PA28-181 Panel light glitch

So we what do you recommend?
Since you're on the entry-level side any meter will do provided you don't plan to be adjusting critical systems in the near future. If possible get one that measures at least 10 amps DC in case you ever want to chase a parasitic drain on your electrical system one day. If in the future you want to get more electrically involved then you can look to upgrade to the better meters like Fluke, Greenlee, Klien, etc. I have a number of throwaway HF Cen-Tech meters stashed in various places for just in case and reserve my important checking to my Fluke meter.
 
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I have some cheap meters. I don't use them often. Cheap meters have cheap leads and cheap selector switches. The leads are stiff (cheap insulation) and short, and the contacts in the meters are often sketchy. The switches are flimsy and can be intermittent.

I have one or two Extech meters I bought 20 years ago. Digital. Not expensive, but good stuff.

But mostly I use the Sanwa I bought 50 years ago. Analog, most handy for watching trends as I wiggle wires and stuff to find the defective connections, and to see voltages fluctuate during troubleshooting.

If I bought another (as if I needed more meters) I think it would have a clamp-on DC ammeter function. I have the AC clamp-on already, but it's useless for measuring DC amps. I have one meter that has a 10-amp DC scale, but one has to break the line to put the meter in series to measure the current. That's a pain.
 
So that wheel also turns on the nav lights. The max dim doesn’t appear to have an integrated switch, so the idea to use it with the existing wheel won’t seem to work.
 
So that wheel also turns on the nav lights. The max dim doesn’t appear to have an integrated switch, so the idea to use it with the existing wheel won’t seem to work.
If the Maxdim was needed, and worked out as hoped with the wheel knob on the right for panel lights, that is not an issue for this situation as a strict switch function output is not needed.
However, the wheel on the left is responsible for the undimmed output to the Nav lights and my Tailbeacon, while the dimming circuitry is for some nav gauges. If confronted by the left Pot failure now, I would consider using the Maxdim for the gauges only, and swapping a single toggle for a split toggle switch to match the others in that console. I would put both the Nav lights and Tailbeacon on that.
 
Hey folks, look carefully at this photo again. Does something appear wrong with the bracket crossing the transistor? The right side screw appears broken and bracket sagging as a result. Could that be the failure visible on only inspection?

upload_2023-4-11_11-13-16.png

Maybe not since the other transistor has a somewhat similar oblique appearance.
(For some reason, I can’t add the second photo on edit)
 
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A note in passing. Piper has been using MaxDim in all the new aircraft for many years. Doesn’t need anyone’s approval anymore for install because of the STC.

I didn’t care that it doesn’t match the other wheel…it’s solid state and the airplane will fall apart before the MaxDim will fail. I went the Wentworth route, got something definitely old and immediately sent it back.

Does it cost more? Substantially more than a $2 transistor but more reliable than 50+ yr old electronics.
 
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A note in passing. Piper has been using MaxDim in all the new aircraft for many years. Doesn’t need anyone’s approval anymore for install because of the STC.

I didn’t care that it doesn’t match the other wheel…it’s solid state and the airplane will fall apart before the MaxDim will fail. I went the Wentworth route, got something definitely old and immediately sent it back.

Does it cost more? Substantially more than a $2 transistor but more reliable than 50+ yr old electronics.

I took note of your earlier comment about Piper using Maxdim on their newer aircraft, however, I could be wrong but I think they did away with the exact same panel on the Archer3. I don’t think they use those thumb wheels on them.

But regarding your replacement using a Maxdim, did you put it in the same mounting as noted in my photos and just modified the presentation of their standard knob through the opening?
 
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That's the collector terminal. The screws are likely against the transistor case and carry the collector current into that strip, which will also be under the other screw. If that other screw is loose, or is insulated from the case, or if the strip is contacting the base or emitter terminals, then you might have problems.
 
I took note of your earlier comment about Piper using Maxdim on their newer aircraft, however, I could be wrong but I think they did away with the exact same panel on the Archer3. I don’t think they use those thumb wheels on them.

But regarding your replacement using a Maxdim, did you put it in the same mounting as noted in my photos and just modified the presentation of their standard knob through the opening?
The black knob extends out the panel at 90 deg in the original location on the right side of the switch panel, the old thumb wheel is somewhere in a trash dump. Made no attempt to make it look like the original equipment or the thumb wheel on the left side of the switch panel. I’ll never try to retain the original vintage style, it’s a cherokee. Too many of them to worry about keeping “the look”. I’m more interested in safety and maintainability.
 
That's the collector terminal. The screws are likely against the transistor case and carry the collector current into that strip, which will also be under the other screw. If that other screw is loose, or is insulated from the case, or if the strip is contacting the base or emitter terminals, then you might have problems.

That collector terminal looks nothing like Lon Stratton’s, but it may appear similar to my other transistor.(see photo).

upload_2023-4-11_16-12-43.png

When I go back to the plane with my VOM, I will put a probe on that. I’d guess if it is loose to contact, that would be a telltale.

Let’s say it is loose, would that mean that turning the screw heads on the other side could tighten it down properly if the screws are not broken and the proper insulating sleeves are still in place? (Are those the same screws that would be removed if replacing the transistor?)
 
Let’s say it is loose,
FYI: I think its just the perspective of the photo. The transistor screws don't look loose. To remove the transistor you'll unscrew the 2 screws and it will move up as the 2 pins slide out the receptacle. The receptacle remains attached to the plate. The pins are offset to the mount holes so it will only go in one way.
 
That collector terminal looks nothing like Lon Stratton’s, but it may appear similar to my other transistor.(see photo).

View attachment 116514

When I go back to the plane with my VOM, I will put a probe on that. I’d guess if it is loose to contact, that would be a telltale.

Let’s say it is loose, would that mean that turning the screw heads on the other side could tighten it down properly if the screws are not broken and the proper insulating sleeves are still in place? (Are those the same screws that would be removed if replacing the transistor?)
You have a busted screw. Same screw that mounts the transistor. Likely no insulating sleeve in that installation.

The broken screw head might be rattling around up there somewhere, causing your intermittency issues.
 
Let me give a f/u, however unsatisfactory as it is.

Finally got around to trying to troubleshoot with a VOM.
You folks have warned me about the difficulties. Trying to do anything under the panel is downright dangerous to your neck and potentially dangerous to your breathing ability with the passenger seat still in place. But even with that seat out , I question how much direct visibility will exist for lead testing. Taking pictures with a thin IPhone and translating that to a reasonable view without disassembly is not easy.

Well what could I do to get some info? I just wanted to start creating a list of knowns to help in the diagnosis, even if they confirm the obvious.

I took out the KT76A to give a view of the transistors. I tried to take out the KX170B above that but turning the cam about 4 turns ended in a hard stop without movement of that radio, (I did not want to force it) unlike the KT76A which allowed multiple turns that backed that radio out.

Given the tiny area open to me, I started by using the continuity function. I could barely get the lead to touch the case of the transistor and one screw holding it down. Besides the fact that the transistor mounting seemed totally solid, there was no continuity with the avionics stack frame and that transistor or screw. There was continuity with the screw and transistor case.

Next I used the Voltage tester. There was no voltage detected from frame to transistor case without turning on any switches but the following info was determined: initially, Zero volts detected after master alone turned on and Zero volts with the right POT switch sequentially turned on and knob rotated.

But on second try, 0 after Master alone ,but adding the POT exhibited 12.14 on full turning, then 12.49 at near closing (I noticed the panel lights were now on.), then Zero when Pot switch closed.

For comparison, the POT on the Left for the Nav lights/TailBeacon was 11.69 after master and avionics master turned on and POT turned all the way, then 11.90 when just before the turn off point.

So what was learned. The initial try showed the fault not allowing the panel lights to activate and nothing at the transistor collector, but that second try allowed voltage to be picked up at the collector, and was variable, and turned on the panel lights.

Once that happened, further testing, even if I had access from the backside, would not have been productive this session. The ambient temperature was about 75 degrees, so maybe the fault will me more prevalent and last the historical 10 minutes in the cold.

So besides waiting to remove the seat, or possibly gaining better access by removing the right essentially radioless adjacent part of panel, I could try for slightly greater access by figuring out how KX 170B comes out, and maybe the GNS430W.

I also may just tolerate this as it’s little more than an nuisance some of the time. Maybe, the smarter thing to do is wait for next annual and ask my IA to just swap that right transistor for a new one ( which has been suggested by you ) and hope for the best. That is cheap and simple to do, even for me if allowed after getting those radios out of the way.

Another thought is to purchase some interesting test leads with right angles and maybe half loops, if they exist. Also, the use of an inexpensive fiber optic video device, like those used to examine cylinders and valves, could then be used to turn in conjunction with a testing lead to more easily complete the direct testing from my stack opening.
 
Trying to do anything under the panel is downright dangerous
Isn't it fun? Just think if you were installing all new radios and indicators and had to remove the old stuff. The more you can remove to make access easier the better.
I tried to take out the KX170B above that but turning the cam about 4 turns ended in a hard stop without movement of that radio,
Sometimes radios and their connectors can be tight. One trick is to loosen the mount screw till it barely binds then grab the radio and gently wiggle it out till it hits the tang then loosen on the screw some more and repeat.
Maybe, the smarter thing to do is wait for next annual and ask my IA to just swap that right transistor for a new one
This. But buy 2 new transistors and replace both. If that doesn't work then you'll be in a better place to troubleshoot more. However, my money is on the transistor. Gook luck.
 
Looks like the Maxdim dimmer would fit into an open hole on the circuit breaker panel.
 
You folks have warned me about the difficulties. Trying to do anything under the panel is downright dangerous to your neck and potentially dangerous to your breathing ability with the passenger seat still in place. But even with that seat out , I question how much direct visibility will exist for lead testing. Taking pictures with a thin IPhone and translating that to a reasonable view without disassembly is not easy.

Isn't it fun? Just think if you were installing all new radios and indicators and had to remove the old stuff. The more you can remove to make access easier the better.

This is one of the things owners don't appreciate about aircraft maintenance. Getting at components to troubleshoot or fix or replace them can be mighty difficult. There are some components that make you wonder if the factory took that component, stuck it in the jig, and then built the airplane around it. The power supply for the electroluminescent panel in the 210 seems that way. Replacing it is more like laparoscopic surgery than mechanics. Some of the stuff on a backside of a 185's engine is miserably hard to get at, as are the controls on the engine of a Lake amphib. Never worked on a 337, but they tell me that the rear engine installation is a real piece of work.

And it's also why so much stuff goes uninspected under that panel. Why else would I find ancient vacuum filters rotting away? Vacuum hoses kinked or hard and brittle with age? Landing light wires and switches discolored and half-melted? Wires and hoses being snagged or abraded by the controls? Loose terminals on the ignition switch? Certain instruments with outstanding ADs? Or an ACS mag switch installed while the Bendix mag switch AD check has been performed for 30 years instead of the ACS AD?

Because no one's been under there for many years.
 
Finally have feedback to report. Annual is done but don’t have the bill yet. But all my research with all your contributions really made this a simple process for my A&P to just change the transistors in their very accessible location.

So, the result is that the panel lights now work like they used to. That is, when I would turn them on, sometimes they would be on, or require recycling the vertical switch once or several times. But there is no other delay requiring minutes that was present more recently.

The recycling of the switch, from what has been said earlier in this thread, is likely that required to scrape the surface corrosion to make better contact in the potentiometer. This is no biggie as I don’t feel the need to change to a Maxdim. In fact, I would say that this has been the situation for the past 20 years or so.

So thanks all.

As a side note, this project turned out to be the impetus for me to learn how to track down a bad glitchy wiring problem in my classic corvette. That turned out to be a corroded wiring connector so I’m very proud of myself since nobody wanted to go near it for a sane price. I’m discovering that there are a lot of things I can do!
 
I’m discovering that there are a lot of things I can do!
I wish more people would take an interest in learning new skills. When I was a kid, I think the majority of men could change the sparkplugs plugs and ignition points in their cars, change the oil, change the tires, change a headlight, change a fan belt, fix the clothes dryer, clear a plumbing blockage, and fix house wiring.

The proliferation of rapid-oil-change shops proves that owners have no clue anymore, or even the desire. Some might not have a place to do it. Cars are nearly maintenance-free now, too. Getting an electrician or plumber is getting harder, as fewer young folks are going into the trades, and the ones that are certified are too busy. The average dude can barely change a light bulb now.
 
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