Panic at stall horn

bobmrg said:
Maybe this is "flooding," but it is what I would do. Get some altitude.... 4- 5000 feet... and tell her that you are going to put the airplane into a stall and the stall warner will sound continuously...she can put her fingers in her ears, whatever. Have her rest her feet lightly on the rudder pedals. Then slowly pull the stick back as far as it will go...wrap your arms around it and hold it full back. The airplane will stall (duh), then the nose will fall through, then it will enter another stall, rinse and repeat. Keep the wings level with rudder, so that she can learn that the wings can be leveled with rudder pressure. When you get comfortably low, release the back pressure and let the nose fall through into a gentle dive...when the wing starts flying she will feel it in the seat of her pants...tell her to wait for that sensation to tell her that the wing is no longer stalled.

Go back up and do it again, only this time let her wrap her arms around the yoke and hold it back while doing the rudder dance. No fingers in the ears this time. If she comes through this and still panics when she hears the stall warner she may be a hopeless case.

Good luck. I join with others in saying that you cannot let this person be certificated until she understands that she is in complete control of the airplane and it can't do anything bad unless she lets it.


Bob Gardner
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Actually, the thing that taught me feet were good was to fly the aircraft straight and level (trimmed) hands off, with a few light turns. As soon as you figure out the rudder rolls the aircraft, light bulbs go off. THEN (much later), my final stage check instructor had me practice uncoordinated (and anticoordinated) stalls to deal with the incipient spin. I think that might have been a bit terrifying without the earlier rudder-only training.

But I'm skeptical that this addresses the underlying issues at hand. One must have positive control of oneself to hope to have positive control of an aircraft.
 
First thing that comes to mind is how do your react to the stall, students tend to amplify what ever you are feeling, are you calm and non-event during the maneuver.

Second would be to pull the breaker for the dumb bell (stall horn) and try it.
I spent a good amount of my time flying planes that didnt have those dumb things and even with thousands of hours going back into a plane with a horn and having it go off on landing does grab my attention lol

Take her out for spin training, wind the plane up nice and tight and recover it, have your student try this, keep a hands off approach and just read off your altitude if she tenses up, if she cant do SOMETHING (even if it is the wrong thing) in that scenario, I would advise her to take up golf.
 
Part of me wants to say, "OMG OMG OMG...is she blonde?"

But the rational part asks, "Have you done a power off demo with a very smooth, 50 foot recovery, before trying a power on stall?"
 
what about those folks who have never been afraid of a stall and just see it as another maneuver the airplane does? It does this at this speed - and it does that at that speed. Like the best cornering airspeed caret on a HUD. Take it and PULLLLLL!.

Does that mean the utter lack of fear at this maneuver makes us no longer normal? Guess its all in liking or not liking roller coasters . . . why are all these people screaming around me?
 
bbchien said:
But the rational part asks, "Have you done a power off demo with a very smooth, 50 foot recovery, before trying a power on stall?"
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The way to introduce folks to stalls needs to be the way they are going to see them in the wild -

flaps and gear down, throttle at idle - and hold that altitude. Don;t change the sight picture- hey watch that airspeed bleed off - oh, whats that sound? Feel the burble coming down the wings? Annnnnnddddd - there. nose comes down - full power don't touch anything and whammo you are a flying again.

Thats how you do stalls for people who are not familiar or scared - its NOTHING to write home about. The power on stall is a cacophony of noise and sensation. Do those last. Most folks are not going to departure stall an small GA airplane [I know - I know - St George Utah but that was the showboat exception]
 
I have tried most things that have been suggested, even when I have the controls and do a stall she starts panicking as we enter, then on recovery she calms down.

As far as why she is flying, she is 19 and says she always wanted to be a pilot, so it's all her. But now as I am typing I recall her mother was not a big fan of her doing this, so maybe some fear transferred from mom, maybe?

I have explained the stalls, she understands the physics. I also explained, if she doesn't stall, she can't solo, she can't get her PPL, ending she will never reach her goal of airline pilot.

Aunt Peggy I will keep you in mind about maybe getting her in touch with you. But my next lesson will be to do what you suggested.

She is very motivated, she does grasp many things. I can tell her take off, get me to the practice area at 2000 ft, she can do that on her own. I have her do. Steep turns, she has no fear about them. So she is capable of flying, but if she can't control her fear and panics when things happen, I know she can't be a pilot. Just don't want to cut her loose yet.
 
TommyG said:
As far as why she is flying, she is 19 and says she always wanted to be a pilot, so it's all her.
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OK. The reason I asked is that I have seen people being pushed into flying by well-meaning spouses, parents or friends, and that often does not work out well. However, that's obviously not the case here.

TommyG said:
I have explained the stalls, she understands the physics. I also explained, if she doesn't stall, she can't solo, she can't get her PPL, ending she will never reach her goal of airline pilot.
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What is her reaction when you explain these things to her? Is this the only thing which causes panic or are there other things too? What does she think might help her? If she understands intellectually what is going on I think the people who suggested desensitization and "flooding" are on the right track.
 
Put her in the plane on your nickle... Take her out and do a solid 20 to 30 minutes of you doing stall-recover-stall-recover until you lose a couple of thousand feet, then climb right back up and repeat...
At some point she will either become bored and begin following you through on the controls or she will start screaming and barfing and you can take her back to the airport and wave good by... Either way, you will have a solution...
 
What MIGHT help is to demonstrate falling leaf stalls to her. If she ever gets over her fear, I bet she will love doing those by herself. But in the end, you might not be the one to help her over this fear. Are there any female CFIs in your area? If so, I would put her in touch with one of them.
 
Tommy G, if she can sense your attitude, then you are done. Self assess carefully. I do agree with azure, gender issues aside, it is time for your to step aside. But find her a lady CFI, so that her next chance is most likely without that-maybe-issue.
 
On the stall horn, at least on a Cessna 152 it is required equipment. Without it, the plane isn't legal.

For the OMG moment, you can try just holding her in this moment stalling for minutes on end, giving the rational mind the time it needs to intrude on the emotional. Slooooow flight with the blaring horn while demonstrating being cool and collected and in control. She takes stock of the situation but this isn't instruction on a maneuver; it is getting to know herself better. An age 19 female still has a long way to go for emotional maturity. Depending on how fast she is, it can cost less than the therapist :) odds are, this reaction manifests itself in other areas too, so reviewing when she felt it last outside of a plane and recalling how she dealt with it (if she has successfully) could help too.
 
Pull breaker, fly around in slow flight.
Then push it in while still in slow flight to show her that it would of been on the whole time and everything was fine.

(Might of already been suggested)
 
What you are seeing is a classic example of the hazardous attitude Resignation. That is why I stressed that she must take ownership of the problem. You can guide her in realizing what she is thinking, but in the long run, it is up to her to take the reins in her hands and handle it. Actually, that brings up the "horse" analogy. I don't know why, but women respond better to a horse analogy than men. If she can visualize herself calming and controlling a horse, that may help.

Since this is a resignation attitude, you must control yourself to a great degree to make sure that you are not "controlling". My suggestion is to make it totally obvious that you WILL NOT save the day. It is her responsibility to recover and CONTROL the situation. Lean back, cross your arms, and DO NOTHING until she figures it out or until you decide that the situation is hopeless. In other words, there is only one God in the plane and she is sitting in the left seat.
 
My concern would be that when she sees your arms folded, the OMG's might get louder before they get softer. But I've never been a 19-year-old woman...
 
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AuntPeggy said:
I don't know why, but women respond better to a horse analogy than men. If she can visualize herself calming and controlling a horse, that may help.
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I think more women respond to the horse analogy because far more young girls participate in equestrian sports than young boys. I know I did. It's was very easy to draw a parallel. You need to be the master of the horse and make it do what you want, just like you do an airplane.
 
As others have said, more slow flight, maneuvering gently and climbing and descending with the warning horn squealing, should do the trick- sounds like she's scared of stalls in general, so doing a bunch of stall recoveries might just make that worse. Aerobatics might also be too much for her right now, but I could be wrong.

She just needs to accept that the horn is only a warning that you are close to the edge in terms of A of A for a given airspeed, not the "oh crap we're gonna die" alarm. Heck, it's not even really a warning so much as a reminder of what any pilot should know academically, and feel and hear viscerally... that the air flow over the wings is just starting to break up.
I know it's not so simple as just knowing these things, but that knowledge has to come to the fore to overcome this irrational fear of the horn. And I think there's not much more you can do to encourage that than having her fly the airplane at MCA and see for herself that not only will it not fully stall as soon as the horn sounds, it can actually climb, descend and turn while remaining fully in control, if a little shaky and sluggish. Extra care must be taken to stay coordinated and not get too slow, but this is something any new student can handle.
I never had a big problem with stalls and MCA when I started out, but the more MCA maneuvering I did, the more confident I became... more so than by just doing stalls and recoveries.
I did start out being a bit intimidated at that moment when I'd land with the plane stalled, and hearing the horn at altitude tended to remind me of that, making me a little nervous, even though I knew there was plenty of altitude to recover if I did stall. But after plenty of MCA flying, the landings started to just seem like MCA maneuvering (which in effect, they are). I also was lucky that all of my instructors were big on using cues other than the airspeed indicator, the warning horn, or even the real and artificial horizons to determine how close I was to stalling... even an airplane without a horn will "talk" to you if you are listening. Even with the best headset in the world you can hear this stuff, and you can feel it, too.

But if flying around safely at MCA for most of a flight lesson or two is not enough to snap her out of it, I guess she shouldn't solo.

She sounds bright and determined, and you didn't mention any other confidence problems, so maybe another thing you can do is encourage her to be her own instructor at those moments- to step outside the situation and ask herself "what is wrong here, if the student understands the physics, yet is intimidated?" She also needs to do some soul-searching. If you were to ask her, while the horn is sounding, why she's worried and she says "I don't know", tell her "there has to be some reason, and you have to find out what it is."
 
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BillTIZ said:
No breaker on a Cessna. I would think that deliberate disabling of a warning device would not be kosher.

Just fly around at MCA with the horn on, adapt to the idea that nothing bad is going to happen.

We had our own little "Cybil" learning to fly. She'll either get over it, or she'll stop flying. Ours got through it and completed her rating.
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Agreed. That NWA MD-80 that crashed on takeoff from DTW would probably not have crashed had the T/O config warning not been disabled.
 
Not a CFI,don't play one on TV,and didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
But, my 2 cents:
If the main objective is to teach stall recognition and avoidance, then maybe back off it for a bit. She really only needs to be adept at these skills prior to solo,right?
Let her build confidence in her control of the aircraft,ie; pattern target airspeeds, pitch vs power ,etc. even steep turns. I think I avoided stalls every chance I got until about 200 hours, now I look forward to them. I always thought that doing stall training made pilots too "used" to them.( I understand the point is to teach recognition and immediate recovery) After all, I think in her pp flying you want her to maintain airspeeds above the stall and recognize mushy flight as second nature. Move on to turns around a point and flares for a bit, then come back to stalls. (confidence building) Maybe by then she'll understand that she has to avoid stalls when they are most hazardous( near the hard ground)
 
jpflys said:
If the main objective is to teach stall recognition and avoidance, then maybe back off it for a bit. She really only needs to be adept at these skills prior to solo,right?
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I think he stated that was actually his dilemma, that she's almost through with the requirements to solo, but this one is a final stumbling block.
 
As to the subject of dis-abling the stall warning horn for training, that is a legitimate practice. Saying that would make the airplane illegal, or unsafe, is like saying covering up a required flight instrument is illegal, or unsafe.

Now, back to the story...

Dude. what she wants is YOU. When she screams OMG OMG OMG!, she wants you to grab her and save her like her Prince in Shining Armor.

Yeah, I keed, just to poke at Aunt Peggy, but...there may be an element of truth in there.
 
I am not a CFI, I am just a student, but if I was a CFI, and one of my students died, the first thing that would run through my mind is "Did I not teach them enough? Is it my fault?"

In this case, knowing that if this person were to get in a situation she has never been in (let's say a spin), and there is a high degree if probability she is going to freak out, I would feel responsable for her death for the rest of my life.

I would not feel comfortable knowing I was part of the reason she was in that position in the first place.
 
Thank you aunt Peggy!! Before out flight, I talked to her about what her mental block was when it came to. Stalls, she acknowledged there was some sort of block, she just didn't know what it is. I told I will do a stall first, and I wanted her to start telling me what was going on in her head. I did the stall, she didn't say much, then I had her do the stall, she verbalized everything she was doing. He. Stalled the plane, her recovery was weak, and she noticed that,, but she felt good about stalling the plane. I asked what, thoughts she had going on, she said she was focused on the steps, and that verbalizing what she was doing helped her. She walked away from the lesson very happy, and still motivated.
 
TommyG said:
Thank you aunt Peggy!! Before out flight, I talked to her about what her mental block was when it came to. Stalls, she acknowledged there was some sort of block, she just didn't know what it is. I told I will do a stall first, and I wanted her to start telling me what was going on in her head. I did the stall, she didn't say much, then I had her do the stall, she verbalized everything she was doing. He. Stalled the plane, her recovery was weak, and she noticed that,, but she felt good about stalling the plane. I asked what, thoughts she had going on, she said she was focused on the steps, and that verbalizing what she was doing helped her. She walked away from the lesson very happy, and still motivated.
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Good for you! Good for both of you!!!:goofy:
 
TommyG said:
Thank you aunt Peggy!! Before out flight, I talked to her about what her mental block was when it came to. Stalls, she acknowledged there was some sort of block, she just didn't know what it is. I told I will do a stall first, and I wanted her to start telling me what was going on in her head. I did the stall, she didn't say much, then I had her do the stall, she verbalized everything she was doing. He. Stalled the plane, her recovery was weak, and she noticed that,, but she felt good about stalling the plane. I asked what, thoughts she had going on, she said she was focused on the steps, and that verbalizing what she was doing helped her. She walked away from the lesson very happy, and still motivated.
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Terrific. Keep it up!
 
When I was a student I was terrified of stalls at first. I was terrified of slow flight. I was such a nervous student that several instructors dropped me and told me not to come back. Eventually I found a CFI who worked with me. He helped me realize that fear was based on lack of knowledge, and that knowledge would displace the fear. There were 2 of us in the plane but only one was afraid. Why was the other not afraid even tough both were in the same situation? It was because of my perceptions of things. That's where the "knowledge" comes in, to correct these perceptions. I had to learn to think of stalls, not as a bad thing, but as a type of maneuver, a type of flight regime. Perhaps you can explain (use charts or books etc) the aerodynamics of slow flight and of stalls. For example, it helped me to learn that the buffetting was actually because air was no longer flowing smoothly over the wings; therefore this disturbed air flow didn't flow smoothly over the elevator. The buffetting is actually this flow of disturbed air hitting the elevator irractically rather than flowing smoothly over it. Also it helped me to learn that although the airlerons have decreased authority, the rudder and elevator are still effective. Have the student see airshows or at least youtube videos of aerobatic stunts and of maneuvers such as the falling leaf (which I don't think can be done in a 172), and hammerhead stalls.
During slow flight the student can not see that the plane is still moving forward; there is the illusion that the plane is hovering in air or perhaps balancing itself on top of a flagpole, ready to tip over (an indication that this is the student's perception is that he/she would also be afraid of steep banks). The student needs to remind him/herself that the plane is still moving forward. Perhaps doing slow flight very low over a loooong runway may help. Demonstrating lazy eights might help with getting used to steep banks.
Also during slow flight, the nose is high and therefore there is less visibility over the panel. This reduced visibility translated into less controlability in my case. Maybe you can have the student do some slow flight but not very slow, maybe in the 65-75 kt range. Then gradually work into 55-65 kts, and so on. Maybe just for 10 minutes, then go on to other things. Then do another 10 minutes of slow flight.
Another fear I had regarding stalls was, what if I couldn't recover? Or what if I spin? If the student is willing, maybe he/she can take a ride in an aerobatic plane with an aerobatic instructor (if you yourself are not so rated) and that instructor can demonstrate the falling leaf maneuver, dutch rolls, a spin, and so on. I did that. While doing a falling leaf I inadvertantly spun the plane! It recovered when I let go of everything. So that was like my baptism with fire, so to speak. During this lesson, in an aerobatic plane (and wearing a parachute) I found out first hand how much authority the rudder and elevator have even when the wings are stalled. I learned to use "top rudder" if I stall and one wing starts to drop. Top rudder means, whichever rudder is closer to the sky, that's the one you step on.
By the time I was doing my solo XCs my CFI had me doing stalls while looking only at a wingtip, stalls while looking at the ground, stalls under the hood, stalls at night, all with full confidence.
In summary I guess my main point is that knowledge of a subject will displace fear.
 
TommyG said:
Thank you aunt Peggy!! Before out flight, I talked to her about what her mental block was when it came to. Stalls, she acknowledged there was some sort of block, she just didn't know what it is. I told I will do a stall first, and I wanted her to start telling me what was going on in her head. I did the stall, she didn't say much, then I had her do the stall, she verbalized everything she was doing. He. Stalled the plane, her recovery was weak, and she noticed that,, but she felt good about stalling the plane. I asked what, thoughts she had going on, she said she was focused on the steps, and that verbalizing what she was doing helped her. She walked away from the lesson very happy, and still motivated.
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Something I take away from this - she is probably process oriented. Check that, because if you are goal oriented, then you might have naturally skipped right to the end goal of recovery without taking her through the steps of how to get there. If so, it might not have been stalls so much as a lack of knowledge about the steps she needs to do to get to the end goal (her recovery was weak)...and then it's no wonder she was behind the recovery process.

Does she talking about doing or accomplishing? What do you talk about?

I ask these questions because I had a similiar experience with my instructor on a different topic where she was unable to articulate the discrete steps of a process and therefore I was unable to do it effectively. I eventually learned through trial and error how to get to the end goal of where she wanted me, but it took longer.
 
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DogDaddy, if by a "falling leaf" you mean a sustained stall with roll and yaw controlled by rudder alone, you can do that just fine in a 172. It doesn't move around very fast, so it won't look like much from the ground. But you can dip a wing and recover from it.
 
Yes MAKG1. I didn't know if they could be done in a 172 or not...but now that I think of it, there's no negative load on the wings. At least not any more than pulling out of a dive.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Since this is a resignation attitude, you must control yourself to a great degree to make sure that you are not "controlling". My suggestion is to make it totally obvious that you WILL NOT save the day. It is her responsibility to recover and CONTROL the situation. Lean back, cross your arms, and DO NOTHING until she figures it out or until you decide that the situation is hopeless. In other words, there is only one God in the plane and she is sitting in the left seat.
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That would not have worked with me. I was afraid of making mistakes such as using the wrong rudder. I needed to know for sure that my instructor would be there to save us; otherwise I would not take the risk of trying something I wasn't sure about. I was afraid of just making things worse. I do not learn with the "sink or swim" method.
With this student, maybe you both can discuss beforehand exactly what you will do or not do. Find the balance between being flying the plane for her, and leaving her on her own to figure it out. Maybe set up a code word. Like, you will not touch the controls unless she says, "Your plane." However, if she feels she's in trouble, instead of being quick to use that as her way out, she could first say, "Help me out." which means you will immediately walk her thru what to do yet you will not grab the controls "yet". So let's say she's doing a stall. She feels nervous and becomes unsure. If she says "Help me out" you can remind her "more right rudder...keep pulling back..." and throw in some encouragement "that's right...good..." then as it breaks if you see a wing drop go ahead and tell her which rudder, and be ready to step on that rudder if she's too slow at it. If she says "your plane" or whatever you set up as the "code word" then quickly do so, so that she will know you will not abandon her.
This might be good to do while flying on the buffet for awhile, witht he horn sounding constantly. My CFI had me fly on the buffet and I was sweating and almost shaking, but I had complete confidence that he would jump in and save me if for some reason we flipped over backwards or whatever. All I had to do was ask. Eventually I got used to flying on the buffet. But it took time. Like the student you're discussing, I had several different issues. One was trusting the instructor. Another was a lack of confidence in myself. Another was some false or incorrect perceptions. It took time to work through these.
 
Here's another thought. When I was a student, I also had a mentor. He was a local pilot who was not a CFI, although later he did become a CFI. He was someone I could call or email or text, sometimes just to vent. He was always a listening ear and a source of advice. I still remember, when I soloed in 2008, my mentor took time off from work to be there to see me solo. That made such an impact on me; it impressed upon me that he believed in me. Now I mentor students. Sometimes we just talk. Other times we go over some of the material in the books. Sometimes I invite one to ride along if I'm flying somewhere so they can observe; I enjoy explaining things as I'm doing them. Sometimes I'll take one with me as I just do 3 in the pattern, and I explain what I'm doing such as correcting for a crosswind. Or I share tips on how to stay on the centerline, or radio phraseology.
So maybe at your flight school there's a female pilot or advanced student who could mentor this student. Maybe there is help available through the Ninety Nines? I don't know. But I think having a female friend who has gone through flight training might be a great source of help to her.
 
Not a CFI - but if I were, in your situation, I'd take her through worse case scenarios, so she can see that its not that big of a deal in practice situations.

Take her through a spin, let her recover from it. Take her through an "unintentional" stall, where you are talking to her and pitch up too far, then recover. Take her through falling leaf stalls, take her through everything.

I bet her fear is of the unknown - if its known to her, its not an unknown anymore.
 
DogDaddy, a really, really easy way to practice the rudder is to use it in normal flight. The stall really isn't relevant to that particular bit.

Take your hands off the yoke and keep the aircraft level with your feet. No stalls, just straight and level flight. Make sure your elevator is trimmed!

If you get it backwards, you turn, and you can grab the yoke if it's excessive.

It's a useful skill if you think you might have miscopied a weather frequency and you need to look it up in the A/FD (BTDT).

And during a stall, you do the exact same thing to keep the aircraft level.
 
MAKG1 said:
Take your hands off the yoke and keep the aircraft level with your feet. No stalls, just straight and level flight. Make sure your elevator is trimmed!
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This! Double this! This is supposed to be introduced and practiced in the first few hours of "effects of controls" in learning basic control function.

Rudder is God. Rudder keeps the airplane level, or returns it to level. The rudder holds the heading or turns the airplane, and the ailerons bank it enough to prevent skidding.

If introduced in the first few lessons, Primacy will teach proper rudder use.
If rudder is not introduced as the primary heading (straight & level control), the yoke, or aileron, will become the primary heading control, and that is a set up for a stall/spin accident.
 
If you can, find an older plane that does not have a stall horn like a Champ, Chief or Tailorcraft. Personaly I would duct tape the horn.
 
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