PA-28 & C-152 Death Traps?

dell30rb said:
The only thing that being in the utility category will get you is a slightly higher G limit, and in a high-wing (c172 or C152) the ability to spin the aircraft.

In a cherokee you are not supposed to bank past 60 degrees when in the normal category (You'll pull some G's in that turn).
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Oh, right, yeah. Of course.

No, this was a completely straight descent in completely stable air. It was fun!
 
dell30rb said:
In a cherokee you are not supposed to bank past 60 degrees when in the normal category (You'll pull some G's in that turn).
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I can bank any aircraft 60 degrees and not pull any extra g's. The question is whether I want to maintain altitude while doing it.
 
John Baker said:
Wandering around trying to remember which plane is mine, and where I left her tied down sometimes is a problem at the FBO, but no big deal.
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It really doesn't matter. Your key will probably fit them all. Just take your pick.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm not even sure what this "grey box" is. However, maneuvering speed does go up and down with weight -- heavier = higher Va. Also, the lighter you are, the slower you need to go in turbulence because the amount of force applied to the wing by the up/downdraft will be the same (same air velocity, same wing area), but the resultant g-force on the plane (total force applied to wing divided by weight) will be greater, and that greater g-load is what overstresses components.
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You forgot to add that maneuvering speed (Va) is supposed to be the speed airplane will stall before causing structural damage.

Va is based on the weight of the airplane and response to some foot/second gust (rapid control deflection = gust in this case). Trouble is, gusts can sometimes exceed the certification test specs.

Thankfully, airplanes are pretty strong and over-engineered (fudge factor here and there adds up), so you're *probably* safe flying at or below Va when it's rough out.
 
onwards said:
Oh, right, yeah. Of course.

No, this was a completely straight descent in completely stable air. It was fun!
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Near sunset or at night, with reasonably calm winds over flat terrain and you haven't experienced any turbulence you're just fine to go buzzing around in the yellow airspeed zone (smooth air only). Regardless if its just you and 5 gallons of gas or if you have the thing loaded to gross.

Careful though.. on a hot summer day you can fly for hours above the fair weather cloud deck without a single bump and enjoy a few extra knots on your descent... next thing you know the humidity will jump 70% and your head will be bouncing off the top of the cockpit! If you're ever "not sure" make your descent at or below Va.
 
Witmo said:
I can bank any aircraft 60 degrees and not pull any extra g's.
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...but only until the aircraft reaches terminal velocity. As speed increases, eventually drag will rise to counter the acceleration due to gravity, and you will again stabilize in a 1g condition (although possibly minus several important things like wings and horizontal stabs).
 
dmccormack said:
You forgot to add that maneuvering speed (Va) is supposed to be the speed airplane will stall before causing structural damage.
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...in full-deflection maneuvering flight, not zero-deflection turbulence, and since maneuvering was the not issue, I didn't forget it, I chose to omit it as irrelevant (unless, of course, you try to fight the turbulence with full deflection control inputs, in which case you'd better be down to Va, not just turbulence penetration speed).
 
wabower said:
The rank-and-file are not widely acclaimed for their abilities as nuance detectors. Apparently, for good reason.
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THIS IS THE INTERNET - ONLY FOOLS RELY ON NUANCE. It isn't always possible to tell when someone's comment isn't genuine. I haven't seen this much reliance on nuance since the holographic images of the WTC buildings collapsing - no doubt due to inhalation of contrail/chemtrail gases causing people to not see the real reality.

Reminds me of a similar case regarding the use of irony in the movie "Roxanne":
Oh, irony! Oh no, we don't get that here. See, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was tired of being stared at.
​
Full context is here:

 
Jim Logajan said:
THIS IS THE INTERNET - ONLY FOOLS RELY ON NUANCE. It isn't always possible to tell when someone's comment isn't genuine. I haven't seen this much reliance on nuance since the holographic images of the WTC buildings collapsing - no doubt due to inhalation of contrail/chemtrail gases causing people to not see the real reality.

Reminds me of a similar case regarding the use of irony in the movie "Roxanne":
Oh, irony! Oh no, we don't get that here. See, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was tired of being stared at.
​
Full context is here:

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Haha I didn't get that but it made me laugh anyway :D

<---<^>--->
 
Ron Levy said:
...in full-deflection maneuvering flight, not zero-deflection turbulence, and since maneuvering was the not issue, I didn't forget it, I chose to omit it as irrelevant (unless, of course, you try to fight the turbulence with full deflection control inputs, in which case you'd better be down to Va, not just turbulence penetration speed).
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If we're in turbulence significant enough to require slowing to Va, my guess is we cannot predict that we will or won't need full deflection.

In addition, Va is not as simple as that.

From FAA AFH (FAA-H-8083):
Maneuvering Speed (Va) is the maximum speed where full, abrupt control movement can be used without over-stressing the airframe.[/COLOR]
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According to AC 90-89a:
MANEUVERING SPEED (Va) = 2 times the aircraft’s predicted stall speed.
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In CFR Part 23 Chapter 1 we find:

(c) Design maneuvering speed VA. For VA, the following applies:
(1) VA may not be less than VS[radic]n where--
(i) VS is a computed stalling speed with flaps retracted at the
design weight, normally based on the maximum airplane normal force
coefficients, CNA; and
(ii) n is the limit maneuvering load factor used in design
(2) The value of VA need not exceed the value of VC used in design.
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The Naval Aviator's Flight Training Handbook states:

For our purposes in the Training Command, cornering speed and the optimum AOA’s are the most important indicators of maximum performance. Cornering speed, introduced as “maneuvering speed” in Aerodynamics, is indicated on the Vn diagram and is defined as the minimum airspeed at which you can pull the max g (the structural limit of the aircraft).
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In the excellent Flight Maneuvers and Emergency Training FlighLab text "Maneuvering Speed Va" is defined:

As defined by the V-n diagram, maneuvering
speed, VA, is the maximum speed at which an
aircraft in symmetrical flight at the specified
flight weight and configuration will stall
(unload) before exceeding limit load and
sustaining possible structural damage. Aircraft
are therefore aerodynamically g-limited by the
lift line up to maneuvering speed, and
structurally g-limited by the load line above it.
Maneuvering speed is also the maximum speed
for turbulent air penetration, although a speed
somewhat less—fast enough to avoid stall yet
slow enough to diminish the loads
experienced—is usually recommended. (In an
aircraft subjected to a sharp vertical gust of given
intensity, the increase in structural load—and
thus the acceleration the pilot feels—varies
directly with airspeed.)
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Finally, the NTSB final report on Airbus AA Flight 587 crash advises:

There is a widespread misunderstanding among pilots about the degree of structural protection that exists when full or abrupt flight control inputs are made at airspeeds below the maneuvering speed.
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dell30rb said:
Near sunset or at night, with reasonably calm winds over flat terrain and you haven't experienced any turbulence you're just fine to go buzzing around in the yellow airspeed zone (smooth air only). Regardless if its just you and 5 gallons of gas or if you have the thing loaded to gross.

Careful though.. on a hot summer day you can fly for hours above the fair weather cloud deck without a single bump and enjoy a few extra knots on your descent... next thing you know the humidity will jump 70% and your head will be bouncing off the top of the cockpit! If you're ever "not sure" make your descent at or below Va.
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Agreed. This was a beautiful clear night, figured I'd give it a shot to experience what it felt like to go that speed.

Of course, now that I'm flying a 182, that's my normal speed... now I need to find something that can go 200kts :)
 
I flew my death trap up to Hemmet from San Diego KMYF. My brother lives up on the mountain, so he picked me up and gave me the grand tour and lunch. Nice little town Idylwild is.

We didn't get down off the mountain until dark. I preflighted my death trap and flew her back to KMYF. This was my very first night operation since getting my PPL and also the first night flight without an instructor, I was all alone in my PA 28-161 death trap.

The entire flight went just great until I made my first call in. I was told to squawk 0400 and make for 28R. I was coming in from the east. Well, it was a sea of lights and I was having a little trouble finding the airport. The tower called and wanted to know if I was having trouble in my death trap, I guess I was wandering a little. I told the controller I was having a tough time spotting the airport, so he turned up the approach lights, and there it was, piece of cake. Greased it in, cleared the runway, then wandered around some more trying to find my new tie down. I eventually found it without the tower volunteering their help.

All and all, a great day of flying a death trap. Only one little hiccup.

John
 
dell30rb said:
Yeah.. You're still alive!!
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That's funny, it is exactly what I told the tower when I cleared the runway, "thanks for saving my life out there." I got a few seconds of silence, then he came back on and said...."uh....your welcome."

He sounded so serious, I decided not to tell him I was yanking his chain.

Ya gotta have fun, or it just ain't worth doing.

John
 
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