overtaking slow planes in the pattern

[OrangeOkie]

So now what would you do in the pattern?

Based on the OP's question, I'm giving the Velocity pilot the benefit of the doubt that he made a sound judgment call to safely pass on the right. That does not make him a "jerk." Here's why . . . My personal opinion on pattern etiquette depends on what is the mission of the two conflicting air crews/airplanes. Here's a for instance . . . say you are the pilot of the Velocity and you want to get three quick touch and go's, and the pilot of the J3 is a student who is working on his landings but is flying long and slow patterns just to feel comfortable for him, (or is under instruction from a CFI in the back seat, who needs the extra time to explain the strategy of the landing check points, etc) . . . that Cub extends his upwind and down wind, and of course is going to be alot slower than the Velocity (or other higher performance aircraft.) If the J3 had just turned left downwind and the velocity is entering from his port quarter (45 degree), then he has to make a judgment call based on his visual observations of the Cub's relative speed. He can turn right and circle 360 and re-enter the downwind, as has already been mentioned, hopefully giving the Cub sufficient time to turn base and final; do a 45/180 over the runway, extending then turning downwind, again to give the Cub time to get out of the way, or pass safely on the right and turn base and final and get out in front of the cub and get your three landings and takeoffs and you're out of there. Any of those choices, assuming they are done safely, are valid alternatives IMO.

 

[comanchepilot]

Hey some jerk in a red Pitts cut me off in the pattern yesterday when I was flying the cub.

I fly patterns inside the wide pattern guys too. But I have the same criteria. Only do that if I can keep them in sight, I make clear radio calls and ensure my pattern will not be any factor for them. One bonus is the cub cockpit affords big time visibility and its easy to keep tabs on everyone in the pattern

the other thing about the Cub is you have lots of time to look too!

and like I tell folks sometimes there is nothing better in the summer than taking the doors off a taildragger and dragging the tail somewhere . . .

 

[Silvaire]

Shouldn't be a problem so long as you're not cutting the other guy off. When the Cub guy gets abeam the numbers he's going to chop the power and land, he shouldn't have to extend because the Velocity guy is now on a 2 mile final.

 

[N801BH]

OrangeOkie............

Loved the pics...

 

[weilke]

Shouldn't be a problem so long as you're not cutting the other guy off. When the Cub guy gets abeam the numbers he's going to chop the power and land, he shouldn't have to extend because the Velocity guy is now on a 2 mile final.

Passing and then exploiting the fact that you are on final first to gain the right of way is what I meant with being a jerk.

 

[jhausch]

This reminds me of George Carlin's old bit about drivers.

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin

 

[danhagan]

If it were me in the faster airplane I'd just fly a bigger pattern to avoid passing the slow one unless the Cub was flying a bomber circuit in which case I'd fly a tighter one and land ahead of the Cub if I could make it work.

We have an instructor that does that at our field, and within minutes EVERYONE is flying a 747 pattern. They also start pulling 360's forcing 5 or 6 in the pattern to 360 as well

It's all about communication. ....if I communicate where I am, that I've got them in sight, will fly a tight base-to-final, and will be NO factor.

We have a few Pitts flyers here. All of them are great about asking if it is ok to pass, announce their positions at all times and generally get in 2-3 TNG's for every one of the 152's. They can usually out speed me in the Tigert pretty well also.

 

[alfadog]

My feeling is that the faster aircraft can do anything prudent to get around the slower and land in front of him provided that the slower does not need make any adjustment to accommodate that. Not sure if that is in the advice on operating at uncontrolled airports. I do something similar all the time with the Luscombe. I enter downwind behind, or inside of, a student pilot, with or without a CFI on board. The student proceeds to fly a bomber pattern. By the time I am at the numbers, they are a mile or more downwind, still tooling along. I go a bit further, slip to my base, slip to final and am back over the numbers just as they turn final two miles back. One guy freaked out and went around although I was no factor for him, others take it in stride.

 

[Shepherd]

I fly at a controlled field, so it's not a problem. When the tower says you are number 2. you adjust your pattern, faster or slower to accomodate the plane in front of you.
The last time someone passed me in the pattern, he got invited to call the tower, and he is currently on suspension awaiting final disposition.
Just because the book says 7 am to 10 pm, doesn't mean someone isn't still up there calling the plays.

 

[alfadog]

I fly at a controlled field, so it's not a problem. When the tower says you are number 2. you adjust your pattern, faster or slower to accomodate the plane in front of you.
The last time someone passed me in the pattern, he got invited to call the tower, and he is currently on suspension awaiting final disposition.
Just because the book says 7 am to 10 pm, doesn't mean someone isn't still up there calling the plays.

Not so long ago the tower had me coming in and advised me of 172 traffic at my 10 and that I was #2 behind him. I called back with "really, I just passed him?" "OK, you are #1 to land." That was nice.

 

[dell30rb]

Not so long ago the tower had me coming in and advised me of 172 traffic at my 10 and that I was #2 behind him. I called back with "really, I just passed him?" "OK, you are #1 to land." That was nice.

Lots of towers don't have radar.

When I was doing my student solo x/c's I went to a nearby class D. I called up and reported my position. There was a cardinal coming in from the same direction, neither of us had GPS and we kept giving somewhat inaccurate distance info to the tower. It was kinda funny, as we were the only aircraft in the area and the controller didn't know who was coming in first. Neither did we. Finally I spotted the cardinal and confirmed I was 2nd to land.

 

[OrangeOkie]

Originally Posted by Silvaire
Shouldn't be a problem so long as you're not cutting the other guy off. When the Cub guy gets abeam the numbers he's going to chop the power and land, he shouldn't have to extend because the Velocity guy is now on a 2 mile final.

Passing and then exploiting the fact that you are on final first to gain the right of way is what I meant with being a jerk.

This I agree with. I would expect the Velocity to chop at the numbers as well in this situation, just to get in front of the Cub. To pass then extend two miles is not good head work, and possibly being a jerk!

 

[N5922S]

Wow, the pilot of the RV had nothing to do with it? The RV just took control over the pilot and cut you off?

Damn RV's.

Bless your heart, I'm sure you're not as simple-minded as you seem.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I was on right base and had a 210 call 3 mile straight in final, I finished my approach he did a go around. Came in the fbo yelling where is that Cherokee pilot came claiming he was going to call FAA and I told him call faa and then go **** yourself.

If I am at 500' and you call straight in from 2 or 3 miles away you better do some S turns of go around cuz I am landing.

 

[weilke]

I was on right base and had a 210 call 3 mile straight in final, I finished my approach he did a go around. Came in the fbo yelling where is that Cherokee pilot came claiming he was going to call FAA and I told him call faa and then go **** yourself.

If I am at 500' and you call straight in from 2 or 3 miles away you better do some S turns of go around cuz I am landing.

If you indeed cut him off close enough that he had to go around, you were in the wrong.

§ 91.113

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

He was on final, you were not.

I know it's aggravating and I dont think it's right. But the row rules are clear on this one.

 

[alfadog]

I was on right base and had a 210 call 3 mile straight in final, I finished my approach he did a go around. Came in the fbo yelling where is that Cherokee pilot came claiming he was going to call FAA and I told him call faa and then go **** yourself.

If I am at 500' and you call straight in from 2 or 3 miles away you better do some S turns of go around cuz I am landing.

Had one like that on Sat. I am in left downwind for 10 in the Luscombe. 10 is left traffic. I only have my handheld so am not making many radio calls, only when I think there may be an issue. Heard a guy announce a three mile right base for 10. I ignore him. Since he is saying "Hi" to a CFI in the pattern, I imagine he was a local CFI also. As I turn close left base he announces two mile right base. I announce and "helpfully" inform him that 10 is left traffic, a fact he is no doubt aware of. He says yeah but he did ask for any traffic (as in ATITAPA). I finish ignoring him.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Had one like that on Sat. I am in left downwind for 10 in the Luscombe. 10 is left traffic. I only have my handheld so am not making many radio calls, only when I think there may be an issue. Heard a guy announce a three mile right base for 10. I ignore him. Since he is saying "Hi" to a CFI in the pattern, I imagine he was a local CFI also. As I turn close left base he announces two mile right base. I announce and "helpfully" inform him that 10 is left traffic, a fact he is no doubt aware of. He says yeah but he did ask for any traffic (as in ATITAPA). I finish ignoring him.

Do you fly out of Tamiami? I'm coming that way in a month, I'll buy you a cup of coffee one day.

 

[alfadog]

Do you fly out of Tamiami? I'm coming that way in a month, I'll buy you a cup of coffee one day.

Absolutely. PM me with the details and we can get together. Best burger in Miami is right across from KTMB.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

If you indeed cut him off close enough that he had to go around, you were in the wrong.

§ 91.113

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

He was on final, you were not.

I know it's aggravating and I dont think it's right. But the row rules are clear on this one.

If I am at 1/4-1/2 mile and 500' turning final and you call 3 mile long final you better slow down cuz I am not doing a climb out and go around to get out of your way.

 

[OrangeOkie]

If I was on long final and there was another plane turning base, I would use that as an excuse to fly a NAVY BREAK over the numbers and come in behind you.

 

[alfadog]

If I was on long final and there was another plane turning base, I would use that as an excuse to fly a NAVY BREAK over the numbers and come in behind you.

Like this one at 580 knots?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1IGjsn5wGw

 

[dell30rb]

If I was on long final and there was another plane turning base, I would use that as an excuse to fly a NAVY BREAK over the numbers and come in behind you.

In the maritime world we have this unwritten thing called the big boat rule.

Basically the most maneuverable vessel gives way to the least maneuverable. If a big twin or jet comes in and makes the appropriate calls, i'll stay out of their way but still fly a pattern within gliding distance. For ex, if I am on downwind and a citation is on final, i'll stay at pattern altitude and fly a tight base and then upwind, back to crosswind and then downwind. Once I can visually assure their landing and no factor to me, i'll cut the power and land normally.

 

[weilke]

If I am at 1/4-1/2 mile and 500' turning final and you call 3 mile long final you better slow down cuz I am not doing a climb out and go around to get out of your way.

Again as aggravating as it is, it's the other way around: You better get on the ground quick and off the runway so you dont interfere with the person into whose final you just cut into.

 

[deeruck]

Again as aggravating as it is, it's the other way around: You better get on the ground quick and off the runway so you dont interfere with the person into whose final you just cut into.

I'm not sure that's the whole story. Advisory Circular AC 90-66A suggests:

7.e. The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Therefore, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times to aircraft executing straight-in approaches.

Tony_Scarpelli was the flow of arriving traffic at that time.

 

[alfadog]

I'm not sure that's the whole story. Advisory Circular AC 90-66A suggests:

Tony_Scarpelli was the flow of arriving traffic at that time.

I agree. The AC is very clear that a long straight-in is NOT a standard traffic pattern for arriving and departing aircraft and the fellow on the long straight-in must work around those in standard patterns. Not that anybody should be playing chicken.

 

[somorris]

Some of you guys sound like the drivers I see on the freeway everyday .

 

[zaitcev]

I'm no fount of aviation rectitude, but if the Cub was in the pattern, and the Velocity can't slow down to that speed, my opinion in is the Velocity should get out and rejoin. Not sure what is complicated.

This seems like a bogus and unexpected thing to do. Flying that Cub I would rather have them overtake on the right.

If the Velocity passes, on the right, the Cub is focused out the left side of the plane(left pattern), the Cub makes a base turn, descends and the Velocity makes his base turn, I can see where there is now a conflict.

I highly doubt it. Most likely the overtaking Velocity is going to be clearing the runway before Cub makes the base turn.

The biggest downside to this overtaking maneuver that I see is that the pilot of a 3rd party trying to join at 45 may get fixated on the Cub and try to join right in the Velocity's flight path. This can be aggravated if pilot of Velocity looks at the Cub too much too, instead of looking to the right.

Usually, however, the faster guy just cuts inside the base leg. In my practice they even ask, and I say "sure, I'll extend downwind for you, go ahead". This, however, is the RV schtick. A Velocity cannot do that well because it has no flaps.

 

[docmirror]

In the maritime world we have this unwritten thing called the big boat rule.

Basically the most maneuverable vessel gives way to the least maneuverable. If a big twin or jet comes in and makes the appropriate calls, i'll stay out of their way but still fly a pattern within gliding distance. For ex, if I am on downwind and a citation is on final, i'll stay at pattern altitude and fly a tight base and then upwind, back to crosswind and then downwind. Once I can visually assure their landing and no factor to me, i'll cut the power and land normally.

That's where I learned my approach as well. Got me a few thank you's and one paid for ramp/parking fee.

 

[Ghery]

In the maritime world we have this unwritten thing called the big boat rule.

Basically the most maneuverable vessel gives way to the least maneuverable. If a big twin or jet comes in and makes the appropriate calls, i'll stay out of their way but still fly a pattern within gliding distance. For ex, if I am on downwind and a citation is on final, i'll stay at pattern altitude and fly a tight base and then upwind, back to crosswind and then downwind. Once I can visually assure their landing and no factor to me, i'll cut the power and land normally.

AKA the "Law of Gross Tonnage". Biggest boat wins.

 

[davidm767]

I get the pleasure of instructing out of a Military/Civilian airport in SFAR 93 airspace. We are the slowest traffic in town (C-172) by an order of magnitude of approximately 100 knots. Common ops is to enter pattern and expect a three sixty if commuters are inbound, we expect a 360 if the fighters are departing the perch. Expect a 360 if the controllers are just plain behind (we have F35/F15/F16, C130/PC12s, MD-88s and the CRJ/ERJ types usually operating at the same time). I am quite proficient at right 360s.

Now at my home airport (same airspace 4 miles south from military base) typically sees the G550s, Global Expresses, Cirrus, Chieftains, etc mixing it up with 150/172s, RVs, and others. All at a non-towered airfield. Things get interesting. We typically have the big boys call out a 8 mile finals, while us little guys try to land to get out of the way. The airspace is super tight (highly traveled beach transition 1 mile south and fighters to the north), and its advertised to keep speed up and yield to FASTER traffic. This is strange me, but I guess with all of the cash money high ballers paying the bills (non federally funded airport), us little guys have to keep our eyeballs open for overpaid surgeons in their weekend toys (four T-6s operating off the field as well with highly non-standard patterns).

Try teaching primary students proper traffic flow when you have non-standard ops like this! Reminds me of flying in SoCal. Ha

Dave M
CFI/MEI-I

 

[MDeitch1976]

Another question to the OP is where was the cub in the pattern when being overtaken by the velocity? If the Cub is turning base, probably not a good time to overtake them. But, if the cub is not even mid field on downwind, I do not see a problem with this. To me this just seems like the slower traffic on the road that you go to pass, and they suddenly get angry and accelerate and maneuver to try to keep you from passing. What is the big deal? It is probably going to have zero factor to be passed either way.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Again as aggravating as it is, it's the other way around: You better get on the ground quick and off the runway so you dont interfere with the person into whose final you just cut into.

The good thing is that I always land on the numbers and take off the first ramp so that shouldn't be a problem. Now in the Comanche I am out of the way even quicker....

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Does Corona still average one midair collision per year?

I get the pleasure of instructing out of a Military/Civilian airport in SFAR 93 airspace. We are the slowest traffic in town (C-172) by an order of magnitude of approximately 100 knots. Common ops is to enter pattern and expect a three sixty if commuters are inbound, we expect a 360 if the fighters are departing the perch. Expect a 360 if the controllers are just plain behind (we have F35/F15/F16, C130/PC12s, MD-88s and the CRJ/ERJ types usually operating at the same time). I am quite proficient at right 360s.

Now at my home airport (same airspace 4 miles south from military base) typically sees the G550s, Global Expresses, Cirrus, Chieftains, etc mixing it up with 150/172s, RVs, and others. All at a non-towered airfield. Things get interesting. We typically have the big boys call out a 8 mile finals, while us little guys try to land to get out of the way. The airspace is super tight (highly traveled beach transition 1 mile south and fighters to the north), and its advertised to keep speed up and yield to FASTER traffic. This is strange me, but I guess with all of the cash money high ballers paying the bills (non federally funded airport), us little guys have to keep our eyeballs open for overpaid surgeons in their weekend toys (four T-6s operating off the field as well with highly non-standard patterns).

Try teaching primary students proper traffic flow when you have non-standard ops like this! Reminds me of flying in SoCal. Ha

Dave M
CFI/MEI-I

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

AKA the "Law of Gross Tonnage". Biggest boat wins.

This does not imply that anyone wins when he goes full speed ahead into the busy harbor.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

This seems like a bogus and unexpected thing to do. Flying that Cub I would rather have them overtake on the right.


I highly doubt it. Most likely the overtaking Velocity is going to be clearing the runway before Cub makes the base turn.

The biggest downside to this overtaking maneuver that I see is that the pilot of a 3rd party trying to join at 45 may get fixated on the Cub and try to join right in the Velocity's flight path. This can be aggravated if pilot of Velocity looks at the Cub too much too, instead of looking to the right.

Usually, however, the faster guy just cuts inside the base leg. In my practice they even ask, and I say "sure, I'll extend downwind for you, go ahead". This, however, is the RV schtick. A Velocity cannot do that well because it has no flaps.

Exactly! This is how Darwin culls the herd.

 

[Witmo]

It's been my experience that the faster planes fly the wider patterns so I rarely see a really slow plane flying such a wide pattern that a faster plane can safely pass him and turn inside him. I fly by the rule of "nose first, goes first." If a slower plane is in front of me, too bad for me. I'll do what it takes to land behind him unless he's nice enough to offer to extend his downwind so I can turn a short base and land in front of him. I'd be upset if someone decided to pass me in the pattern to land in front of me unless he was on fire.

 

[RoscoeT]

I'd be upset if someone decided to pass me in the pattern to land in front of me unless he was on fire.

Why would you be upset if they're no factor for you? Are you one of those drivers on the highway who speeds up when you see someone about to pass you?

 

[weilke]

It's been my experience that the faster planes fly the wider patterns so I rarely see a really slow plane flying such a wide pattern that a faster plane can safely pass him and turn inside him

'Turning inside' would be passing on the left rather than the right.

 

[alfadog]

Why would you be upset if they're no factor for you? Are you one of those drivers on the highway who speeds up when you see someone about to pass you?

Standard procedure in Miami. I grew up and learned to drive in New York and never witnessed that as common behavior until I lived in Miami. And it ain't just highways - it's everywhere. You put your turn signal on to merge into the next lane and that is the signal for the driver to close up any gap that was already there.

 

[AdamZ]

This happened to me once as a student pilot. Left down wind for 24 at KPNE. I recall thinking crap I'm really gaining on that plane what am I supposed to do? So I asked the tower and thy just gild me to do a 360. Don't think I'd o that at an uncontrolled field.