Overhead join of pattern question (now with photo of page)

LongRoadBob

LongRoadBob

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Ive tried to see where the safety lies in what I'm reading about what Pooleys Flying training book calls "overhead join" of the pattern.

I can try and post a photo later, but for now cannot. But imagine runway 18 where there is a left hand pattern (wind 180) so downwind is to the right of the runway.

So it shows and describes "overfly at 2,000 ft above aerodrome level, (picture shows the overfly heading 270 or so 1/3 of the way down runway 18) descend to circuit height on the inactive "dead" side (I think they mean upwind side) and then join the circuit by crossing the upwind end of the runway."

They show (at pattern height from their description and notes in the diagram) crossing the end of runway right at the edge of the runway 18 (or beginning of runway 36).

I don't get this. If it was only landings it would make sense to me, but presumably take offs are also happening, can anyone shed light on how this works? I imagine a plane taking off, getting up at 1000 feet or so before turnout, and it just seems like a weird procedure.

Follow up question. If a plane is taking off, does it have right of way until???
My worry about flying across the end of the takeoff runway, I also imagine a plane taking off but not yet at a safe height to give right of way by trying to bank to he right if the crossing aircraft.
 
Can't think of a reason to ever do this, you can just enter on the downwind... if you're coming from the other side, over fly the field somewhere in the middle at pattern altitude+500 and join the downwind.

Edit: Here's a picture of what you're referring to.

overhead-join.jpg
 
I don't understand why someone is trying to reinvent the wheel. If you are on the pattern side of the runway, a 45 into the downwind is the easiest entry.
 
I always try and be where other pilots expect me to be, as that makes me more visible. People se what they expect, and often don't see what they don't expect. Not a big fan of nonstandard approaches for this reason.
 
@LongRoadBob are you talking about a military overhead pattern? That pattern is 500' above the regular pattern altitude. IOW regulat pattern 1000' agl, overhead pattern 1500' agl. There's also a recommended traffic pattern altitude for large or turbine-powered airplane to enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of at least 1,500 feet above the elevation of the airport and maintain at least 1,500 feet until further descent is required for a safe landing.
 
OkieAviator said:
Can't think of a reason to ever do this, you can just enter on the downwind... if you're coming from the other side, over fly the field somewhere in the middle at pattern altitude+500 and join the downwind.

Edit: Here's a picture of what you're referring to.

overhead-join.jpg
Click to expand...

You, thanks, that was the same as mine.

Barneyfife said:
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2017/Jun/Non-Tower_Airport_Comms.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks, I just paged through but am going to read it all the way through and what I saw is what I thought would be normal joins of the pattern.

mscard88 said:
@LongRoadBob are you talking about a military overhead pattern? That pattern is 500' above the regular pattern altitude. IOW regulat pattern 1000' agl, overhead pattern 1500' agl. There's also a recommended traffic pattern altitude for large or turbine-powered airplane to enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of at least 1,500 feet above the elevation of the airport and maintain at least 1,500 feet until further descent is required for a safe landing.
Click to expand...

Nope, in Pooleys they just mention " the usual methods of entering the circuit pattern are"
And then list first joining on downwind, OR this. It's as I said, they mention 2000 ft overfly (maybe assuming 1500 + 500' but in my airport we have a 1500' pattern so...) and then being at circuit height when crossing the end of the runway.

They don't explain anything else about why you would do that, but I don't like it. The way to overfly In the link from barneyfifes post makes way more sense to me if you have to cross the runway.

Think now that unless my instructor, or someone here comes along with a really good reason I'm going to forget this one. I don't like anything about it.
 
LongRoadBob said:
You, thanks, that was the same as mine.



Thanks, I just paged through but am going to read it all the way through and what I saw is what I thought would be normal joins of the pattern.



Nope, in Pooleys they just mention " the usual methods of entering the circuit pattern are"
And then list first joining on downwind, OR this. It's as I said, they mention 2000 ft overfly (maybe assuming 1500 + 500' but in my airport we have a 1500' pattern so...) and then being at circuit height when crossing the end of the runway.

They don't explain anything else about why you would do that, but I don't like it. The way to overfly In the link from barneyfifes post makes way more sense to me if you have to cross the runway.

Think now that unless my instructor, or someone here comes along with a really good reason I'm going to forget this one. I don't like anything about it.
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I know you're in Norway I believe so you probably need to learn what is recommended or required there. However, in the states we teach what the FAA recommends. It's not mandatory but for training it's what is expected. Here an AC (Advisory Circular) that explains traffic patterns at nontowered/uncontrolled airports:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/ac90-42F.pdf
 
mscard88 said:
I know you're in Norway I believe so you probably need to learn what is recommended or required there. However, in the states we teach what the FAA recommends. It's not mandatory but for training it's what is expected. Here an AC (Advisory Circular) that explains traffic patterns at nontowered/uncontrolled airports:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/ac90-42F.pdf
Click to expand...

I don't see it in there. Did I miss it? Seemed to be on communication at untowered airports?
But yeah, the Pooleys is for the UK which also share the same SERA regulations.
Also, I haven't heard of this I our training yet. Going to look again. But I can't think of a time when I would choose that over the other options.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I don't see it in there. Did I miss it? Seemed to be on communication at untowered airports?
But yeah, the Pooleys is for the UK which also share the same SERA regulations.
Also, I haven't heard of this I our training yet. Going to look again. But I can't think of a time when I would choose that over the other options.
Click to expand...

Yes for untowered airports, and the pattern you looked for may be just for the UK, I dunno. But this AC I provided is for the US, as I mentioned.
 
Seeing the picture of the approach sorta makes sense if you are coming in and arriving nearer the base turn end of the pattern. Maybe its because if you enter where this example is drawn the downwind would be rather short?

I can see one issue with the method though. Some are taught when coming from the other side and high to stay way above the airport (same altitude as this case) and then cross and do a descending right 270 into the downwind. These two procedures when combined would have AC possibly meeting head on about 2000ft above the runway.
 
mscard88 said:
Yes for untowered airports, and the pattern you looked for may be just for the UK, I dunno. But this AC I provided is for the US, as I mentioned.
Click to expand...

What I meant was, I don't see any mention of pattern flying in this, that would pertain to the subject of how to join the pattern. Maybe I'm just missing it. The AC seems to be more about communication, etc.

Sinistar said:
Seeing the picture of the approach sorta makes sense if you are coming in and arriving nearer the base turn end of the pattern. Maybe its because if you enter where this example is drawn the downwind would be rather short?

I can see one issue with the method though. Some are taught when coming from the other side and high to stay way above the airport (same altitude as this case) and then cross and do a descending right 270 into the downwind. These two procedures when combined would have AC possibly meeting head on about 2000ft above the runway.
Click to expand...

Here again, it's probably me but I'm missing something here. In the first paragraph I don't see that is is a "short downwind", are we referring to the same drawing. The one OkieAviator provided in the first reply to the OP? It has one flying over the start of the runway, turning to "upwind" and crossing the end of the runway where I think it would be starting at the very beginning of the downwind leg. At least that's what I see.

This is the page from the book.

20180110_095740.jpg



The picture in my book is not quite as nice a flight path, it's more like a loop at right angles to the runway. Thanks all for the input!
 
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This is more and more like a way of crossing over the runway to view the windsock and clear the area.

If you were arriving from the non-circuit side you would overfly, and then descending 270 to downwind. Coming from the circuit side you could do this. Not sure what directions of arrival it is "better" for or the advantage of it, but I think the diagram including "signal area" could be part of the justification.
 
Either of the two pics below seems safer to me than the "Overhead Join" pattern Bob shows.

upload_2018-1-10_9-25-55.png

Fig 9 above is safest, IMHO, because there is no time the pilot is flying at pattern altitude in a non-pattern direction. I'd hate to fly Fig 10 if the pattern is crowded at all; that "Yield to 45 and downwind traffic" instruction could be very difficult to do with tight patterns and other planes in the vicinity. I'd only use it if I were certain there was no other traffic.

(Didn't an air-to-air happen last year with a plane doing a midfield entry?)

Fig 10 is closest to what Bob showed, but the crossing of the pattern is done at mid-field. The "Overhead Join" puts the plane crossing much closer to any traffic on the cross-wind leg. With a long runway and a light plane, departing traffic might be close to TPA by the end of the runway. I know that doing T&Gs in an LSA on a 5,000' runway I'd be pretty darn close.
 
Half Fast said:
Note to self - avoid flying in Norway.
Click to expand...

Well, keep in mind, this book is for the UK! I still have to find out if this is common to Europe (Norway follows SERA, the european regs but has some of their own twists on some parts) and specifically here.
 
Ravioli said:
This is more and more like a way of crossing over the runway to view the windsock and clear the area.

If you were arriving from the non-circuit side you would overfly, and then descending 270 to downwind. Coming from the circuit side you could do this. Not sure what directions of arrival it is "better" for or the advantage of it, but I think the diagram including "signal area" could be part of the justification.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think I mentioned the only thing that was in the text (shown on top part of the photo) was exactly that, though they don't give that as the reason to use it, they mention that with this you can check the wind sock or signal...

As a new student, maybe it is also the flight path that bugs me a little, I might have felt better about it if it did the upwind leg neatly and crossed, but still I can't get around the height and crossing end of the runway like that. Maybe it's common for example with go arounds? I'm still not totally clear, if one does a go around is it normal to fly say to the non pattern side a little, not be over the runway, and then cross as this shows?
 
Half Fast said:
Either of the two pics below seems safer to me than the "Overhead Join" pattern Bob shows.

View attachment 59187

Fig 9 above is safest, IMHO, because there is no time the pilot is flying at pattern altitude in a non-pattern direction. I'd hate to fly Fig 10 if the pattern is crowded at all; that "Yield to 45 and downwind traffic" instruction could be very difficult to do with tight patterns and other planes in the vicinity. I'd only use it if I were certain there was no other traffic.

(Didn't an air-to-air happen last year with a plane doing a midfield entry?)

Fig 10 is closest to what Bob showed, but the crossing of the pattern is done at mid-field. The "Overhead Join" puts the plane crossing much closer to any traffic on the cross-wind leg. With a long runway and a light plane, departing traffic might be close to TPA by the end of the runway. I know that doing T&Gs in an LSA on a 5,000' runway I'd be pretty darn close.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking too. I may be hung up on something because of my lack of experience, but it seems like above pattern height and crossing mid field is a lot safer than at the end of the active runway to me. I don't know. With so limited experience I have no way other than "slightly common sense" to judge it.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm still not totally clear, if one does a go around is it normal to fly say to the non pattern side a little, not be over the runway, and then cross as this shows?
Click to expand...


I was taught to fly a go-around slightly to the right of the runway, so that I could watch the runway for traffic by looking out my left window, then enter a normal crosswind, traffic permitting.
 
Half Fast said:
I was taught to fly a go-around slightly to the right of the runway, so that I could watch the runway for traffic by looking out my left window, then enter a normal crosswind, traffic permitting.
Click to expand...

Ok. So, I'm getting that part of my concern is really just my inexperience. But in the go around you have the runway, even though you still have to check and avoid, it would not be "normal" that someone was taking off such a short time after a go around? But doing the flyover and all there may be someone taking off, or ready to, and I guess you would see that on the flyover and extend before turning then to "upwind" so as to be ready to cross after they take off and clear the end?

I definitely will want to discuss this with my CFI, but it is good to think it through a little here with all this help.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm still not totally clear, if one does a go around is it normal to fly say to the non pattern side a little, not be over the runway, and then cross as this shows?
Click to expand...

Most go arounds are over the runaway, unless there is a plane on the runway (then I would move to the non-circuit side) or instructed by tower to move to the non-circuit side.

Of the two, I've only experienced the second. And that was on my first solo.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Here again, it's probably me but I'm missing something here. In the first paragraph I don't see that is is a "short downwind", are we referring to the same drawing. The one OkieAviator provided in the first reply to the OP? It has one flying over the start of the runway, turning to "upwind" and crossing the end of the runway where I think it would be starting at the very beginning of the downwind leg. At least that's what I see.
View attachment 59186
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My bad @LongRoadBob , I was commenting on drawing by @OkieAviator. Seeing your diagram, why not just descend earlier and enter the downwind on the 45?

Half Fast said:
View attachment 59187
Click to expand...
During my PPL training I have been taught two pattern entries for the image @Half Fast posted.
1.) My current CFI taught me to do the preferred method (figure # 9)
2.) My first CFI taught me to enter into the upwind, turn crosswind and cross before the departure end of the runway and then normal downwind, base, final.

Irony: My wife was taught and always does the alternate method (figure # 10). We've been married 10yrs, maybe its time she learns some new "methods" :)

.
 
Concur with Ravioli. If you're going around due to another plane taking off, get to the non-circuit side, keep your eye on the departing plane, and do whatever you have to do to avoid.

Regarding the "Overhead Join" - in simple minded terms, the place in the pattern that is the least likely to have another airplane at pattern altitude is the space directly over the runway. Therefore, that's where you should cross the runway if you're going to do so at TPA.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I don't see it in there. Did I miss it? Seemed to be on communication at untowered airports?
But yeah, the Pooleys is for the UK which also share the same SERA regulations.
Also, I haven't heard of this I our training yet. Going to look again. But I can't think of a time when I would choose that over the other options.
Click to expand...

My apologies Bob, I quoted the wrong AC. It's AC 90-66. sorry about that.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol....cfm/go/document.information/documentID/23093
 
Bob, I think the best advice and the best way to avoid conflicts in the pattern is to pay attention, listen and make radio calls, and look for other aircraft, here in the states there are situations where you may be landing with people who do not have radios. Try to paint a mental picture of where you are and where other AC are and plan accordingly. And speak up. If you are doing touch and go's in the pattern and have taken off turning crosswind and you hear someone checking in a mile out on a 45 for the pattern, announce where you are and work out a plan, ideally that guy will avoid you, but sometimes that doesn't happen, so plan and fly accordingly.
 
My favorite is also to overfly the TPA by 1000' and do a descending teardrop to the 45 entry. The key here is to fly far enough away from the airport before you start your descending turn to be well clear of anyone in the pattern...easy to turn too early.

It takes a little longer than a TPA midfield-to-downwind entry, but I'm never in a hurry. I find it's also more fun...typically my airspeed is higher when initiating the teardrop, so I feel more comfortable using a "sportier" bank angle.
 
With all due respect, this thread indicates why one should not ask for information on UK/European procedures on a US forum. Some of the opinions above would be extremely dangerous if flying in Europe where a 45 degree downwind join and other suggestions above are simply not done. Traffic would not be expecting you to join from this direction. I can only compare it to advising someone to drive on the right in the UK because that works in the US.

The overhead join (OHJ) is a well-established procedure in the UK and is used at airfields without full ATC but possibly with air/ground or AFIS (it's all a bit different). Other standard entries for the circuit (pattern in the US) are possible including crosswind, left base, straight in or downwind (where one would join straight onto the downwind and not at 45 degrees). All these entries would have to give way to traffic already in the circuit.

@LongRoadBob The dead side is the side on which the circuit is not, so for a left hand circuit, the side on the right at takeoff would be the dead side. With regard to take-offs, given that the OHJ is generally only at small fields, it would be unusual for departing traffic to be at 1000' by the end of the runway and fast-climbing traffic would be aware of the possible conflict. I am sure your instructor can do a better job of explaining this and it will make sense after some practice.
 
WhyIsItDoingThat? said:
With regard to take-offs, given that the OHJ is generally only at small fields, it would be unusual for departing traffic to be at 1000' by the end of the runway and fast-climbing traffic would be aware of the possible conflict.
Click to expand...


Wouldn't it be even more unusual for departing traffic to be at 1000' by the middle of the runway? If true, it seems like that would be a safer place when crossing at pattern altitude than the end of the runway.
 
jebus....y'all could screw up a wet dream lol
 
Half Fast said:
Wouldn't it be even more unusual for departing traffic to be at 1000' by the middle of the runway? If true, it seems like that would be a safer place when crossing at pattern altitude than the end of the runway.
Click to expand...

True - but it is still very unusual to have traffic at 1000' at the departure end of the runway and crossing midfield would give quite a tight turn compared with crossing over the runway numbers at 2000' and aiming to cross the DER at 1000' given that we are generally talking about short(ish) runways. The OHJ is the subject of many discussions in the UK and is often done badly but it does work. Things go wrong when people do non-standard joins, coming from unexpected directions usually with poor radio calls.
 
One airport I controlled at had a 1000' restriction to maintain until departure end, mainly for the airline flights. It was to protect the overhead traffic 1600' pattern for fighters based there.
 
Half Fast said:
Either of the two pics below seems safer to me than the "Overhead Join" pattern Bob shows.

View attachment 59187

Fig 9 above is safest, IMHO, because there is no time the pilot is flying at pattern altitude in a non-pattern direction.
Click to expand...

I don't like the tear-drop to join the 45 (Fig 9). Thinking about what's going on, you're blinding yourself to any traffic entering on the 45 because in making your bank turn, you're putting your belly exactly toward you'd expect traffic to be. If I'm doing something like that, I'm doing it a couple of miles out and away from the 45 angle.
 
bflynn said:
I don't like the tear-drop to join the 45 (Fig 9). ..If I'm doing something like that, I'm doing it a couple of miles out and away from the 45 angle.
Click to expand...


If you’ll read the note on the figure, you’ll see that it is indeed supposed to be done a couple of miles out.
 
The overhead join was the standard in the UK when I learned to fly, back when Pontius was a pilot. And still is for the US Air force so I am told. It would be sensible in my opinion to have just one join method instead of two. And an anecdote:
Many years ago when a Royal was flying there would be a purple airway which one had to avoid. The Royals used to fly out of White Waltham, at the time RAF home command had a base there. I was coming back on day when the purple airway was supposed to be over, and as I approached the field (non radio) I had a red signal from control stay away, so I orbited outside the traffic pattern and saw Prince Philip taxy out in an RAF twin with an instructor. The took off, and I got the green light to make my approach, so started the over head join and at mid field HRH was flying towards me. Some rapid evasion tactics on my part! Must have had a very stupid instructor!
 
bflynn said:
I don't like the tear-drop to join the 45 (Fig 9). Thinking about what's going on, you're blinding yourself to any traffic entering on the 45 because in making your bank turn, you're putting your belly exactly toward you'd expect traffic to be. If I'm doing something like that, I'm doing it a couple of miles out and away from the 45 angle.
Click to expand...

And if you turn crosswind, you're blinding yourself to any traffic entering on the downwind.

Nothing is perfect, but getting far enough away from the traffic pattern before the teardrop minimizes the chance of aluminum-on-aluminum contact.
 
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