes.

The only difference between them and the KKK is size really. The Klan didn't kill out of revenge, they did it to advance their cause.
 
Yes you did miss a lot. The incendiary raids on Japan, which took place before the atomic bombs killed thousands, many more than the two atomic weapons. This was indiscriminate bombing which set thousands of civilian homes on fire, which in turn killed thousands of civilians, women and children, etc. . Tokyo was one target that accomplished this. Lemay was in charge and ordered that the B 29s carry only incendiary bombs. Then there was Hamburg and Dresden in Germany where the bombing killed , again, many thousands of civilians. We lost around 450 thousand in WW2. Germany lost that many during the last few weeks of the war. " shock and awe" killed thousands of civilians in Iraq as well .

Alright, I will grant you that we engaged in "total war," and that included firebombing cities, including Dresden, of minimal or no strategic value to try to break the spirit of German and Japan in order to coerce surrender. It's a fair point that you raise, and I can see the similarities in strategy. But I don't agree that they are moral equivalents, which is what I think your point is. It's was a very different situation that led up to the those decisions from the circumstances leading up to the decisions of terrorists to launch a sneak attack on civilians enjoying a night out.
 
Yes you did miss a lot. The incendiary raids on Japan, which took place before the atomic bombs killed thousands, many more than the two atomic weapons. This was indiscriminate bombing which set thousands of civilian homes on fire, which in turn killed thousands of civilians, women and children, etc. . Tokyo was one target that accomplished this. Lemay was in charge and ordered that the B 29s carry only incendiary bombs. Then there was Hamburg and Dresden in Germany where the bombing killed , again, many thousands of civilians. We lost around 450 thousand in WW2. Germany lost that many during the last few weeks of the war. " shock and awe" killed thousands of civilians in Iraq as well .

Why do you hate America? And why do you hate the military?
 
If we abhor an enemy for intentionally targeting civilians, I think it's fair to point out that we have intentionally targeted civilians in the past.
 
No hand wringing required - some people just need killing, so let's keep at it with industry and enthusiasm.
 
We HAVE been as bad as them. It hasn't worked. We have killed many thousands of people, many of them innocent women, children and elderly "fighting terrorism".

We have destroyed hospitals, shopping centers, schools.

What more do you want us to do?

Shopping centers and schools? Are these the same ones that Senator Patty Murray of Washington was recorded as saying that Al Quida built, hence the lover the people had for them?

Sorry, but I'm of the George Patton school. "Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb ba#$%@d die for his country." Given that ISIS and others don't care about collateral damage, indeed they revel in it, take them out. By whatever means necessary. I don't care why they hate us, they just do. We exist, we are free and they hate us for it. Fine. Eliminate them.
 
Shopping centers and schools? Are these the same ones that Senator Patty Murray of Washington was recorded as saying that Al Quida built, hence the lover the people had for them?

Sorry, but I'm of the George Patton school. "Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb ba#$%@d die for his country." Given that ISIS and others don't care about collateral damage, indeed they revel in it, take them out. By whatever means necessary. I don't care why they hate us, they just do. We exist, we are free and they hate us for it. Fine. Eliminate them.

This-- exactly this. The only issue is during Patton's time he was fighting against a country. ISIS is a bunch of rag tag outlets stationed throughout many countries. That complicates the issue tremendously. In a way, the root cause is a struggle for power and influence and, we have more power, and more influence. Sorry, the outcome should never be in doubt. Yet, people worry about "feelings." They erode away the United States' power by cluttering these issues with concerns about how other parts of the world will "feel" about what we did.

The ultimate definition of Pacifism if you ask me, is to sit idly by when attacked because of an unfounded and misdirected concern for those who did the attacking.

I'm reminded daily the Pacifism is alive and well amoungst the general populous of this country.
 
This-- exactly this. The only issue is during Patton's time he was fighting against a country. ISIS is a bunch of rag tag outlets stationed throughout many countries. That complicates the issue tremendously. In a way, the root cause is a struggle for power and influence and, we have more power, and more influence. Sorry, the outcome should never be in doubt. Yet, people worry about "feelings." They erode away the United States' power by cluttering these issues with concerns about how other parts of the world will "feel" about what we did.

The ultimate definition of Pacifism if you ask me, is to sit idly by when attacked because of an unfounded and misdirected concern for those who did the attacking.

I'm reminded daily the Pacifism is alive and well amoungst the general populous of this country.

I doubt we will see massed armed forces under a sovereign country flag fighting each other in uniform like we did in WWII, and even Korea, and Nam. This is different. We don't know the innocents from the terrorists. We can't just kill 'em all, and let God sort them out. I don't know what the answer is, but I am guessing intelligence, and special forces are probably more equipped to counter act them than an M1A1 tank, and F-22.
 
Have you ever wondered how it is that guys can walk into a room full of strangers and start taking them down like a shooting gallery? How can they not feel for the people they are killing? In this case, the motivating force that gets them to the location and initiate trigger pull is revenge. Pure and simple revenge.

We sit in our comfy living room chairs and our military sends out some sort of aircraft that is in no real danger to unload bombs on whoever down below. Civilians die by the score. Now our enemies don't have this fancy remote control push button technology, so they improvise the best they can. These 7-8 attackers are their low budget remote control push button death machine. They want us to know what it's like to be indiscriminately killed.

It has been said time and time again by experts that study this struggle with terrorism, that nothing fills the recruiting rolls faster for the terrorists than our aerial bombardment campaigns. They are universally despised in the Middle East not only for their indiscriminate killing, but also their cowardice.

So if we want this struggle to go on and on forever and to have an endless stream of suicide attacks in our cities and our public transport, by all means we should bomb the hell out of them from the air.

Aerial bombardment by itself never has and never will defeat an enemy force. It's a huge waste of money and only adds high octane fuel to the fire.

That's one group, that's who the mainstay of Islamic terrorism is. ISIS though is a splinter faction, an Apocalyptic cult. Their intent is to bring on Armageddon.
 
I doubt we will see massed armed forces under a sovereign country flag fighting each other in uniform like we did in WWII, and even Korea, and Nam. This is different. We don't know the innocents from the terrorists. We can't just kill 'em all, and let God sort them out. I don't know what the answer is, but I am guessing intelligence, and special forces are probably more equipped to counter act them than an M1A1 tank, and F-22.

What makes you think that is our choice to make? That is the intent of ISIS, and there is only one way to stop it, through Qu'ranic mandate; make the offer of Paradise disappear along with the hunger at home. That is how you gain peace there.
 
Last edited:
I'm completely at a loss to understand this line of logic. So essentially I believe you are saying- we get attacked, we don't defend ourselves because the bad guy gets more and more angry when we do defend ourselves and, as a result, we get attacked again because the bad guy never faces a consequence for his or her actions....hmmm seems to me like we lose in that scenario each way and every time. I just want to be clear, your scenario has virtually no result that makes the people who were attacked turn the table on their attackers.

First, we didn't get attacked, the French did. You keep saying "defend" but what you really mean is 10 fold revenge and of course, the genius "pre emptive strike". The idea that for every 10 of our guys they kill, we'll kill 100 of theirs to teach them a lesson and of course the theory that if we blow them up bad enough, they won't be able to attack us at all.

This has been our strategy for dealing with radical terrorist groups since the Reagan era. It hasn't gotten us anywhere really and in fact this policy has only made it worse and worse. Combine this with the brilliant policy of making the enemy of our enemies our friends and we end up with the mess we have. And we still haven't learned and evolved our strategy yet. We still want to do the same ol' same ol' and hope this time it'll somehow work out.

There is a way for France, or us to turn the tables on our attackers. First, inside the borders of France, anything is fair game. Hunt down the attackers and affiliates and do as much harm as possible within the confines of their laws and constitution. Second, use their political goodwill, their money and their influence they have to join with other western powers as well as Russia and build coalitions help the Arab countries that face ISIS build an all Sunni Arab army to attack and finish ISIS in Syria and Iraq and take those lands back.

Again, the big picture is irrelevant in this scenario. I don't particularly care what the enemy thinks is right- they are the enemy. You beet an enemy by force, not by saying to them, " we agree we have not been nice to you in the past so we are sorry." Please, that's why the terrorists continue to thrive- the world has taken a passive approach to this problem and here we are. Did it ever occur to any of you that want to say we should not attack so that we don't fill the ranks with terrorists that the recent rise in terrorism may be a result of a more relaxed policy toward the middle east and these groups? It's a heck of a lot easier to organize these attacks when they are sitting in relative comfort knowing their is little the world does in response to their attacks than it is to plan an attack while running from place to place trying to avoid capture or death.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Up until Obama, we have pretty much done nothing but non stop bombing and attacking and invading and it has bought us nothing but more enemies. The old school, WWII strategy of overwhelming military force when applied to this new 21st century asymmetric battlefield just spreads the problem of international terrorism all over the globe. In short it makes non stop, perpetual war pretty much forever. As we have seen over and over again, WWII style tactics by us and the Russians when dealing with terrorists has lead to their rise all over the planet with no end in sight.

Time to change the strategy. Sadly, Obama is to lame to actually have a strategy and so he plays community organizer and just tries to make all the folks at home happy some how by pulling troops out, but still maintaining random bombing campaigns. The same failed strategy used by Clinton that ultimately brought us 9/11.

By the way, the Paris attacks can be planned, organized and carried out with a lap top in a motel room anywhere in the world. The idea that sending formations of B-52s over Syria to reduce every city there to rubble will stop these plots and plans from happening, is super naive. The better way is with intel. To understand their networks, their supply lines and then destroy them in that motel room face to face with special ops forces and not a guided 2,000 bomb dropped from 35,000 feet. Unfortunately, much of our intelligence gathering ability has been destroyed by Edward Snowden. He really is a traitor of the highest order.

I think you've bought into someone's story line where the US loses no matter what.

No not at all. We can totally win this. My point is, we will continue to lose no matter what as long as we keep stupidly fighting as though we were fighting Nazis, or Communists with mid 20th century strategies. This is a whole other enemy and a whole other battle.

I also don't think you're on target with regards to motivations. They are motivated by their religion, which states that they must rule the world so that everyone worships Allah the way they do. Anyone who doesn't is fit only to be killed or enslaved. That's the Koran, that's what this sect of Islam believes.

I have to partially disagree. The leadership of these terror movements is motivated by their twisted readings of the Koran and they use Islam to sway the the ignorant into doing things they really don't want to do. However, the rank and file recruits that show up at the ISIS, or Al Qaeda, or Boko Haram, or Taliban doorstep, do so because they want revenge. They want to fight against what they see as injustice. Once they join, religion is used to inspire them and give them confidence that they are doing the right thing and that they are on the right side.

It takes powerful ideas to get ordinary people to do horrible things that are against their nature. So revenge drives people to join, but the religion keeps them there and motivates them to do the unspeakable.
 
This was our strategy in Vietnam as well, body count. It was all about body counts.
 
If we abhor an enemy for intentionally targeting civilians, I think it's fair to point out that we have intentionally targeted civilians in the past.

And continue to do so. When we use our fancy bombs from the sky, we know there will be a certain amount of civilian casualties as a result, but the target is worth the "collateral damage" to us. To the people who live there, it is the utmost injustice and cowardly.

In their view, if you want that one guy dead, you should go there, kick in the door and shoot him in the face, not blow up the whole block from your comfy air-conditioned room 10,000 miles away.
 
And continue to do so. When we use our fancy bombs from the sky, we know there will be a certain amount of civilian casualties as a result, but the target is worth the "collateral damage" to us. To the people who live there, it is the utmost injustice and cowardly.

In their view, if you want that one guy dead, you should go there, kick in the door and shoot him in the face, not blow up the whole block from your comfy air-conditioned room 10,000 miles away.

Totally agree!
 
Shopping centers and schools? Are these the same ones that Senator Patty Murray of Washington was recorded as saying that Al Quida built, hence the lover the people had for them?

Sorry, but I'm of the George Patton school. "Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb ba#$%@d die for his country." Given that ISIS and others don't care about collateral damage, indeed they revel in it, take them out. By whatever means necessary. I don't care why they hate us, they just do. We exist, we are free and they hate us for it. Fine. Eliminate them.

George Patton never had to fight an enemy like this. He was brilliant in his time. Today he would suck at this task. There are more of them than there are of us and their ranks are never ending. We can't just "eliminate" them Patton style. We have tried that again and again and failed.
 
Just start sending in the nukes. I heard we did a couple of nuclear bomber patrols in the Pacific recently while the Chinese navy tailed our guy who did the Spratlys patrol. Some of the bridge to bridge comms were pretty funny, typical of two guys on watch talking on the radio talking about the food. :lol: They gave a friendly sign off when they broke off the tail.
 
The ultimate definition of Pacifism if you ask me, is to sit idly by when attacked because of an unfounded and misdirected concern for those who did the attacking.

Agreed. We can not be pacifists in this fight. We just need to fight different. We need to make this asymmetrical war more symmetrical. We must weaken and defeat our enemies by taking away their abilities to finance and execute their plans, but also by slowing the steady supply of willing new recruits and to do this, we need to understand what motivates them and how they operate.

In short, patience greater than their patience will win this war. The way to defeat these terror groups is to little by little erode their capabilities until the local populace finds them to be the irrelevant nut jobs they really are. This means fighting smart, methodical and on their battle ground, in their world face to face, one on one. The aerial bombardment and mass invasions need to stop.
 
That's one group, that's who the mainstay of Islamic terrorism is. ISIS though is a splinter faction, an Apocalyptic cult. Their intent is to bring on Armageddon.

Understood. That's why we should be careful not to do as ISIS wants us to do and set the whole Middle East on fire. They want us to bomb the hell out of the ISIS territory. They want us to assemble another coalition army of westerners to invade. They know this will just keep those fires going and the atrocities that will inevitably happen will help spread radical Islam around the world even faster.
 
This was our strategy in Vietnam as well, body count. It was all about body counts.

Yep. Vietnam was a very different war than we face now, but there are some similarities. Back then we could never stop the flow of willing recruits and we could never prevent them from making war on us. Our mass killings of their people did not break their will to fight and in fact inspired them to fight harder. In addition, our vision of their future was less appealing than the communist vision of the future, so we lost the ideological war as well just as we are losing it now.
 
Yep. Vietnam was a very different war than we face now, but there are some similarities. Back then we could never stop the flow of willing recruits and we could never prevent them from making war on us. Our mass killings of their people did not break their will to fight and in fact inspired them to fight harder. In addition, our vision of their future was less appealing than the communist vision of the future, so we lost the ideological war as well just as we are losing it now.

well, maybe we couldn't... but the reality is that the US didn't actually try to win that war (excuse me, conflict)
 
Their intent is profit, power, etc. All the usual goals of empire. Islam is a tool for filling the ranks (that, and pay checks, loot, and rape). I doubt very much their senior leadership sees Islam as more than that.

While we can't kill our way to a complete solution, we can sure kill our way to a much better position, on the road to solving the problem.

I don't care what their motives are, beyond how it informs our strategy - I don't feel a need to apologize, understand, or relate to the real and perceived injustices they've endured. We ain't omnipotent, and I don't think we need to feel guilty about self-defense, or do a lot of hand-wringing over their "plight".

I do feel sympathy for a rabid dog; but I'm still shooting him. I feel empathy for the innocents caught up in this; but not enough to tolerate the violence that stems from their frustration.
 
McNamara was a tool, and actually apologized late in life. You can't run a war using metrics designed for Ford Motor Company. It was all about body counts, sorties flown, and other numerical inputs, and outputs. What a cluster.
 
well, maybe we couldn't... but the reality is that the US didn't actually try to win that war (excuse me, conflict)

And for good reason. A total win would have meant WWIII, nuclear exchange and likely extinction of the human race. It wasn't worth that. The real reason we lost was our motivation for going there in the first place. We didn't give a crap about the Vietnamese people, we just wanted to check Communist expansion. Again, the majority of Vietnamese people of that time sided with the Communist ideology and not all the bombs in the world was going to change that. In fact, the more bombs we dropped the more they joined the fight on the Communist side.

We should never have gotten involved, but hey, hindsight right? We were then, as now, operating on the assumption that everyone everywhere wants to be like America. We thought that if we just gave them space, they would all embrace our democratic voting, our free markets and freedom of speech. This just isn't the case.
 
I do feel sympathy for a rabid dog; but I'm still shooting him. I feel empathy for the innocents caught up in this; but not enough to tolerate the violence that stems from their frustration.

Since you went with the rabid dog thing...

Rabis is a disease. To stop the spread of the disease, you need to understand how people get infected. Once that is understood, you can create a vaccine, or contraceptive to keep people from becoming rabid.

Just killing the rabid and non rabid alike is not going to stop the spread of the disease, it will further spread it. Like smashing a petri dish with a hammer. You may kill some of the virus, but now it's all over the room.
 
Since you went with the rabid dog thing...



Rabis is a disease. To stop the spread of the disease, you need to understand how people get infected. Once that is understood, you can create a vaccine, or contraceptive to keep people from becoming rabid.



Just killing the rabid and non rabid alike is not going to stop the spread of the disease, it will further spread it. Like smashing a petri dish with a hammer. You may kill some of the virus, but now it's all over the room.


Actually, no. You kill rabies by killing the carrier, and often killing other animals who were in contact with the carrier, and testing their brains. And sometimes you have to kill the entire herd.

There is no vaccine to stop the disease, only to protect others.

So while your facts were wrong, your analogy along with my facts are quite accurate. Except that we have no magical vaccine to protect the innocents from getting bitten. Only vigilance.
 
Yep. Vietnam was a very different war than we face now, but there are some similarities. Back then we could never stop the flow of willing recruits and we could never prevent them from making war on us. Our mass killings of their people did not break their will to fight and in fact inspired them to fight harder. In addition, our vision of their future was less appealing than the communist vision of the future, so we lost the ideological war as well just as we are losing it now.

From our perspective, the Vietnam War is nearly identical, we just add a doomsday cult to the mix. The fear was losing control of the oilfields in Arabia and South East Asia, same as WWII, and now. And we are going to lose control of them. China already has the two big points of overall economic size and leverage as well as on nuclear military capacity to go with equal ability to fulfill MAD. Now with the Russian and Iranian alliances they can complete the hat trick of economic devastation by taking over reserve oil currency in all of Arabia and SE Asia, and giving it to Russia in exchange for stable oil prices and farm land that Russia basically has unused that they lease to China to farm. Iran finally kicks the Infidels out of the Middle East and they have all vanquished their long time enemy, the imperial families of Europe who have been oppressing them for many hundreds of years. Americans refuse to believe that we are once again taxed by our feudal lords of history, but that is really what the income tax is. It pays the debt for our fiat currency, and that currency is issued by a private banking consortium, the banks having been started, and the controlling interests still maintained by the same families as during the revolution, and they are still all managed through Rosthschild group, headquartered in London. You can call me an antisemite now, but the truth is the truth regardless, it's public record for anyone who cares to read.

We are the last bastion, and strongest legion of the Roman Empire, Europe is falling to Islam, and China will take us unless we take major action. One is to play into ISIS's plan and "live free or die" although our freedom is no more than serfdom on a penal colony far from where those that matter live their lives. The other is a socio-economic revolution of our own. Now, we have that going on right now already, things are not really doing well for our society, we are hateful jealous people, driven to covet by every sector of our society, enslaved to debt (including collective debt of the nation to which we pledge our faith) or poverty.

Or we can say "**** this", toss out the money lenders, use real resources to trade with, create a real resource backed currency to trade with, create a fuel source that delivers pure water and electricity with enough heat left over to provide refrigeration. We give everybody job and a safe place to be productive working the greenhouses, and let the economy be driven by what we produce rather than what we can consume.
 
Agreed. We can not be pacifists in this fight. We just need to fight different. We need to make this asymmetrical war more symmetrical. We must weaken and defeat our enemies by taking away their abilities to finance and execute their plans, but also by slowing the steady supply of willing new recruits and to do this, we need to understand what motivates them and how they operate.

In short, patience greater than their patience will win this war. The way to defeat these terror groups is to little by little erode their capabilities until the local populace finds them to be the irrelevant nut jobs they really are. This means fighting smart, methodical and on their battle ground, in their world face to face, one on one. The aerial bombardment and mass invasions need to stop.

Dave, first off that thanks for taking the time to write a really thoughtful response to my posts. I really do appreciate it. Just to clarify,when I say "we" I mean the civilized world. Thank God we, the United States, were not attacked. Furthermore, I completely agree with your ideas for beating terrorists by cutting off their abilities to continue. Look at the work "anonymous"has done even in the recent days. They've hacked computers, shut down bank accounts, closed recruitment web sites and much more. That's essentially a brilliant way to close off the terrorist future.

The French President put it incredibly well. He said that his country is not fighting a war against a civilization, because terrorists don't represent any civilization. In so many words, that's my point all along. The absurd policy that we as a western world, should, in some way, be concerned that our actions may be perceived one way and lead to further attacks down the road is essentially to allow the status qou to go on forever. It's simply can't be justified to allow the feelings of others to influence a decision that should be made strictly on the premise of showing force.

In history, countries have always fought against countries and assets of one country were easy to find and take over. War was simpler and easier to win. One country took over another, simple as that. Enemies were enemies and neither side gave a darn about the other sides ideas. Why that has appeared to have changed, I'll never be able to understand. Taking this view one step further, if a war on terror now requires a new approach or a combined approach of new age war, be it cyber attacks combined with old fashioned boots on the ground, I'm fine with whatever. I'm just so sick of people blaming the United States for causing these terrorist groups to start and then further implying that the Western world should have sympathy for those who attack us.
 
Last edited:
And for good reason. A total win would have meant WWIII, nuclear exchange and likely extinction of the human race. It wasn't worth that. The real reason we lost was our motivation for going there in the first place. We didn't give a crap about the Vietnamese people, we just wanted to check Communist expansion. Again, the majority of Vietnamese people of that time sided with the Communist ideology and not all the bombs in the world was going to change that. In fact, the more bombs we dropped the more they joined the fight on the Communist side.

We should never have gotten involved, but hey, hindsight right? We were then, as now, operating on the assumption that everyone everywhere wants to be like America. We thought that if we just gave them space, they would all embrace our democratic voting, our free markets and freedom of speech. This just isn't the case.

We have all the same conditions right now that precluded WWII, the production control of the Mid East and SE Asian oil fields is jeopardy, only now we aren't the global industrial might, China is. Not only that, China has bought control of our markets using our own debt to buy US mineral, manufacturing, technology, and agricultural capacity. Oh yeah, there's also the factor that unlike Japan in 1941, China can put more men under arms than we have total population, and they have ballistic missile subs that can put 200 nuclear warheads a piece onto the US and Europe from the middle of the ocean.

You said elsewhere "we cannot afford to pacifists in this." That is the opposite of true. We have been outplayed on violence and capability, not only from without but within, look at us, we are a gladiator society. No, this is the finals here, we have come to the end of our rope, our Ponzi scheme is collapsing and the aristocracy that poisoned Chinese society with Opium, and then taxed them for it, going to war with them to maintain the drug trade profits (sound familiar?) is collapsing with it finally. It took Communist's and Islamists to team up to do it, but it's finally over.

The only card we can possibly play and come out of this with a free and independent prosperous society is play not only the pacifist card, but the generous pacifist card. We have to actually become the Christian nation that we lay claim to and do like Christ did an FEED PEOPLE!!! Holy **** how is this so hard to figure out? IT'S SPELLED OUT IN THE BIBLE AND QU'RAN!!!
 
Since you went with the rabid dog thing...

Rabis is a disease. To stop the spread of the disease, you need to understand how people get infected. Once that is understood, you can create a vaccine, or contraceptive to keep people from becoming rabid.

Just killing the rabid and non rabid alike is not going to stop the spread of the disease, it will further spread it. Like smashing a petri dish with a hammer. You may kill some of the virus, but now it's all over the room.

I'm not that amitious, and eradication may not be possible, or necessary. I'm fine with containnment. Perfection not required, just weaken the enemy enough so as to remove the immediate threat.
 
I'm not that amitious, and eradication may not be possible, or necessary. I'm fine with containnment. Perfection not required, just weaken the enemy enough so as to remove the immediate threat.

They aren't fine with containment, they want the Apocalypse. We do not have the ability to weaken them, they are already the walking dead, and they don't have to do anything for us to self destruct, they are just going to help us get there a bit quicker by getting someone to launch nukes. France has nukes, why do you think France gets the attention, as well as Great Britain while less publicized has probably more attacks than France, and Belgium may be the worst for internal tension and has been for over a decade.
 
Absolute zero interest if "they" are fine with it. Or not. I said I was. Just like mosquitos; complete eradication may be unrealistic or too expensive, but reasonsble control is possible.
 
Absolute zero interest if "they" are fine with it. Or not. I said I was. Just like mosquitos; complete eradication may be unrealistic or too expensive, but reasonsble control is possible.

Control is an illusion of the ego, it does not exist outside of the mind.
 
Back
Top