Panel upgrade

[Marc J Woods]

Hello Everyone,
I'm about to upgrade my panel. I presently have a Garmin 430 and a KT76A transponder. My plan is to have the 430 upgraded to the 430WAAS and the transponder replaced with the Garmin 345 for compliance, and IN/OUT. Beyond these upgrades, I want to add the GFC500 autopilot with a G5 AI, as necessary. I want to keep my vaccum system as a back up in case of a power issue, (and to not go into more debt with removal). I'll simply move the old attitude indicator to my #2 CDI location and use the old #1 CDI in its place for my #2. I'm contemplating adding another G5 for an HSI while I'm at it. My Piper Archer II has a standard six pack lay out. My questions are: Is it still a good idea to have both vacuum and electric for redundancy? Does anyone know the cost of removing vacuum system? Any comments regarding the GFC500 autopilot? I see some pilots removing the TC and using AI in its stead. Isn't there a real need to know standard rate turns, such as in holding, etc in IFR?

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Look at Avidyne IFD440 (slide-in WAAS upgrade I think), and they may take the 430 in exchange. The AXP340 transponder is also a slide in replacement for yours, though it doesn’t have “in”. Someone else will be by shortly to give you better info than me, while you surf the web for more info in these two pieces of equipment.

 

[Ravioli]

Do you fly IFR? if so your 430 upgrade to WAAS and 435 non-WAAS makes sense.

For VFR you might save money by going 435 with WAAS (+800) and not worry about the rest.

Hard call.

 

[chemgeek]

Definitely price the IFD440 exchange instead of the GNS430 upgrade. The Garmin GTX345 is a good unit but you might be able to install an NGT-9000 for the same or less with more features, like wifi communication with your EFB and it's own screen. If you replace all your vac instruments just pull the vac system. The G5s have lots of backup electric power, I'm doing the G5s next and saying good riddance to carbon vane vac pumps.

 

[Marc J Woods]

Ravioli, I do fly IFR. That’s why I’m a bit concerned about replacing TC wit AI ( times turns, Emerg, Etc.) I appreciate your input!
Chem geek, do you know approximately how much vacuum removal is? I’ll look into NGT 9000.
455BU I will definitely check into IFD440.
Thanks guys!

 

[chemgeek]

Ravioli, I do fly IFR. That’s why I’m a bit concerned about replacing TC wit AI ( times turns, Emerg, Etc.) I appreciate your input!
Chem geek, do you know approximately how much vacuum removal is? I’ll look into NGT 9000.
455BU I will definitely check into IFD440.
Thanks guys!

I don't know how much vac removal will cost. Will find out in about 6 months or so.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Removal is about an hour:
Decowl and remove glare shield.
Remove pump, then a plate is put in its place.
Pull tubing, filters, and vacuum sensors (gauge or switch for annunciator).
Plug hole in firewall.
W&B updated.
If you have backup, that gets removed as well.
I lost almost 20lbs between the two.


Tom

 

[Katamarino]

Buy my IFD440! It's only 3 months old and I'm hoping to upgrade to a 540.

 

[Marc J Woods]

Removal is about an hour:
Decowl and remove glare shield.
Remove pump, then a plate is put in its place.
Pull tubing, filters, and vacuum sensors (gauge or switch for annunciator).
Plug hole in firewall.
W&B updated.
If you have backup, that gets removed as well.
I lost almost 20lbs between the two.


Tom

Thanks for the information Tom

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Is it still a good idea to have both vacuum and electric for redundancy?

Meh... If the dual G5s and their battery backups aren't working for you, you're probably already on fire and the vacuum AI isn't going to save you. Vacuum systems are a constant source of failures as well. Your backup vacuum AI is *way* more likely to fail than either of your G5s. IMO, it's not worth the continued maintenance dollars and headaches to keep it. Plus, you'll gain some useful load by getting rid of it, and/or some performance thanks to your now-lighter plane.

Any comments regarding the GFC500 autopilot?

It's pretty freaking amazing.

I see some pilots removing the TC and using AI in its stead. Isn't there a real need to know standard rate turns, such as in holding, etc in IFR?

The G5s will show you standard rate turns:

 

[Marc J Woods]

Meh... If the dual G5s and their battery backups aren't working for you, you're probably already on fire and the vacuum AI isn't going to save you. Vacuum systems are a constant source of failures as well. Your backup vacuum AI is *way* more likely to fail than either of your G5s. IMO, it's not worth the continued maintenance dollars and headaches to keep it. Plus, you'll gain some useful load by getting rid of it, and/or some performance thanks to your now-lighter plane.



It's pretty freaking amazing.



The G5s will show you standard rate turns:

View attachment 72064

Thanks Flyingcheesehead! Nothing better than starting your day with a good laugh and a visual like that! On a more serious note, I appreciate your perspective and input, especially the trend on the G5, which I didn't know about.

 

[bradg33]

a) I'd seriously re-consider upgrading to the 430W. It's still an expensive endeavor and that's still an old box at this point. I'm not an Avidyne fan, but I'd take a 440 over throwing $4k at a WAAS upgrade. I'd seriously consider your options on a more modern GPS that will give you a lot of life. What is your current nav/com #2? If something decent, I'd seriously consider something like a GTN625 or 635 with no nav radio. With a WAAS GPS, I see little need for 2 nav radios (I've got a GTN625 and a single nav radio myself).

Also, definitely go with the G5 HSI, well worth the money.

Vacuum removal shouldn't cost too much, few hours of labor at most. No point in keeping it, IMHO, given the battery backup on the G5.

 

[Marc J Woods]

Thank you Bradg33, so much to consider....appreciate your input.

 

[NordicDave]

Hello Everyone,
I'm about to upgrade my panel. I presently have a Garmin 430 and a KT76A transponder. My plan is to have the 430 upgraded to the 430WAAS and the transponder replaced with the Garmin 345 for compliance, and IN/OUT. Beyond these upgrades, I want to add the GFC500 autopilot with a G5 AI, as necessary. I want to keep my vaccum system as a back up in case of a power issue, (and to not go into more debt with removal). I'll simply move the old attitude indicator to my #2 CDI location and use the old #1 CDI in its place for my #2. I'm contemplating adding another G5 for an HSI while I'm at it. My Piper Archer II has a standard six pack lay out. My questions are: Is it still a good idea to have both vacuum and electric for redundancy? Does anyone know the cost of removing vacuum system? Any comments regarding the GFC500 autopilot? I see some pilots removing the TC and using AI in its stead. Isn't there a real need to know standard rate turns, such as in holding, etc in IFR?

I was in you r exact same situation a year and a half ago. Upgraded the 430 to WAAS and added GTX-345 and new PSE450A audio panel. Planning on adding G5's next year.

Blogged about it here with pics: http://welch.com/n46pg/category/avionics/

-David

 

[Glen R]

I recently installed two G5's and the GFC500. We did eliminate the vacuum system but I don't have a line item for that. I would guess it was about an hour or so in labor. You will love the combo and I would stick with your T-ponder choice of the GTX345. It's a great unit. The GFC500 is fantastic.

 

[Jim_CAK]

Ravioli, I do fly IFR. That’s why I’m a bit concerned about replacing TC wit AI ( times turns, Emerg, Etc.) I appreciate your input!
Chem geek, do you know approximately how much vacuum removal is? I’ll look into NGT 9000.
455BU I will definitely check into IFD440.
Thanks guys!

Marc - we just went through this analysis and conversion. The very important point was Avidyne was offering a discount on thier box, not a trade in. We got a $2,000 discount on an IFD 440 then got the old 430 back to sell. The discount plus the resale of your old 430 is significant. Plus we were replacing a 19 year old GPS with new technology.
Definitely check with Avidyne.

 

[Marc J Woods]

Jim, Thank you, and will do.

 

[Marc J Woods]

I recently installed two G5's and the GFC500. We did eliminate the vacuum system but I don't have a line item for that. I would guess it was about an hour or so in labor. You will love the combo and I would stick with your T-ponder choice of the GTX345. It's a great unit. The GFC500 is fantastic.

Glen, thanks for the good review and confirmation.