"Owner assisted" annual

brien23

brien23

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Brien
What should a Cessna 172 Owner Assisted Annual cost for the inspection only. I have been charging $200. for a Owner Assisted Annual for years and would like to know what others are charging for the inspection only.
 
It sorta depends on how you value your time. I have difficulty imagining you can do the IA-required stuff for a C-172 annual inspection in less than one day, and $200 seems a low-end price for your time and the use of your resources like maintenance facilities, tools, AD check system, etc.
 
Ron Levy said:
It sorta depends on how you value your time. I have difficulty imagining you can do the IA-required stuff for a C-172 annual inspection in less than one day, and $200 seems a low-end price for your time and the use of your resources like maintenance facilities, tools, AD check system, etc.
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Unless they come to your hangar, use a lot of your tools (or just have their own in a bag for whatever they need during an annual inspection), and have you open up everything, and you change the oil, etc.

Just saying....:D
 
Depends on how the owner assists, yes? How many hours of your time is spent working on the plane?
 
Ron Levy said:
It sorta depends on how you value your time. I have difficulty imagining you can do the IA-required stuff for a C-172 annual inspection in less than one day, and $200 seems a low-end price for your time and the use of your resources like maintenance facilities, tools, AD check system, etc.
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You are right I can't do it in a day the Annual usually takes about a week and sometimes goes into three or four.
 
brien23 said:
You are right I can't do it in a day the Annual usually takes about a week and sometimes goes into three or four.
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Just as I can't imagine the IA's part of an annual inspection on a C-172 taking less than 8 hours, I also can't imagine it taking more than a week for the inspection itself. I can certainly imagine it taking a week (or three, or four) to fix all the stuff found during the inspection, but I should think the actual inspection of a C-172 (including the paperwork) would entail about two days of an IA's time.

Now, if you get paid for three weeks of work repairing all this stuff, maybe you can afford to charge only $200 for the actual inspection as a "loss leader" just to get the customer's plane into the shop (as long as you make clear up front that the price is for the inspection itself, and not repair work or consumables like oil and filters). However, if (unlikely as it seems) you find only two days of things to fix, though, you find yourself getting two days' pay for four days' work -- a risk you might find acceptable, given how much stuff is usually found on the "average" annual inspection.

So at the end of the day, my feeling as the holder of a master's in aviation management is that your best bet is to go over the last couple of years' data on how long inspections themselves took, how much shop time for repair work the inspections generated, and see what makes good business sense to charge for the inspection itself given the value you place on your own time plus your shop overhead.
 
My last annual (2006) on my 172 was an owner assisted. I pulled all the inspection plates, cowling, interior panels and carpet. I did the oil change and after the inspection was down, put it all back together. It took the IA three days to do his part and only had to repair two small items. I paid $450.00 and thought that was a very good price. And yes, this was done in my hangar.
 
Dean said:
My last annual (2006) on my 172 was an owner assisted. I pulled all the inspection plates, cowling, interior panels and carpet. I did the oil change and after the inspection was down, put it all back together. It took the IA three days to do his part and only had to repair two small items. I paid $450.00 and thought that was a very good price. And yes, this was done in my hangar.
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I would have to agree that $150 a day for an IA is a very good price -- for the customer. Can't say I think it's a good price for the IA.
 
The IA that I work for charges $250.00 for a 172 inspection. Owner assisted takes 1 day usually. Alone takes 2. I might add that he does not make much money. I tell him he does not charge enough. Most of the customers bring in their own parts. I tell him he should charge extra labor when they do that. He charges only $50.00 per hr. He should charge min $75.00, $80 if they bring in parts. We travel to other airports and still get only $250.00 - $300.00. All of Jan and Feb are open if you need an annual in upper MN and WI.

Dan
 
As one who holds an A&P/IA and performs annual inspections in accordance with the privileges and limitations under part 65. I have to ask what do you really mean owner assisted annual inspection?

If what you mean is the A&P/IA inspects the aircraft and finds things that need fixed and you fix them and record what you did in the aircraft records that’s a good thing. Remember pilots can perform preventive maintenance only. However as a word of caution if you are inspecting the aircraft instead of the IA mechanic that is contrary to the rules and could get your mechanic in a world of stuff.

Keep in mind if the mechanic opens an inspection panel, removes seats, etc it is considered maintenance and they are required to perform a record entry for the work performed. If you as a pilot remove the same items you should record it in the aircraft records what you removed and installed in accordance with part 43.9(d).

Having said all the above I have had owners assist me in the past removing inspection plates, carpet, cowling, seats and headliners. I would then come in and using my own checklist inspect the aircraft. I would list items that need fixed and the owner would fix them under direct supervision. I would then sign off the aircraft records indicating what the owner did like change oil and filter, clean spark plugs and gap and so on. After all the maintenance items were completed and recorded in the records I would then sign off the annual inspection as being completed and approved for return to service.

As an IA would charge a fix hourly rate, which included record reviews, AD searches, service bulletins searches and life limited parts searches. The bulk of the time was spent performing searches looking up part numbers to insure what was installed on the aircraft. Even with the help of the owner many annuals took at least two to five days to complete depending on how well the owner kept the equipment list current.

Here where I am at shop rate is around $68.00 per hours and just for two days the rate would be $1088.00. I could not pay the insurance, calibration of tools, shop rental, computer software updates on a flat rate of $200.

Sometimes the cheap annual will cost you a lot more when a real inspection is accomplished. Just one man’s opinion.
 
If you are doing the same annuals each year you should not have to look up much of the paperwork. Most pilots will fly 50 hrs. install nothing, and repair nothing during the year so paperwork (If you did the annual last year or for many years) is not that big of a deal. The owners that assist here do so in our shop while we work on other planes. They remove everything, do preventive maint items then the IA does the inspection. While the owner reinstalls everything he is doing paperwork. And you are right because he does not get as much he cannot pay the higher cost of hanger/shop rent. MN en-acted a very high insurance requirement that is putting a lot of A&P AI's out of business. They just cannot afford the insurance. If they raise their price the owners will just not do annuals. MN is now looking at going back to the old rate. Understand that hanger rent around here is $100.00 a month not $1000.00 like it is out there. So that makes a difference also. You know it's tight when the owner brings his own oil in to save $8.00.

As I'm writing this I'm wondering why it was again that I am working so hard to become an A&P:eek:.

Dan
 
I have an annual that I started in Aug, I'm wondering if I should charge the owner storage space for his logs.

I have the 170 owner that was due for annual in July but didn't show up, when the weather was warm, now wants me to drive to Shelton (with the Ferry out of service) and do the annual in his hangar next Saturday, so he won't have to get a ferry permit. I think I'll return his call in june.

I have a 172 owner that said he ready for my final look to sign it off but the owner says he wants to wait until 2 Jan 08 to sign it off. I stopped by the hangar it isn't buttoned up yet. tail wheel assembly is still laying on the bench. Yep he'll drag it out to 2 Jan OK.

Owner assisted annuals take me about 8 hours to do the IA stuff, on a 172, that is, IF the owner does what they are told to do.
1. Wash the aircraft, Open these pannels marked with the "X"
2 Remove the seats, clean the tracks and rollers.
3 Remove the spark plugs and clean them. Do not replace them until I look at them.
4 Open the muffler shrouds.
5. Remove the wheels, brakes, and bearings have them clean and make ready to grease.
6. Have all the required paper work for the aircraft ready to inspect.
7. Change the oil. and give me the filter. or the screens to inspect.
8. lubricate all shieves, cables, hinges, and items on the 100 Service manual list up to the 100 hours cycle.
When you have all that done call me

I will then inspect all the items on my check list and give you the discrepancy list and discuss what you can do, and what you should have me complete.

9 repair discrepancies.
10 close up the aircraft.
11 both of us take the aircraft out for afte rannual engine run.
I get the numbers i want and place the sticky in your log as per what we did.

I charge $350 for the inspection, and $50 for labor which includes driving time if you are not at OKH.

How long does ti take, that is up to the owner.

I have been known to do a 3 cherokee weekend, 3 aircraft 3 owners in on friday night and out sunday afternoon.
 
NC19143 said:
I have an annual that I started in Aug, I'm wondering if I should charge the owner storage space for his logs.

I have the 170 owner that was due for annual in July but didn't show up, when the weather was warm, now wants me to drive to Shelton (with the Ferry out of service) and do the annual in his hangar next Saturday, so he won't have to get a ferry permit. I think I'll return his call in june.

I have a 172 owner that said he ready for my final look to sign it off but the owner says he wants to wait until 2 Jan 08 to sign it off. I stopped by the hangar it isn't buttoned up yet. tail wheel assembly is still laying on the bench. Yep he'll drag it out to 2 Jan OK.

Owner assisted annuals take me about 8 hours to do the IA stuff, on a 172, that is, IF the owner does what they are told to do.
1. Wash the aircraft, Open these pannels marked with the "X"
2 Remove the seats, clean the tracks and rollers.
3 Remove the spark plugs and clean them. Do not replace them until I look at them.
4 Open the muffler shrouds.
5. Remove the wheels, brakes, and bearings have them clean and make ready to grease.
6. Have all the required paper work for the aircraft ready to inspect.
7. Change the oil. and give me the filter. or the screens to inspect.
8. lubricate all shieves, cables, hinges, and items on the 100 Service manual list up to the 100 hours cycle.
When you have all that done call me

I will then inspect all the items on my check list and give you the discrepancy list and discuss what you can do, and what you should have me complete.

9 repair discrepancies.
10 close up the aircraft.
11 both of us take the aircraft out for afte rannual engine run.
I get the numbers i want and place the sticky in your log as per what we did.

I charge $350 for the inspection, and $50 for labor which includes driving time if you are not at OKH.

How long does ti take, that is up to the owner.

I have been known to do a 3 cherokee weekend, 3 aircraft 3 owners in on friday night and out sunday afternoon.
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Sounds VERY reasonable...and is the way my A&P/IA does it as well.

He even laughed and said I opened up the airplane better than many of young mechanics he knows!
 
NC19143 said:
Owner assisted annuals take me about 8 hours to do the IA stuff, on a 172, that is, IF the owner does what they are told to do.

...

I charge $350 for the inspection, and $50 for labor which includes driving time if you are not at OKH.

How long does ti take, that is up to the owner.

I have been known to do a 3 cherokee weekend, 3 aircraft 3 owners in on friday night and out sunday afternoon.
Click to expand...

This is not totaly related but humor me. I purchased a 172RG this summer and it will be in for it's first annual with my A&P in January. Once this initial inspection is done. How much time are we talking about saving in an owner assisted annual as described?

Is an assisted annual something that is done only in the aircraft owners hanger?
 
stingray said:
If you are doing the same annuals each year you should not have to look up much of the paperwork. Most pilots will fly 50 hrs. install nothing, and repair nothing during the year so paperwork (If you did the annual last year or for many years) is not that big of a deal.
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Does that include the AD review? You have to identify all accessories on the aircraft, run the list against the AD listings, and then confirm they're all done. Yes, it's easier if you have last year's AD list, but it still requires updating, and I should think that is an hour or so by itself. Even the preparation of the bill takes time, including itemizing all work done, any hardware or other parts, etc. This all adds up, and time is money.
 
RMCN172RG said:
This is not totaly related but humor me. I purchased a 172RG this summer and it will be in for it's first annual with my A&P in January. Once this initial inspection is done. How much time are we talking about saving in an owner assisted annual as described?
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This reminds me of a sign I saw in an aircraft maintenance shop:

Mechanic's Rates:
Standard: $50/hour
Owner-Assisted: $100/hour

It is unlikely you'll save any time (as in "shop-in to shop-out") by doing an owner-assisted annual. There probably isn't anything you can do that the mechanic cannot do faster. Further, you'll probably require some instruction on some tasks, which also delays completion. You may save money, as the total number of hours the mechanic puts in may be less (or not, depending on your level of maintenance knowledge and mechnical competence -- it takes longer to teach something than to do it yourself, and it takes longer still for the mechanic to undo and redo anything you do wrong), but you are unlikely to get the airplane turned around faster.

What you really gain is not time or money, but an understanding of your aircraft. You will become far more familiar with its inner workings and internal condition. This pays off in making better maintenance decisions, as well as more effective daily inspections before flight. It also gives you a far greater appreciation of the quality and expertise of your mechanic, and (hopefully) for the value of what you get for what you pay him/her.
 
Ron Levy said:
This reminds me of a sign I saw in an aircraft maintenance shop:

Mechanic's Rates:
Standard: $50/hour
Owner-Assisted: $100/hour

It is unlikely you'll save any time (as in "shop-in to shop-out") by doing an owner-assisted annual. There probably isn't anything you can do that the mechanic cannot do faster. Further, you'll probably require some instruction on some tasks, which also delays completion. You may save money, as the total number of hours the mechanic puts in may be less (or not, depending on your level of maintenance knowledge and mechnical competence -- it takes longer to teach something than to do it yourself, and it takes longer still for the mechanic to undo and redo anything you do wrong), but you are unlikely to get the airplane turned around faster.

What you really gain is not time or money, but an understanding of your aircraft. You will become far more familiar with its inner workings and internal condition. This pays off in making better maintenance decisions, as well as more effective daily inspections before flight. It also gives you a far greater appreciation of the quality and expertise of your mechanic, and (hopefully) for the value of what you get for what you pay him/her.
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Several of my owner assisted annuals are for A&P owners.
 
RMCN172RG said:
This is not totaly related but humor me. I purchased a 172RG this summer and it will be in for it's first annual with my A&P in January. Once this initial inspection is done. How much time are we talking about saving in an owner assisted annual as described?

Is an assisted annual something that is done only in the aircraft owners hanger?
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First things first,, the owner must understand what an annual inspection is.

A&P-IAs can't delegate any portion of the inspection to the owner. The owner can only do what the A&P-IA allows, thus every inspector is going to be different.

secondly the inspection is not a repair period. it is the "look/inspect" portion of the requirement called the "annual"

Any discrepancies found during that inspection can be repaired by any one, providing they comply with FAR 43.7

There are no rules where the inspection must take place, your hangar, my hangar, out in the field, it doesn't matter per the rules, just don't call me on cold days, unless you have a nice warm hangar.

Time saved,, little if any, money saved during the repair portion of the yearly maintenance period? Probably a bunch if you have an A&P who will allow "under the supervision of" style of maintenance.

Your A&P can have you make the aircraft ready for the IA to inspect, then the IA can give you a list of discrepancies and Your A&P can allow you to repair and close up the aircraft and your A&P can return to service.

I like that method, it takes me off the hook for almost every thing.
 
Ron Levy said:
Does that include the AD review? You have to identify all accessories on the aircraft, run the list against the AD listings, and then confirm they're all done. Yes, it's easier if you have last year's AD list, but it still requires updating, and I should think that is an hour or so by itself. Even the preparation of the bill takes time, including itemizing all work done, any hardware or other parts, etc. This all adds up, and time is money.
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If the IA is keeping the records the FSDO wants us to keep, the inspector will have a compeleted inventory of your aircraft from year to year and it is very easy to tell if you have changed anything. With this inventory list they can tell what re-occuring ADs will be due.

If your A&P is making the proper entries of re-occuring ADs the log its self will be a quick refference also. The "ADlog" program is a great assistance with this also.

No matter what program or assistance you get, the IA is still responsible for the Airworthiness of the aircraft. (ADs included of course)
 
Hubby takes off a week every year to help with his owner-assisted annual for 6 years now. The first few times he only opened and closed the inspection plates, washed the plane, changed the oil, and removed the seats. With his help, it took longer than an annual usually takes, but he got a chance to see and learn. Also, he was onhand to discuss and make the decisions on what optional work would be done. We paid for all the hours the plane was worked on because that's fair. Now, hubby does even more of the work under the supervision of the IA and we get the plane back faster than when the mechanic's helper does the work. Hubby is careful, and grateful for the chance to learn more about our plane. Now he points out additional work that he wants to do or wants done. We still pay for about 2 days of mechanic's time and the cost of having the plane in his hangar. The IA supervises, inspects, updates the logs, and signs everything off.

I really don't think you should start off expecting an owner-assisted annual to be cheaper. It only gets to be that way after you stop being underfoot.
 
For all the owners out they that want to save money on the annual inspection there are some things you can to do.

1. Inventory your aircraft equipment list and check every item on it to what is installed in the aircraft. If an item has been changed you can up-date the equipment list with the new part numbers. Such as radios, engine, propeller, instruments part number and etc. This is time consuming for the mechanic to perform, beside your weight and balance comes from the equipment list.

2. Look up all your AD’s and list them by date where they are in the aircraft records or AD compliance list where they are found. I would suggest you make (4) separate lists. Airframe, Engine, Propeller(s), Accessories (Note the accessories list is always the hardest to and where most AD’s are missed)

3. Make a 3-ring binder separating sections such as:
    • Weight and balance
    • AD’s with four sections
    • FAA Form 337
    • Service bulletins
    • Airframe record
    • Engine records
    • Propeller records
    • Avionics

4. Mechanics are required to inspect the records then inspect the aircraft to insure all of the above are complied with. Remember the owner/operator is required to make sure the mechanic make the proper record entries after each inspection or maintenance item in accordance with FAR 43.9. Owners you may want to re-read FAR 91.405 this places the responsibility on you to make sure the mechanic makes the proper entries in your aircraft records.

Us mechanics spend a lot of time trying to make sense of aircraft records and if we cannot read them we will have to go look and make sure something is complies with again costing you money.

There are two types of aircraft records temporary and permanent, which the regulations require the owner to keep for the three major components of every aircraft. These include airframe, each engine, and propeller or rotor.

Temporary Records


  • These consist of a record of all minor maintenance and minor alterations performed on the aircraft by mechanics in accordance with CFR 91 Subpart E.
  • A record of the required inspection performed on the aircraft; whether it is a 100-hour, annual, a progressive inspection, or any other required or approved inspection.

Minor maintenance and alterations records may be discarded when the work is repeated or superseded by other work. The record of routine inspections my also be discarded when the next inspection is completed. However it is good to retain the records indefinite as it show continuity in the maintenance program.

Permanent Record


Permanent records will include the following:

  • Total time in service of the airframe, engine, and propeller.
  • The current status of the life limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.
  • Time since last the overhaul of item on the aircraft, which are required to be overhauled on a scheduled time basic.
  • The current inspection status of the aircraft.
  • The current status of applicable Airworthiness Directives (AD’s) and method of compliance.
  • A list of the current major alterations to each airframe, engine, propeller, or rotor.
  • Current operating limitations, including revisions to the aircraft weight and center of gravity, caused by the installation or removal of equipment or alterations.

The above take time and time is money. Beside it will make your mechanics job much easier.

Its Christmas what have your done for your mechanic this year?
 
Stache said:
[The above take time and time is money. Beside it will make your mechanics job much
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Do you really think any A&P-IA worth their salt, would trust their ticket to the owners AD search, or inventory of equipment installed?

I've met owners that can't tell a generator from an alternator, or a bendix mag from a slick. On top of that the method the FAA uses to write ADs is often misunderstood by everone but the manufacturers lawyer.

Nope, I am resopnsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft ao I'll do my job, but If you'll bust the owner for me missing the AD because the owner did the AD search, I'd be happy with that.
 
Here is a thought, If you can afford a $100,000 aircraft, why can't you afford a $10,000 annual? Which includes the repairs of stuff you wore out during the year?
 
Well, the biggest problem with an AD search is figuring out if an AD is applicable your airframe, engine, or appliance. A lot of that comes from experience in reading and interpreting them. After a while you learn to speak the language.
 
Nope, I am resopnsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft ao I'll do my job, but If you'll bust the owner for me missing the AD because the owner did the AD search, I'd be happy with that.[/quote]

The only one primary responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft is the owner/operator per FAR 91.403(a). However we as A&P/IA’s have a dual role when it comes to inspections such as the annual to determine airworthiness AD's included.

I am a firm Ronald Regan believer “trust and verify”. The owner should be aware of any AD that is released for their aircraft, but most leave all the airworthiness up the to A&P’s. It’s nice to know pilots trust us mechanic’s with their lives.

If the owners were to read part 91 Subpart E—Maintenance, Preventive Maintenance, and Alterations they may be shocked to find out what their responsibility really is. Pilots are the ones to determine a aircraft is safe for flight and determine airworthiness before flight, so how do they do that?

Most would say by doing the preflight inspection in accordance with 91.103, but it’s more than just planning a flight its checking the aircraft records for current items like AD’s. If you read block 5 on the aircraft airworthiness certificate it would say the aircraft has to meet to conditions to be airworthy;
  • Safe for flight (within the wear limits)
  • Meet the type certificate or properly altered condition (FAA form 337’s)

Safe for flight would be all those AD’s that have to be current. And to CYA a pilot have a AD compliance checklist prepared by the A&P/IA dated, signed, name, certificate number. AD number, method of compliance would make it real easy for a pilot to know. This way they would not have to look in each logbook and try to find out at the preflight if all the AD’s are complied with.

AD’s are not hard to understand if they apply or not. Just read the applicability statement it will tell you. If it doesn’t apply have the mechanic sign it off as why it doesn’t apply such as; serial number, part number, etc., but none the less sign it off. If it does apply method of how it was complied with and proper sign off by the mechanic.

Just one man's opinion.
 
Stache said:
AD’s are not hard to understand if they apply or not. Just read the applicability statement it will tell you. If it doesn’t apply have the mechanic sign it off as why it doesn’t apply such as; serial number, part number, etc., but none the less sign it off. If it does apply method of how it was complied with and proper sign off by the mechanic.

Just one man's opinion.
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Well, I guess that is true to some extent, but if you are trying to figure out if the serial number of the crankshaft that was used at the last overhaul is included in 06-06-16, or if you have to determine if ECi jugs were installed on your IO-360 at some time or another and if they fall under 06-12-07, you have to dig a little deeper. To someone like yourself, who has extensive experience dealing with ADs, it isn't that big of a problem to plow through the SB, but I'm just saying that if an aircraft owner doesn't deal with ADs on a regular basis like you do, those are two are examples of ones that might be a little difficult for them to navigate.

Just another man's opinion.
 
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Stache said:
For all the owners out they that want to save money on the annual inspection there are some things you can to do.

1. Inventory your aircraft equipment list and check every item on it to what is installed in the aircraft. If an item has been changed you can up-date the equipment list with the new part numbers. Such as radios, engine, propeller, instruments part number and etc. This is time consuming for the mechanic to perform, beside your weight and balance comes from the equipment list.

2. Look up all your AD’s and list them by date where they are in the aircraft records or AD compliance list where they are found. I would suggest you make (4) separate lists. Airframe, Engine, Propeller(s), Accessories (Note the accessories list is always the hardest to and where most AD’s are missed)

3. Make a 3-ring binder separating sections such as:
    • Weight and balance
    • AD’s with four sections
    • FAA Form 337
    • Service bulletins
    • Airframe record
    • Engine records
    • Propeller records
    • Avionics
4. Mechanics are required to inspect the records then inspect the aircraft to insure all of the above are complied with. Remember the owner/operator is required to make sure the mechanic make the proper record entries after each inspection or maintenance item in accordance with FAR 43.9. Owners you may want to re-read FAR 91.405 this places the responsibility on you to make sure the mechanic makes the proper entries in your aircraft records.

Us mechanics spend a lot of time trying to make sense of aircraft records and if we cannot read them we will have to go look and make sure something is complies with again costing you money.

There are two types of aircraft records temporary and permanent, which the regulations require the owner to keep for the three major components of every aircraft. These include airframe, each engine, and propeller or rotor.

Temporary Records

  • These consist of a record of all minor maintenance and minor alterations performed on the aircraft by mechanics in accordance with CFR 91 Subpart E.
  • A record of the required inspection performed on the aircraft; whether it is a 100-hour, annual, a progressive inspection, or any other required or approved inspection.
Minor maintenance and alterations records may be discarded when the work is repeated or superseded by other work. The record of routine inspections my also be discarded when the next inspection is completed. However it is good to retain the records indefinite as it show continuity in the maintenance program.

Permanent Record


Permanent records will include the following:
  • Total time in service of the airframe, engine, and propeller.
  • The current status of the life limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.
  • Time since last the overhaul of item on the aircraft, which are required to be overhauled on a scheduled time basic.
  • The current inspection status of the aircraft.
  • The current status of applicable Airworthiness Directives (AD’s) and method of compliance.
  • A list of the current major alterations to each airframe, engine, propeller, or rotor.
  • Current operating limitations, including revisions to the aircraft weight and center of gravity, caused by the installation or removal of equipment or alterations.
The above take time and time is money. Beside it will make your mechanics job much easier.

Its Christmas what have your done for your mechanic this year?
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EXCELLENT advice! I had done the three-ring binder before the last annual and my mechanic was amazed! He was thoroughly impressed, and though he did double check my AD's, he said it saved a LOT of time.
 
Stache said:
The only one primary responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft is the owner/operator per FAR 91.403(a). However we as A&P/IA’s have a dual role when it comes to inspections such as the annual to determine airworthiness AD's included.
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So much for the FAA reccommended verbage of the annual signoff.

FAR 43.11
“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.”
 
NC19143 said:
So much for the FAA reccommended verbage of the annual signoff.

FAR 43.11
“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.”
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:rofl: :dunno: I remember when the FAA didn't have an Airworthy definition.
 
jwriteclub said:
Ah, the joys of renting.

~ Christopher
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Yeah, and just how do you ensure that the aircraft is airworthy?

As a renter, I admit that I usually ascertain airworthiness by faith in the FBO that I'm renting from. I've reviewed the logs on a number of the planes before checkrides, and haven't found problems. Am I at risk? Yeah, but I don't see a reasonable alternative. Aircraft logbooks are locked up in maintenance on the weekends, and there's no way I have time to review the books before each flight. I must trust that the FBO, as the "other" operator of the plane, is on the ball.

How do others handle this?

§ 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition. (b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur

-- but --
§ 91.403 General

(a) The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, including compliance with part 39 of this chapter.

 
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gprellwitz said:
Yeah, and just how do you ensure that the aircraft is airworthy?

As a renter, I admit that I usually ascertain airworthiness by faith in the FBO that I'm renting from. I've reviewed the logs on a number of the planes before checkrides, and haven't found problems. Am I at risk? Yeah, but I don't see a reasonable alternative. Aircraft logbooks are locked up in maintenance on the weekends, and there's no way I have time to review the books before each flight. I must trust that the FBO, as the "other" operator of the plane, is on the ball.

How do others handle this?

§ 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition. (b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur

-- but --
§ 91.403 General

(a) The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, including compliance with part 39 of this chapter.
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Ther renter is not an owner or operator.

but as pilot, they have a the resopnsibility of PIC as per 91.7 that rule says "safe for flight" and if an aircraft is not safe for flight it is not airworthy. see (a) of the rule.
 
Generally I interpret this to mean that, for instance, taking off with only 1 qt of oil is on the pilot, but, failing to comply with an AD is on the Rental Agency.

In addition, usually the places I rent from I get to know them well enough that I am comfortable with the situation, although I did once stop renting from someone over some concerns I had with the maintenance.

~ Christopher
 
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jwriteclub said:
Generally I interpret this to mean that, for instance, taking off with only 1 qt of oil is on the pilot, but, failing to comply with an AD is on the Rental Agency.

In addition, usually the places I rent from I get to know them well enough that I am comfortable with the situation, although I did once stop renting from someone over some concerns I had with the maintenance.

~ Christopher
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In the eyes of the FAA they use the phrase “could of known or should of known” when it comes to airworthiness. Remember the airworthiness statement is on the Airworthiness Certificate in the aircraft block 5.

Even if you rent an aircraft from a FBO it would be wise to request to see the aircraft maintenance records (could of know). If the FBO does not want to give you access to the aircraft records I would go to some other FBO.

As an example if an FBO rents you an aircraft and represents it as in an airworthy condition and lets say an AD is not complied with. Both the owner/operator (FBO) and the pilot would be at fault (could of know) if you did not inspect the maintenance records.

Remember only applicable AD are required to be kept. So the question is how would a renter known when the AD’s are complied with. The only way is a proper preflight that would include an inspection of the applicable AD. This is a case of CYA and if a renter uses the excuse of I didn’t know will not hold up in a court case.

Just one man's opinion.
 
tdager said:
EXCELLENT advice! I had done the three-ring binder before the last annual and my mechanic was amazed! He was thoroughly impressed, and though he did double check my AD's, he said it saved a LOT of time.
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I am very lucky when it comes to my A&P/IA. When I bought my 172 I got all the log books and AD's and stuff in a big envelope. He took all of them and put them in order in a nice zipper type binder with the N number on it. He must have spent several hours just doing that alone. He is worth his weight in gold, but he can be a bit moody at times.:D
 
Dean said:
I am very lucky when it comes to my A&P/IA. When I bought my 172 I got all the log books and AD's and stuff in a big envelope. He took all of them and put them in order in a nice zipper type binder with the N number on it. He must have spent several hours just doing that alone. He is worth his weight in gold, but he can be a bit moody at times.:D
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When you bought the 172 you became the owner, the operator, and the pilot, with responsibility for complying with FAR 21, 23, 43, and 91.

Is it realistic to think the Renter pilot should get a violation for an AD that ran over the time limit while the aircraft was in custody of the rental agency?

Or is it realistic to to hold the owner responsible for maintenance related items when the aircraft is on lease back to a rental agency?

IMHO the FAA needs to clarify the FARs as to who is the "OPERATOR" in these circumstances.

Your mech is probably grumpy because he just got off the phone with FSDO.
 
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NC19143 said:
Is it realistic to think the Renter pilot should get a violation for an AD that ran over the time limit while the aircraft was in custody of the rental agency?
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If the renter was flying it when it went over the limit, yes. See Stache's post, above, and remember that he is an FAA Airworthiness Inspector. The Regional Counsel can certainly overrule an Inspector's take on something like this, but usually the Inspectors know what the RC's think when they write you up.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the renter was flying it when it went over the limit, yes. See Stache's post, above, and remember that he is an FAA Airworthiness Inspector.


And remember he has been wrong many times before

The Regional Counsel can certainly overrule an Inspector's take on something like this, but usually the Inspectors know what the RC's think when they write you up.
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In your last statement you hit the nail on the head as to why there are no examples of renters being held responsible for maintenance related items.
 
NC19143 said:
In your last statement you hit the nail on the head as to why there are no examples of renters being held responsible for maintenance related items.
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I didn't say that there were no examples, just that there were none appealed to the NTSB. There may well be plenty of examples where the pilot didn't try appealing -- we just can't find out from the Internet.
 
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