PA32, 210 or Bonanza

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SmashTime

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SmashTime
I love a good "which plane for me" thread. By the looks of the current topics, so does everyone else :D . I have 125 hours, all in a PA-28 235. Lots of XC time and less then 10 of IFR (Will be my focus in 2016)
As I window shop, I start to remember my wants and needs as a pilot when I was flying regularly (sold my 235 last March). My main mission is 2-300 mile trips with 2-4 adults for pleasure with the occasional business trip consisting of 400+ miles. No need for Turbo, or Pressurized Cabin.

-Speed
-More room in the back
-More shoulder room up front
-Better IFR platform
-Budget of 85K +/-

I might be a bit off on these generalized #'s. Correct me where needed please!

PA32
6 Seats
1500lbs+ useful
135-140 Knots
Handles like my 235
15-17GPH
Easy to insure (compared to retracts)

210
6 seats ( early models have 4)
1350lb+ useful
14-16GPH
155-165 Knots
I understand its not difficult to fly
Hard to load out of CG

V Tail Bonanza
5 or 6 Seats (really a 3 adult + baggage plane due to CG)
1100lbs+ useful
12-15GPH
160-170 Knots
Great value in todays market

I am 6'3 290lbs and my buddy is basically the same. If we take our wives with us (155lbs each), I'd like a decent safety margin in terms of gross weight. Which is why the 182, Comanche & Commander aren't in the discussion. Really, I think the Bo would have a hard time with the 4 adults loaded up.

I dont want to be crammed like the PA28 was lol. And I am concerned about the flying characteristics of a plane loaded with 600+lbs of flesh all in the front. (Probably a non-issue, but I'd like to know what to expect)
 
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PA32-300 or 260....and operating budget? Most of those with a decent panel and engine will run north of $80K to purchase and roughly $100/hr in variable costs + fixed costs.

300 miles isn't far enough to go for the speed demon. :no:

btw....you said Bonanza, but you really mean an 36. A six seater....and you ain't getting one below $100K worth keeping.

A nice 210 for $85K?.....right. :D
 
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I considered the PA32 300, but thought if I was spending upwards of 80-90k I'd rather have the additional speed of a 210.
 
of the 3 I only know the PA32. I just ran a few W&B scenarios with the 4 peeps u mentioned, it's not great news but you can make it work. easy plane to fly, plenty more room than the pa28 (cherokee/archer/arrow series, not sure about the 235).
 
eman1200 said:
of the 3 I only know the PA32. I just ran a few W&B scenarios with the 4 peeps u mentioned, it's not great news but you can make it work. easy plane to fly, plenty more room than the pa28 (cherokee/archer/arrow series, not sure about the 235).
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I'm kinda surprised by that, I figured the pa32 and 210 would eat that up. Guess being a big guy has its downfalls.

Probably not much room for baggage?
 
I'd go with the 210. But I'm experienced and partial to Cessna's.

You won't always be loaded to the gills either. And big guys like us, you will love the doors.

When flying alone or +1, I want speed. Always want speed, but you catch my drift ... :redface:
 
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SmashTime said:
I'm kinda surprised by that, I figured the pa32 and 210 would eat that up. Guess being a big guy has its downfalls.

Probably not much room for baggage?
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eh I'm shuffling your andre the giant asses around and it definitely can work. how do u feel about having 2 ladies sit in your lap and leaving your friend at home? that would leave some room for beer in the cooler.

;)
 
Not sure any of the aircraft will fit into your budget,I would tend to favor a 210 .
 
I have played this game for about a year now. I'm buying a Lance. Every time I rerun the numbers, I always end up with the PA32-300.

Good luck finding a decent one for $85k. If you are willing to take an original panel, sure it can be done. But in my research, you need to start at $100k for a serious XC plane. Modern GPS, 2x a/p, engine monitor, HSI, good comms.
 
eman1200 said:
eh I'm shuffling your andre the giant asses around and it definitely can work. how do u feel about having 2 ladies sit in your lap and leaving your friend at home? that would leave some room for beer in the cooler.

;)
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LOL..
 
I wouldn't fly a 210 if someone gave one to me.
 
Keep in mind that realistically those are like 4 person aircraft.

That said I'd probably get the V tail, always liked those planes and a 210 is a bit much plane for that mission.
 
1980 Piper ad:

pa32-c210-a36.jpg
 
The PA32-260 wont cost much more to own and operate than the -235.
 
I haven't flown any of them, but I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm also 6'3" 290lb, and my wife and I have a third kid on the way. The 182 is about to be one seat shy of our mission requirements. I have been going back and forth between the PA-32 and 210. The Bonanza won't do it for me, and it seems pretty marginal for you. If you don't need the rear seats (if you want to call them that), a strutless 210 seems like it would do the trick. I think the useful load gets up there pretty good after they went strutless and got more HP, IIRC. But, I'm not sure your budget would allow one of those. I think the PA-32 is about the only thing that will fit the bill. A Six 300 would be sweet, but if the Six 260 is fast enough for ya, they can be had a little cheaper and have the best useful load. I think the Six is the only thing that will work for me, but of course, I need 5 seats.

For what it's worth, I rode right seat in a friend's Lance a couple times, and it has a lot of room for a big boy. It was nice to be truly comfy for once. In fact, the only plane I've ridden in that compares comfort wise is the bulbous Piper Apache. Way more comfy than a 235.

Good luck.
 
SmashTime said:
Why is that? From what I understand once the gear doors are removed its a good plane?
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David had a really bad experience once with the hydraulic system on a 210 quite likely because it was a clapped out rental that hadn't been properly maintained. It's human nature to lump things into big groups thus now all 210s are pieces of schitt in David's world.

Can't really blame him, it was a pretty serious deal.
 
I've flown the V tail, A36 and the Lance/Cherokee 6. Some 210 but not enough to be able to comment on it. The V tail (BE35) I don't think will work with the cargo you're talking about. That's a lot of weight. Might if you leave less fuel and baggage , I dunno. What I liked about the Lance vs Bonanza was the cargo bin on the Lance between the panel and fireball basically. That helped tremendously in W&B as it something like 100#s or a little more. A36 Bonanza's 3rd row seating seating almost useless except for small kids. Maybe the 210 would work for ya! Good luck!
 
weilke said:
The PA32-260 wont cost much more to own and operate than the -235.
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SmashTime said:
Really? That's interesting.
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He's right. My last plane was a PA-32-260 and the current one is a V35A TC. The gear and other systems on the Bo are more than the Six....and if I were to pay for maintenance it woulda been more.

But the maintenance difference between a fixed gear PA-32 and your 28-235 is no mass.

The 35 is a 3 person trip plane....a 36 is a 4 person trip plane (or 4 +2).

The Six really is a 4 person full fuel and bring whatever you like plane. It's the closest to auto traveling in the GA league I've seen. It just has volumes of baggage space between the upfront baggage compartment and the rear, behind the rear seats.....there is room to pack just about anything you could possibly fit in a Suburban....plus 4 adults....very comfortably. The fixed gear version, Six, is just a large Cherokee....so maintenance-wise they are very similar in cost with the other large Dakota Cherokees.

With your budget.....$85K....you're not gonna get anything near recent in a 210 or 36 under $100K. A Six in that price range is possible with some shopping.

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1407805/1975-piper-cherokee-6-300

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1393819/1967-piper-cherokee-6-300
 
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OkieFlyer said:
I haven't flown any of them, but I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm also 6'3" 290lb, and my wife and I have a third kid on the way. The 182 is about to be one seat shy of our mission requirements. I have been going back and forth between the PA-32 and 210. The Bonanza won't do it for me, and it seems pretty marginal for you. If you don't need the rear seats (if you want to call them that), a strutless 210 seems like it would do the trick. I think the useful load gets up there pretty good after they went strutless and got more HP, IIRC. But, I'm not sure your budget would allow one of those. I think the PA-32 is about the only thing that will fit the bill. A Six 300 would be sweet, but if the Six 260 is fast enough for ya, they can be had a little cheaper and have the best useful load. I think the Six is the only thing that will work for me, but of course, I need 5 seats.

For what it's worth, I rode right seat in a friend's Lance a couple times, and it has a lot of room for a big boy. It was nice to be truly comfy for once. In fact, the only plane I've ridden in that compares comfort wise is the bulbous Piper Apache. Way more comfy than a 235.

Good luck.
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I'm considering a move to the Tuttle/Mustang area. Maybe I could check out the pa32 you get?
 
SmashTime said:
Really? That's interesting.
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2 more seats to upholster. Other than that, very similar systems. You'll burn a bit more fuel and pay slightly more for insurance due to extra seats and higher hull value.
Of course, compared with the Bo or 210 you give up some speed and burn more fuel per mile travelled. Otoh, you dont have gearboxes, flap actuators, gear bushings and all the other things that nickle and dime you to death on a Bo or retract cessna.
 
SmashTime said:
I love a good "which plane for me" thread. By the looks of the current topics, so does everyone else :D . I have 125 hours, all in a PA-28 235. Lots of XC time and less then 10 of IFR (Will be my focus in 2016)
As I window shop, I start to remember my wants and needs as a pilot when I was flying regularly (sold my 235 last March). My main mission is 2-300 mile trips with 2-4 adults for pleasure with the occasional business trip consisting of 400+ miles. No need for Turbo, or Pressurized Cabin.

-Speed
-More room in the back
-More shoulder room up front
-Better IFR platform
-Budget of 85K +/-

I might be a bit off on these generalized #'s. Correct me where needed please!

PA32
6 Seats
1500lbs+ useful
135-140 Knots
Handles like my 235
15-17GPH
Easy to insure (compared to retracts)

210
6 seats ( early models have 4)
1350lb+ useful
14-16GPH
155-165 Knots
I understand its not difficult to fly
Hard to load out of CG

V Tail Bonanza
5 or 6 Seats (really a 3 adult + baggage plane due to CG)
1100lbs+ useful
12-15GPH
160-170 Knots
Great value in todays market

I am 6'3 290lbs and my buddy is basically the same. If we take our wives with us (155lbs each), I'd like a decent safety margin in terms of gross weight. Which is why the 182, Comanche & Commander aren't in the discussion. Really, I think the Bo would have a hard time with the 4 adults loaded up.

I dont want to be crammed like the PA28 was lol. And I am concerned about the flying characteristics of a plane loaded with 600+lbs of flesh all in the front. (Probably a non-issue, but I'd like to know what to expect)
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With these weights, cross a Bo off your list. You can get the CG to work, but when you add luggage and want the range you're looking for in fuel, you are over gross.
 
GLMS_NC said:
With these weights, cross a Bo off your list. You can get the CG to work, but when you add luggage and want the range you're looking for in fuel, you are over gross.
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That's what I was afraid of.

I want the 210 for its speed.

Does anyone have the operating costs for a 210?
 
SmashTime said:
That's what I was afraid of.
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A36 with tip tanks or tip tanks and turbo has the payload and CG to do it. But thats a 160-200k plane.


I want the 210 for its speed.

Does anyone have the operating costs for a 210?
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A bad one will take everything you have. A good one wont. Applies to any complex plane.
 
Would you consider a turbo 206? It will do 155 knots at 12500 feet. If you're willing to use oxygen you can get 165-170 kts at 17500 feet. It's a great four person with lots of luggage plane. Third row is okay for kids. It will handle your loads really well, and cheaper to maintain (even with the turbo) compared to the 210.
 
bikert said:
Would you consider a turbo 206? It will do 155 knots at 12500 feet. If you're willing to use oxygen you can get 165-170 kts at 17500 feet. It's a great four person with lots of luggage plane. Third row is okay for kids. It will handle your loads really well, and cheaper to maintain (even with the turbo) compared to the 210.
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How so? :dunno:
 
RotorAndWing said:
So for the 300 mile flight getting there an average of 15 minutes earlier is that important?
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I'm thinking it's important on that 900 nm trip to Vegas:)

I'll pull back to save fuel most every trip.
 
RotorAndWing said:
How so? :dunno:
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Assuming you look after the engine. If you're ham fisted then no. Just from my experiences of owning one and comparing my maintenance costs to someone who owned a 210. If the turbo scares you look at a NA one. I think the 206 is an under appreciated plane. The 210 has a horrible retractable gear system.
 
bikert said:
Assuming you look after the engine. If you're ham fisted then no. Just from my experiences of owning one and comparing my maintenance costs to someone who owned a 210. If the turbo scares you look at a NA one. I think the 206 is an under appreciated plane.
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You cannot do a true comparison unless the 2 airplanes are identical, and identical in the way they are maintained. It's very conceivable a 206 (turbo or not) could be a maintenance pig against a professionally maintained 210


bikert said:
The 210 has a horrible retractable gear system.
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Based upon?? I had a 210K that I had zero gear issues with. I know others with 210's that have had no issues with the gear.

It all comes down to maintenance.
 
RotorAndWing said:
You cannot do a true comparison unless the 2 airplanes are identical, and identical in the way they are maintained. It's very conceivable a 206 (turbo or not) could be a maintenance pig against a professionally maintained 210




Based upon?? I had a 210K that I had zero gear issues with. I know others with 210's that have had no issues with the gear.

It all comes down to maintenance.
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Okay, fair enough. Point taken.
 
weilke said:
A36 with tip tanks or tip tanks and turbo has the payload and CG to do it. But thats a 160-200k plane.
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An A36 can do this? He asked about a vtail, and no way it can pull this off. My useful load is not close to 1,400 pounds. With tip tanks.

290 per pass x2 = 580 lbs
155 per pass x2 = 310 lbs
400 mi fuel plus required 1 hour reserve is 75 gallons = 450 lbs

Luggage, pilot gear, etc is easily 60 pounds.

580+310+450+60=1,400 lbs by my math.

I have no clue about a 210 or pa32.
 
GLMS_NC said:
An A36 can do this? He asked about a vtail, and no way it can pull this off. My useful load is not close to 1,400 pounds. With tip tanks.
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That's why I said an A36 with tips and turbo, right ? :rolleyes2:
 
James331 said:
So what do your recommend to the OP?
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I could care less what someone buys. My point was in the 3 airplanes listed, there is not enough of a speed difference on a 300 mile trip (as suggested by the OP) to make any real difference.

If getting somewhere 15 minutes faster is a deal breaker (for them), then by all means go for the fastest.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I could care less what someone buys. My point was in the 3 airplanes listed, there is not enough of a speed difference on a 300 mile trip (as suggested by the OP) to make any real difference.

If getting somewhere 15 minutes faster is a deal breaker (for them), then by all means go for the fastest.
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Be constructive :yes:


Any aircraft that you think would fit his mission and budget?

Even ones not on his list, if it were you what would you choose as your saddle?
 
RotorAndWing said:
I could care less what someone buys. My point was in the 3 airplanes listed, there is not enough of a speed difference on a 300 mile trip (as suggested by the OP) to make any real difference.

If getting somewhere 15 minutes faster is a deal breaker (for them), then by all means go for the fastest.
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When I'd fly 250NM in the 235 sometimes due to the wind it would take 1.5 hours or 2 hours..... I hated it when it took the 2 hours, it definitely made a difference to my butt.

My dream trip would either be to Florida or Vegas. I'd appreciate the speed then even more.

I read somewhere if you get all the Laminar Flow upgrades for the SIX 260 it can get in the 140knot range. Which would be better then the 125-130 I'm seeing otherwise.
 
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