Owning your own airplane for flight training?

There will probably be some landings during training that you will be glad you don't own the airplane.
 
wabower said:
The primary problem with an own-vs-rent analysis is that it's like dancing with a bear. When you own, you can't quit when you're tired, only when the bear is tired.
Click to expand...


Yeah, then the bear eats you.
 
Make sure you buy what you are going to use in the years to come. Don't matter the complexity or size. You will save up on the transition hours (training and experience) and gain a lot of proficiency on your traveling machine while doing your primary and instrument training. better learn on what you are planning to fly. Us mortals pretty much rent a 172 and go on with our training.
 
Alexb2000 said:
There will probably be some landings during training that you will be glad you don't own the airplane.
Click to expand...


Yep, I'd have to look in my logbook from 20 years ago to give you the tail number, but there's a 150 somewhere that I learned in that certainly doesn't have the same shape gear box that it did before I flew it.:rolleyes:
 
wabower said:
whatever financial results have been obtained in years past should not be used as an estimate of those that could reasonably be expected in the future. Used airplane prices were relatively steady for many years, but those days are behind us.
Click to expand...
Ignoring the buy-sell price differences, the out-of-pocket costs of buying and then selling an airplane are going to be in the area of $3-5K. That alone pays for most of the aircraft rental costs for an average Private Pilot course. I still say rent until you're sure you're going to complete, and then buy the plane you want after you get your Private (unless $5K is "chump change" to you).
 
Not wanting to throw cold water on the idea, but once you have 1. access to a plane and have 2. solved the issue of finding an independent CFI, then you have 3. to also deal with the pesky issue of [liability] insurance that covers you and the owner and the CFI. The item # 3 could pose a problem depending on the way you will have access to the plane [pay more than fuel?] and what risk the CFI is willing to take.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
No, it will not. The costs of purchasing and then selling an airplane will exceed the savings over a rental. Only if you keep the plane after training and continue to fly it at least 75 hours a year will that plan save money over a rental.

Above is based on owning four different planes over the last 35 years.
Click to expand...

I started flying in feb 2011 and as of today have 161hrs. I fly in a club with a low hourly cost, but the break even still occurs at around 100 hrs a year.

To buy or not to buy, it depends on the options around you. If you can find a reasonably priced school or club, do that. 90 percent of time that is the best route. Mostly due to insurance.

I'm kinda in the market for buying a plane in a partnership here soon and I have a friend who has flown with me several times, wants to get his pilot's license and also is interested in buying a plane in a partnership. I'm going to recommend that he get his license first, then maybe we can buy a plane. This is due to insurance, and also I don't want his student pilot self dancing down the runway on the nosewheel of my airplane!
 
Last edited:
Your best bet, take up tennis.:D
Seriously, your idea of saving up the money in advance of training is a good idea, whether you are renting or borrowing a plane, being able to keep flying on a regular basis will get you through your PPL.
I have a 182 that my son can fly anytime he wants at no cost to him, it costs me of course, but not him. He still struggles with: A. time B. weather C. CFI schedule. I have eliminated the cost excuse, but it's still taking him a long time, if you don't fly for a couple weeks you get rusty and it takes time to get comfortable again.

HatTrickHero11 said:
Well I will give you a hint of who I'm not voting for; He is our current president. That should be a good enough hint I think.

So basically, my best bet is to save up money, and just go full force into training during an upcoming summer and save money that way?
Click to expand...
 
My airplane costs me approximately $4500 per year if I don't fly it at all!
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
What would be the pros and cons of owning your own plane to do flight training in?
Click to expand...
Pros:
Availability
Knowledge of how it's being maintained and treated
Probably more knowledge about various aspects of the airplane
Intangible pride of ownership

Cons:
Major financial commitment
Unpredictability of future maintenance costs
Unpredictability of future resale price
Inability to walk away easily if you decide flying is not for you or if your personal situation changes
 
Go to Wal-Mart, buy a tent. Hitchhike to montana with 5K in your pocket. Camp out at the airport and pay 55/hr for the 1966 Cessna 150 and 30/hr for the CFI. You'll leave with change in your pocket and a PPL. I've looked around the country, this is as cheap as it gets. The CFI is also a 30 year veteran CFI with no need to build time, he just likes to instruct and owns the planes, hangars and is the A&P/IA for the operation.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the help everyone! I really appreciate it! I am so new to all this flying talk, that all this information was a real eye opener. I now have a better understanding of what it takes to get a license, and what I should look into. I think my best bet is just biting the bullet and doing it the normal way, as owning an airplane doesn't seem to fit in the near future.

I think I will save up roughly 10,000 dollars, and just go all out with no breaks and get it. See anything wrong with this plan? I really appreciate your guys input. I take it as gold and like to learn from people who have been there.
 
Another thing, is the future bright for private pilot licenses? Or should I try go get it done soon just in case something happens and the government gets a little anxious about things?

Also, What are your flying club rates? How much do you put down for a deposit? How much per month? How much per hour wet for the airplanes? I want to compare it to the closest club to my house.
 
Find your local club and dive in while you can. Things will not be getting any cheaper in the future. Our club fell apart and now we have nothing.
 
For what it's worth, I recently went to a seminar put on by an instructor from MasterFlight that intimated that a PPL costs between 15K and 25K, all costs included, for instruction in a Technically Advanced Aircraft, based on coming in and doing the knowledge exam ASAP. So make sure you have plenty of dough stashed away. Hopefully, you won't need it!
 
Dang... Thats crazy.. What are you guys opinions of becoming a Light Sport Pilot instead of private? Is it worth it? Plus its half the training, and I can get familiar with an airplane with less cost
 
Sport Pilot is certainly a viable alternative, depending on what you want to do with your license.
 
Eventually I want to get into twin engines as I get older and fly my family around.
But as a 20 year old I would be satisfied with a Light sport
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
Eventually I want to get into twin engines as I get older and fly my family around.
But as a 20 year old I would be satisfied with a Light sport
Click to expand...

Sport Pilot is definitely a reasonable way to start, then. Make sure you get your training from a CFI with more than just a Sport Pilot Instructor certification, or, according to the FAA's current interpretation of the rules, that training won't count toward later certificates. Make sure that the instructor knows to log it appropriately.
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
I think I will save up roughly 10,000 dollars, and just go all out with no breaks and get it. See anything wrong with this plan?
Click to expand...
No. And if you have to save up to have $10K to pay for your training, buying a decent airplane just to learn in is out of the financial question.
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
Another thing, is the future bright for private pilot licenses? Or should I try go get it done soon just in case something happens and the government gets a little anxious about things?
Click to expand...
The government is not going to put an end to private flying unless something totally unforeseeable happens, and in that case, we'll probably be facing much bigger problems.
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
Dang... Thats crazy.. What are you guys opinions of becoming a Light Sport Pilot instead of private? Is it worth it? Plus its half the training, and I can get familiar with an airplane with less cost
Click to expand...
Don't bet on it really being half the training, no matter what the regulations or some flight school's promotional material says. As for whether or not it's "worth it," that depends on what you want to do with your license. If Light Sport flying (max two seats, single engine only, simple aircraft, max speeds, limited weather, etc) will meet your needs for the foreseeable future, then go for Sport Pilot. If you have plans beyond that (instrument rating, more seats, more speed, retractable gear, multiengine, etc), then do the Private course now.
 
My ultimate goal for when I'm about mid life Is to have my instrument rating at the least. When I'm close to retiring I am thinking of being a CFI, but I will decide that when the time comes. So getting my ppl instead of lsl instead is best?
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
My ultimate goal for when I'm about mid life Is to have my instrument rating at the least. When I'm close to retiring I am thinking of being a CFI, but I will decide that when the time comes. So getting my ppl instead of lsl instead is best?
Click to expand...

In order to meet those goals you will need a PPL. As I pointed out above, though, you can get a Sport Pilot first and use that training to help meet the Private Pilot minimums. It would at least theoretically allow you to get some use out of the certificate earlier.
 
For purpose of discussion, let's recast the total cost question as follows assuming a person starts flying tomorrow with the intent of eventually owning an airplane that would be suitable for PPL training as well as personal use thereafter. Further assume that many such airplanes are currently available in the used market, and will foreseeably be available in the future.

Would that person's total combined cost for training and aircraft purchase be greater if he/she bought the identical airplane now or 2 years from now? 5 years from now?

IOW, when all costs of ownership, including financing and/or opportunity costs, storage, scheduled and unscheduled maintenance, insurance, taxes, subscriptions, etc. are factored into the equation, as well as any future change in the projected purchase price of the airplane, which method will result in the lowest net cost?

If you want to include rental vs. ownership costs for usage of the plane after the pilot completes PPL training, please note the basis for those assumptions.
 
Last edited:
Do you guys see the price of aviation fuel going down anytime in the near future? Do they have airplanes that can run on normal car gas or possibly diesel? I don't see why not?
 
gprellwitz said:
For what it's worth, I recently went to a seminar put on by an instructor from MasterFlight that intimated that a PPL costs between 15K and 25K, all costs included, for instruction in a Technically Advanced Aircraft, based on coming in and doing the knowledge exam ASAP. So make sure you have plenty of dough stashed away. Hopefully, you won't need it!
Click to expand...

And I have to argue with those numbers. Of course you've quoted for a TAA (Cirrus or something with a G1000). Sure. Around the Denver area those are renting for $200-225/hr. So yes, you'll spend $$$$$.

But why? The fundamentals are the same whether a Cirrus or a C172/152. And the C172/152 is a WHOLE lot cheaper!

Let's look at the lastest "claim" on AOPA website (which was mentioned in another thread here) at 72 hrs as the average. Assume rental of a C172 is $125/hr

72 hours * 125 = $9000
CFI @ $35/hr for 40 hrs = $1400
Checkride $300
Written $150
Books & such $100
Another 10 hours with the CFI for ground = $350

Total $11,300

Use the cheaper C152 = probably lower the cost about $1800-2000.

The OP doesn't mention where in California, but depending on location, the price of rentals varies a HUGE amount.
 
Thanks for those figures! I have two airports equal distance from my house. I live between LA and Palm Springs, but closer to palm springs. Both airport locations cost 125 per hour and fly Cessna 172
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
Do you guys see the price of aviation fuel going down anytime in the near future? Do they have airplanes that can run on normal car gas or possibly diesel? I don't see why not?
Click to expand...

I think you should just get your Private. You mentioned saving up $10k--that is a good goal. I think once you have $5k saved up, you should just start training and keep putting away money to continue while spending down your $5k reserve. If possible, you should figure out a way to fly every day, or atleast 2+ times a week early on before you solo.

Avgas is going to mirror the price swings of car gas. The general trend for the past 15 years has been up...

It was basically a buck a gallon cheaper back in 2010 than it is now. KSGS just raised their price from $4.82 to $5.19 for self service 100LL. :( For a short, glorious time in late 2008, early 2009, 100LL was under $3 a gallon. That's about as far back as I go in aviation, so I wasn't around when it was cheaper.

And personally, if I was buying an airplane, I wouldn't buy anything that wasn't STC'ed for car gas.
 
I just looked up my closest airports and they are 5.89! Good heck thats expensive. What is the difference from AV gas and Jetfuel?
 
wabower said:
For purpose of discussion, let's recast the total cost question as follows assuming a person starts flying tomorrow with the intent of eventually owning an airplane that would be suitable for PPL training as well as personal use thereafter. Further assume that many such airplanes are currently available in the used market, and will foreseeably be available in the future.

Would that person's total combined cost for training and aircraft purchase be greater if he/she bought the identical airplane now or 2 years from now? 5 years from now?

IOW, when all costs of ownership, including financing and/or opportunity costs, storage, scheduled and unscheduled maintenance, insurance, taxes, subscriptions, etc. are factored into the equation, as well as any future change in the projected purchase price of the airplane, which method will result in the lowest net cost?

If you want to include rental vs. ownership costs for usage of the plane after the pilot completes PPL training, please note the basis for those assumptions.
Click to expand...
IF the person completes the training and keeps and flies the plane for several years thereafter, buying now is definitely more cost effective than renting now and buying later. If not, the cost is higher. In that regard, it's a roll of the dice, but given the drop-out rates discussed in the flight training community, my gut feel is that the purchase should be delayed at least until after solo, which is the point at which the drop-out rate seems to peak.

The other factor is the size and complexity of the desired airplane. If you're headed for a twin ASAP, that's probably not the plane in which you want to do your initial PP training, and renting now and buying later makes more sense. If something in the simple 4-seat class (e.g., Cessna 172/177, Piper PA28-series, Beech 19/23, or Grumman AA-5-series) is your goal for the foreseeable future, then buying that now and doing your training in it makes a lot of sense.

Of course, the biggest problem with buying a plane early is that the buyer doesn't know jack about buying and owning a plane, and that can lead to serious and expensive problems. Someone in that position would be well-advised to find an experienced pilot/owner they can trust to be their mentor through that process.
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
I just looked up my closest airports and they are 5.89! Good heck thats expensive. What is the difference from AV gas and Jetfuel?
Click to expand...
Jet fuel is a wide-cut kerosene product that only works in turbine and diesel* aircraft engines. AvGas is a more refined product that works properly in piston engines, and can work in an emergency (if you reset the fuel controls) in turbine engines.

*The only light aircraft that comes from the factory with a diesel engine (well, actually, two diesel engines) is the Diamond DA-42 TwinStar. There are retrofit diesels available for some light singles, but they are very expensive to purchase and install, and you'd have to pump a lot of jet fuel through them to make the conversion worth whilen, and I've not seen many of them out there.
 
No fuel control reset is necessary for P&W turbines, the only limitation is a max use (hrs) between fuel control overhauls. Dunno about Garretts.

Ron Levy said:
Jet fuel is a wide-cut kerosene product that only works in turbine and diesel* aircraft engines. AvGas is a more refined product that works properly in piston engines, and can work in an emergency (if you reset the fuel controls) in turbine engines.

*The only light aircraft that comes from the factory with a diesel engine (well, actually, two diesel engines) is the Diamond DA-42 TwinStar. There are retrofit diesels available for some light singles, but they are very expensive to purchase and install, and you'd have to pump a lot of jet fuel through them to make the conversion worth whilen, and I've not seen many of them out there.
Click to expand...
 
Will airplanes cost less in the future? If so, how much less?
Ron Levy said:
IF the person completes the training and keeps and flies the plane for several years thereafter, buying now is definitely more cost effective than renting now and buying later. If not, the cost is higher. In that regard, it's a roll of the dice, but given the drop-out rates discussed in the flight training community, my gut feel is that the purchase should be delayed at least until after solo, which is the point at which the drop-out rate seems to peak.

The other factor is the size and complexity of the desired airplane. If you're headed for a twin ASAP, that's probably not the plane in which you want to do your initial PP training, and renting now and buying later makes more sense. If something in the simple 4-seat class (e.g., Cessna 172/177, Piper PA28-series, Beech 19/23, or Grumman AA-5-series) is your goal for the foreseeable future, then buying that now and doing your training in it makes a lot of sense.

Of course, the biggest problem with buying a plane early is that the buyer doesn't know jack about buying and owning a plane, and that can lead to serious and expensive problems. Someone in that position would be well-advised to find an experienced pilot/owner they can trust to be their mentor through that process.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
No fuel control reset is necessary for P&W turbines, the only limitation is a max use (hrs) between fuel control overhauls. Dunno about Garretts.
Click to expand...
I know two P&W turbines where I know for sure it is necessary (J52 and TF30), but you won't find them on any civilian aircraft. I suspect it depends on how modern the fuel control is.
 
Airplanes will be cheaper in the future? That's good news for me! I recently read that the lower you fly in an airplane, the more fuel you will consume in an hour. First off, is this true? Second off, if this is the case, why don't people buy pressurized airplanes and fly higher to save gas? Or why not train to get your license high up in the sky? Do airplanes have limits?
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
I recently read that the lower you fly in an airplane, the more fuel you will consume in an hour. First off, is this true?
Click to expand...
Depends on the context. At any given power setting, say 75% of max rated power (which is a typical cruise power setting), the engine will burn the same number of gallons per hour regardless of altitude. However, as altitude increases, you go faster at the same power setting.

Second off, if this is the case, why don't people buy pressurized airplanes and fly higher to save gas?
Click to expand...
Because pressurized airplanes weigh more (heavier structures required to handle the internal pressure), which cuts into performance. In addition, they have more and more complicated systems, which cuts into reliability and adds to maintenance cost. All in all, they are more expensive both to buy and maintain.

Or why not train to get your license high up in the sky? Do airplanes have limits?
Click to expand...
Yes, they do -- some physical and some regulatory.
 
Should we have a separate thread for the military pilots?

Ron Levy said:
I know two P&W turbines where I know for sure it is necessary (J52 and TF30), but you won't find them on any civilian aircraft. I suspect it depends on how modern the fuel control is.
Click to expand...
 
Do you believe the projections that predict the number of licensed pilots will drop (due to attrition) by ~50% by ~2025?

Ron Levy said:
I wish I knew -- I could make a lot of money.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top