Panel loss above cloud layer VFR

[poadeleted20]

Ball's the same for both, and regardless of the instrument, it should show turn both gyroscopically and inertially.

Problem with a TC is that the gyro is tilted 45 degrees so it shows the sum of roll and yaw rates, not pure yaw rate like the needle on the old T&B. That creates significant problems for pilots trying to fly partial panel with a TC as their only gyro instrument since when rolling into a turn, they have to roll the plane until the wingtip is past the standard rate mark to enter a standard rate turn (and then wait for it to come back when they stop rolling), and past the zero-rate mark when rolling out of the turn (and again, wait for it to come back when they stop rolling). The amount past the mark varies with aircraft response and pilot aggressiveness on the controls, so it becomes a matter of touch and artistry as well as science. In addition, every gust which upsets the plane in roll creates an additional displacement of the TC indication just to confuse the pilot. Put it all together, and in my experience as an instrument instructor, pilots have a lot easier time partial panel with a T&B than with a TC.

 

[TMetzinger]

Problem with a TC is that the gyro is tilted 45 degrees so it shows the sum of roll and yaw rates, not pure yaw rate like the needle on the old T&B. That creates significant problems for pilots trying to fly partial panel with a TC as their only gyro instrument since when rolling into a turn, they have to roll the plane until the wingtip is past the standard rate mark to enter a standard rate turn (and then wait for it to come back when they stop rolling), and past the zero-rate mark when rolling out of the turn (and again, wait for it to come back when they stop rolling). The amount past the mark varies with aircraft response and pilot aggressiveness on the controls, so it becomes a matter of touch and artistry as well as science. In addition, every gust which upsets the plane in roll creates an additional displacement of the TC indication just to confuse the pilot. Put it all together, and in my experience as an instrument instructor, pilots have a lot easier time partial panel with a T&B than with a TC.

Agreed, but somehow lots of us managed to do it acceptably well with the TC. Now I'm spoiled because every airplane I fly has two AIs. Having done partial panel for real a few times (once with a T&B, the others with a TC), I consider the backup AI cheap insurance.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Meh. We bought the plane recently, are still sorting it out, flown very little since purchase. I haven't not flown it in two months, only fly it VFR. TC is not a required instrument for VFR flight. I don't look at it much in VFR flight. It might have been working when I last flew or perhaps it was not.

I am a very relaxed guy, BTW. Took my first skydive last Nov (AFF, never tandemed) and one of the instructors could not quite wrap his head around the fact that I was relaxed and joking on the way up. So yeah, if I am not sure about an IFR instrument in an airplane that I have never flown IFR in, for me, no biggie; not "doinitwrong". For you, something else, your perogative.

But hey, I am still learning, still improving. Working on my IR and perhaps that will ingrain the habit of checking the TC.

The point wasn't VFR/IFR, the point was that a failure could indicate something else going on in the systems, and it wasn't investigated. But it is your call as PIC. Good luck.

 

[alfadog]

I'm a relaxed VFR guy too, problem is you cannot take that attitude into the IFR world, it'll kill you.

Point taken. To a point. I do not think that competence and being relaxed are mutually exclusive. I am working on becoming more competent. I am not looking to become less relaxed.

So I am working on many aspects of my competence and particularly on the subject of checklists. I just think that there is a tendency to over-dramatize. The fact that I don't recall if the TC was working on my last flight means little more significance to me than I don't recall if the TC was working on my last flight. Am I going to add checking it to my preflight procedure for VFR flight? Sorry, but probably not. Not after I determine what is going on with it and have it repaired as needed.

 

[Henning]

Point taken. To a point. I do not think that competence and being relaxed are mutually exclusive. I am working on becoming more competent. I am not looking to become less relaxed.

So I am working on many aspects of my competence and particularly on the subject of checklists. I just think that there is a tendency to over-dramatize. The fact that I don't recall if the TC was working on my last flight means little more significance to me than I don't recall if the TC was working on my last flight. Am I going to add checking it to my preflight procedure for VFR flight? Sorry, but probably not. Not after I determine what is going on with it and have it repaired as needed.

My point of 'too relaxed' is that you didn't check to see that your TC was functioning while you were taxiing, I bet there was a bunch of other things that you didn't check before launching IFR. VFR it's no big deal to jump in a plane and find out something doesn't work, you can always use your eyes, ears, and a$$ to fly the plane. Once you go into the clouds, you only have your ears you can rely on and what's on the panel so you make sure it all works before launch if you can.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I do not think that competence and being relaxed are mutually exclusive. I am working on becoming more competent. I am not looking to become less relaxed.
I fully agree that competence and relaxation are not mutually exclusive. In fact relaxed and alert is the best state to be in while flying. I would submit however, that there is a HUGE difference between being relaxed and taking a lackadaisical attitude to failed equipment.

 

[alfadog]

I do not think that competence and being relaxed are mutually exclusive. I am working on becoming more competent. I am not looking to become less relaxed.
I fully agree that competence and relaxation are not mutually exclusive. In fact relaxed and alert is the best state to be in while flying. I would submit however, that there is a HUGE difference between being relaxed and taking a lackadaisical attitude to failed equipment.

Not lackadaisical. I noticed something was not working, I will get it fixed. I don't check the heater in my car either as I head off into the Florida heat. Doesn't mean the heater core might not spring a leak. Means it is not essential, required, or needed to be working for VFR flight. Just needs a placard (post-it note) to be fully legit. What is a "non-lackadaisical" attitude? "Uh-oh, the TC is not working, guess we can't launch." Perhaps in your environment and with your requirements and maintenance resources that is the correct call. Not for me.

 

[alfadog]

My point of 'too relaxed' is that you didn't check to see that your TC was functioning while you were taxiing, I bet there was a bunch of other things that you didn't check before launching IFR. VFR it's no big deal to jump in a plane and find out something doesn't work, you can always use your eyes, ears, and a$$ to fly the plane. Once you go into the clouds, you only have your ears you can rely on and what's on the panel so you make sure it all works before launch if you can.

There was no "launching IFR" involved. As I mention, I am working on my IR, but not in the Arrow. I make my share of errors, even more than my share; taking off VFR without knowing if I had a working TC is not one of them. I do not consider it an error.

 

[Clark1961]

There was no "launching IFR" involved. As I mention, I am working on my IR, but not in the Arrow. I make my share of errors, even more than my share; taking off VFR without knowing if I had a working TC is not one of them. I do not consider it an error.

Training for the IA ticket? Get in the habit now of checking all the instruments prior to flight. Any flight. Know before you go, always.

 

[alfadog]

Training for the IA ticket? Get in the habit now of checking all the instruments prior to flight. Any flight. Know before you go, always.

I agree. I am all about getting better. I am not about kicking myself for not, at 300 hours, having the habits of 10,000 hour pilot. I will get there and, God willing, I will remember what it was like when I wasn't there.

 

[Henning]

Not lackadaisical. I noticed something was not working, I will get it fixed. I don't check the heater in my car either as I head off into the Florida heat. Doesn't mean the heater core might not spring a leak. Means it is not essential, required, or needed to be working for VFR flight. Just needs a placard (post-it note) to be fully legit. What is a "non-lackadaisical" attitude? "Uh-oh, the TC is not working, guess we can't launch." Perhaps in your environment and with your requirements and maintenance resources that is the correct call. Not for me.

That is a fine VFR attitude, no worries, for IFR it will kill you. Stay VFR, it's easy enough to do. I do it, the only IMC/IFR I see is on my IPCs, and I ran the Cape Canaveral-St Pete T-storm line underneath along the beach making it from Atlanta to Lauderdale when airliners were on the ground waiting. You'll be much safer staying next to the ground than you will be in the clouds. I pretty much have the same attitude as you with 2000+hrs of ownership and piloting experience. I have saluted the sunset for pilot friends on more than one occasion, I have been in the clag building Ice on a no gyro approach resigned to dying all over deferred maint on my heater. I've crashed planes and never even considered the thought of death in the process, just what I had to do. This one I was in it long enough in time dilation that I had the chance to realize and accept dying. Ended up landing at full throttle with inches of ice, all because of deferred heater maint.

The difference between us is that I am willing and able to shift gears into a professional operating attitude for IFR operations. I suggest you develop this willingness and ability as well or just quit IFR.

 

[Henning]

I agree. I am all about getting better. I am not about kicking myself for not, at 300 hours, having the habits of 10,000 hour pilot. I will get there and, God willing, I will remember what it was like when I wasn't there.

It's all in who you fly with, I was very fortunate to have several 30,000hr WWII-on pilots who liked to take me flying with them; they answer a lot of questions on a 5 hr flight lol. One of them, although he was a Korea era guy was my CFII, Satan, $30hr for instructor & 172 wet. He really instilled in me the hardcore discipline it takes to be safe in IMC. SVT however changes the whole ballgame, different ball field even, a multi level one. It makes it so I don't need nearly as much time interpreting the panel to know my situation in space, and when things go wrong, things flash up and say so.

 

[gismo]

Your statement: I think the TC was working when I last flew the airplane but maybe not. Scared the heck out of me. I do not know everything about flying, am not an instructor and only have 11,400 hours, but your statement indicates to me a very relaxed approach to systems monitoring and safety. Aviation is something you either do right, or don't successfully do for very long.

If the OP was talking about launching into IMC I'd agree but I launch into VMC quite often without any working gyros.

 

[gismo]

The FAA does not permit the AI and TC to be powered by the same nonredundant source for IFR operations. It's not in 91.205(d), but it is in the certification requirements in Part 23 and CAR 3. And the Precise Flight SVS does not count as a redundant power source, since a vacuum leak in the lines will negate the utility of the SVS.

I agree with those who say the combination of high power setting and high altitude neutralized the SVS. As for the TC, I'm virtually certain it is electrically powered, and I suspect it was working better than you thought, but check it out with the shop anyway -- just to be sure.

While I agree with everything in your post, I have seen more than one airplane with all gyros powered by a vacuum pump (or venturis). It could be they predated CAR3 but more likely the original electric T&B was replaced by an air powered one at some point and that fact didn't get passed on to the current owner. Finally there's the Brittain TC which has both electric and vacuum power. With that one there have been several cases where the failure of the electric drive went unnoticed because it continued to work on air. At that point you lose it along with the air only powered AI and DG when the pump dies (I think this may have been the case in the Jacoby accident). There's a procedure for detecting this (listen for the spinning TC gyro before starting the engine).

 

[Henning]

There's a procedure for detecting this (listen for the spinning TC gyro before starting the engine).

Exactly, there was one of those in Jim's Navion; he pointed out to always listen for it to start spooling up after you hit the master. I thought it was a pretty cool feature.

 

[bbchien]

That is a fine VFR attitude, no worries, for IFR it will kill you.......

I think this is why "no smiley" on my earlier post...."serious" has its place, and IFR is that place.

 

[alfadog]

The difference between us is that I am willing and able to shift gears into a professional operating attitude for IFR operations. I suggest you develop this willingness and ability as well or just quit IFR.

And what makes you think I do not have that ability. You make a lot of assumptions for someone that has no idea of who I am or what my abilities are. You see a line in a forum post that you do not like and you are ready to puff your chest out and speak to my abilities? I repeatedly said this was a VFR situation. All of this brouhaha over why this would be so bad in IMC or IFR flight is irrelevant, to put it politely. To then use that irrelevency to cast aspersions on my character or ability is, well, I will stop here.

edit: It is one thing to say that I made an error in not verifying my IFR instruments before launching VFR what with me not even having an instrument rating. We can certainly have a discussion about that and I am more than willing and able to take advice and criticism from folks with more time in the airplane - or from those with less. Drawing broad generalizations about my attitude from this makes less sense to me but, hey, maybe that is just me. We can talk about that, too. Insulting and self-aggrandizing comparisons that are disparaging of my abilities (as opposed to my knowledge or practice)? No, thank you.

 

[Henning]

And what makes you think I do not have that ability. You make a lot of assumptions for someone that has no idea of who I am or what my abilities are.

I'm going by your own words. I'm not disparaging you, just telling you that you will not survive IFR with that attitude and to stay VFR. Do with that what you please. As far as 'self aggrandizing' issues, I'd consider you look at your screen name and consider your own attitude.

 

[alfadog]

I'm going by your own words. I'm not disparaging you, just telling you that you will not survive IFR with that attitude and to stay VFR. Do with that what you please. As far as 'self aggrandizing' issues, I'd consider you look at your screen name and consider your own attitude.

Um no. alfa not equal alpha. It is a play on words and a reference to Alfa Romeo, of which I have owned about a dozen, and my dog, Bear, who sticks his head out of the window of them. Bear is gone, I don't have any Alfa right now, and my present dog, Brownie, is not allowed in my MR2 Spyder and must content herself with sticking her head out the window of my beater GMC pickup - a situation she is just fine with. I drive the GMC more than the Spyder anyhow; I am kinda a pickup truck guy. Witness the fact that I bought an Arrow, which flies like a pickup truck drives.

And yes, you were disparaging of me and making much of a few words. And I seriously doubt you will find me much blowing my own horn.

 

[poadeleted20]

While I agree with everything in your post, I have seen more than one airplane with all gyros powered by a vacuum pump (or venturis).

Were they certified for IFR in their type certificates? Although the ones with independent venturis would qualify, even if those with a single vacuum pump powering all gyros would not.

It could be they predated CAR3 but more likely the original electric T&B was replaced by an air powered one at some point and that fact didn't get passed on to the current owner.

I suppose there are plenty of aircraft out there which have been improperly modified but are still being flown contrary to the rules applying to their operation.

 

[jaybee]

And what makes you think I do not have that ability. You make a lot of assumptions for someone that has no idea of who I am or what my abilities are. You see a line in a forum post that you do not like and you are ready to puff your chest out and speak to my abilities? I repeatedly said this was a VFR situation. All of this brouhaha over why this would be so bad in IMC or IFR flight is irrelevant, to put it politely. To then use that irrelevency to cast aspersions on my character or ability is, well, I will stop here.

edit: It is one thing to say that I made an error in not verifying my IFR instruments before launching VFR what with me not even having an instrument rating. We can certainly have a discussion about that and I am more than willing and able to take advice and criticism from folks with more time in the airplane - or from those with less. Drawing broad generalizations about my attitude from this makes less sense to me but, hey, maybe that is just me. We can talk about that, too. Insulting and self-aggrandizing comparisons that are disparaging of my abilities (as opposed to my knowledge or practice)? No, thank you.

Yes but you made a mistake and admitted to it in front of other pilots on a chat forum

whether or not that mistake was incidental to the type of flying that you do, whether or not you're idea of safe is the same as the staus quo and your refusal to accept that the status quo's idea of safe and whether it applies to your situation is immaterial

please accept this tongue in cheek lesson on Pilot Forum Talk 101 - No Matter How Right You Are If You Aren't In Agreement With The Status Quo Then You Are Wrong & Why You Never Admit Wrongdoing In Public for the broad generalizations that it presents

 

[gismo]

I suppose there are plenty of aircraft out there which have been improperly modified but are still being flown contrary to the rules applying to their operation.

I suspect that this is what I've encountered. I recall at least one instance where the owner/pilot was fully aware that all his gyros were powered by the single pump and he was convinced it was perfectly legal albeit not terribly safe. At least it was a wet pump.

 

[alfadog]

Yes but you made a mistake and admitted to it in front of other pilots on a chat forum

whether or not that mistake was incidental to the type of flying that you do, whether or not you're idea of safe is the same as the staus quo and your refusal to accept that the status quo's idea of safe and whether it applies to your situation is immaterial

please accept this tongue in cheek lesson on Pilot Forum Talk 101 - No Matter How Right You Are If You Aren't In Agreement With The Status Quo Then You Are Wrong & Why You Never Admit Wrongdoing In Public for the broad generalizations that it presents

Thanks for the relief

OK, here is the update on "lackadaisical" (I think I will name the Arrow "Lackadaisical")

On Monday, day after, I called my mechanic. He was moving hangars and not available to work on the airplane until today. I told him I wanted to do the annual a month early and pick up the pending squawks and these new issues.

He called today.

The shear pin on the vacuum pump shaft is sheared and the pump is seized. He recommended a Tempest pump. I ordered one brand-new from Aircraft Spruce, delivered to him.
My guess is that the pump failed near the end of the trip up or the beginning of the trip back. I had gyros on the way up with no manifold vacuum so it was working then. The SVS was probably never completely closed since I bought the airplane and that concealed the issue during run-up and up to 7000' feet or so. That was missed by likely five different and competent mechanics during 1) my prebuy in August, 2) the engine work in September, 3) the sort-out work in January, and, by the prior owner 4) the last annual in April, 5) another prior prebuy the owner gave me from May, and 5) sort-out work in June to address that prebuy. Not kicking myself over that one.

The TC is getting power but not spinning up. On his recommendation, we are sending it out for overhaul.
OK, this one I will count as an unforced error I will develop the habit to at least listen for the gyro during cabin preflight. Obviously, I need to develop the habit to check it on taxi also. I do do that but hit-or-miss, mostly when I am trying to put my instrument pilot hat on.

So the combination of a hinky SVS and a vacuum pump going out mid-trip led to an interesting situation and that is basically what I was drawing attention to

 

[gismo]

So the combination of a hinky SVS and a vacuum pump going out mid-trip led to an interesting situation and that is basically what I was drawing attention to

No smoking hole, not even soiled undergarments AFaIK. You made a small mistake (could have been a bigger mistake if you were IR and launching into the muck but that's not what happened here), handled it fine, learned a few things and are getting the problems fixed. Sounds like a win/win to me even though your experience as reported raised some eyebrows.

 

[dell30rb]

You'll be much safer staying next to the ground than you will be in the clouds.

Tell us about that time you got hit with a gust front close to the ground and crashed.

 

[Henning]

Tell us about that time you got hit with a gust front close to the ground and crashed.

There's a big difference between 3' and 25'. With 25' I would have had the altitude. I have over 1000hrs 100' and below working pipeline patrol and ag with one windshear incident in a spot in relationship to the clouds I would not have not been had I been flying cross country.

 

[alfadog]

No smoking hole, not even soiled undergarments AFaIK. You made a small mistake (could have been a bigger mistake if you were IR and launching into the muck but that's not what happened here), handled it fine, learned a few things and are getting the problems fixed. Sounds like a win/win to me even though your experience as reported raised some eyebrows.

Exactly, sir! Thank you.

 

[N801BH]

Exactly, sir! Thank you.

Alfa. Since you and Henning both live is South Fla I suggest you fly up to Ft, Liquordale, pick him up in your "lacsadaical" and fly somewhere for dinner. I am sure his probation officer will sign off on the" bonding moment".....

Ps.. Henning,, don't wussy out and just take him up on it..

 

[alfadog]

Alfa. Since you and Henning both live is South Fla I suggest you fly up to Ft, Liquordale, pick him up in your "lacsadaical" and fly somewhere for dinner. I am sure his probation officer will sign off on the" bonding moment".....

Ps.. Henning,, don't wussy out and just take him up on it..

Hey, I would shake his hand. It is easy to go overboard on forums, I have done it myself. No hard feelings on my end.

 

[Henning]

Alfa. Since you and Henning both live is South Fla I suggest you fly up to Ft, Liquordale, pick him up in your "lacsadaical" and fly somewhere for dinner. I am sure his probation officer will sign off on the" bonding moment".....

Ps.. Henning,, don't wussy out and just take him up on it..

I fly with anyone anywhere, no worries.

 

[alfadog]

I fly with anyone anywhere, no worries.

You are a brave soul. :wink2: But would you say the same thing if you had to sit in the back with two anyones at the controls?

 

[Henning]

You are a brave soul. :wink2: But would you say the same thing if you had to sit in the back with two anyones at the controls?

Yep, pretty much, we're all already dead just waiting for the moment. Since there's no way to determine the moment, there's no reason not to do something.

 

[alfadog]

Yep, pretty much, we're all already dead just waiting for the moment. Since there's no way to determine the moment, there's no reason not to do something.

I feel better already

 

[Anthony]

Have you heard back from your A&P on the source of the problem?

 

[alfadog]

Have you heard back from your A&P on the source of the problem?

See post #63