Overflying Mexico, to Whom do I Owe Money Edition

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RKW

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RKW
This weekend, I was flying from KTUS - KDRT to drop off a pup to her forever home. This is the first time I've flown over a place that isn't the US...

Clearance: KTUS - T306 - ELP - V198 - FST - KDRT @ 11,000

Enroute, ATC cleared me direct at ANIMA, which put me over Mexican airspace. Pretty sure (99 %) this is/was legal, but equally sure now I owe someone in Mexico money for overflight. Do I, was it?
 
RKW said:
This weekend, I was flying from KTUS - KDRT to drop off a pup to her forever home. This is the first time I've flown over a place that isn't the US...

Clearance: KTUS - T306 - ELP - V198 - FST - KDRT @ 11,000

Enroute, ATC cleared me direct at ANIMA, which put me over Mexican airspace. Pretty sure (99 %) this is/was legal, but equally sure now I owe someone in Mexico money for overflight. Do I, was it?
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No. Yes.
 
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Unless you plan on landing in Mexico in the future I wouldn’t worry about it.
 
Ah yes good ol KDRT, my old stomping grounds. surprised they have pets flown in, given how that area has a gargantuan stray animal problem driven by socioeconomics, but I digress

There's an agreement in the El Paso area where approach corridors extend into mexico, so bouncing back and forth the imaginary line while IFR is not an issue.

As to the re route, are you saying they gave you anima to Kdrt direct? Were you ever talking to Mexican ATC?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Ah yes good ol KDRT, my old stomping grounds. surprised they have pets flown in, given how that area has a gargantuan stray animal problem driven by socioeconomics, but I digress

There's an agreement in the El Paso area where approach corridors extend into mexico, so bouncing back and forth the imaginary line while IFR is not an issue.

As to the re route, are you saying they gave you anima to Kdrt direct? Were you ever talking to Mexican ATC?
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@RKW ???
 
hindsight2020 said:
There's an agreement in the El Paso area where approach corridors extend into mexico, so bouncing back and forth the imaginary line while IFR is not an issue.

As to the re route, are you saying they gave you anima to Kdrt direct? Were you ever talking to Mexican ATC?
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Yep, T306 Anima, at Anima, Direct KDRT. Was talking to Mexican ATC, which is what prompted the question. The whole thing was odd, since I filed to stay north of the border, but there was WX, which likely drove the reroute (kept me south of the wx), and it wasn't significantly shorter to shortcut at anima.
 
Said earlier, there's an LOA (Letter of Agreement) for the El Paso sector allowing that after coordinating with Mexico, they send planes here over Juarez all the time.

That being said:

1. Your insurance might not cover an incident on that side of the border
2. If you were carrying a firearm and had an issue and landed, major deal over there - no firearmsn or ammo are allowed.
3. If it's an off airport landing, they consider it a crime. My old CFIs buddy landed off airport transporting computer chips. He was arrested and held for 2 weeks. Plane was dismantled and trucked AFTER the cargo was stolen ... he never flew there again ...
 
RKW said:
Yep, T306 Anima, at Anima, Direct KDRT. Was talking to Mexican ATC, which is what prompted the question. The whole thing was odd, since I filed to stay north of the border, but there was WX, which likely drove the reroute (kept me south of the wx), and it wasn't significantly shorter to shortcut at anima.
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I dunno, but you may want to find out before ever going to Mexico. In the meantime I think I might refuse the clearance if getting it again.
 
Oh, that's wacky. If I get a routing from ATC that takes me into MX airspace, and I do not have insurance cover for MX ops, will the LoA or ATC instruction keep my insurance in play, or am I expected to refuse such a clearance?

I hate gray areas w/r/t insurance. I'd sort of expect my insurance to cover me in this case, despite all, as a show of good faith, but insurance companies lately seem to be turning screws. I'd hate to be caught out by something like that.
 
schmookeeg said:
Oh, that's wacky. If I get a routing from ATC that takes me into MX airspace, and I do not have insurance cover for MX ops, will the LoA or ATC instruction keep my insurance in play, or am I expected to refuse such a clearance?

I hate gray areas w/r/t insurance.
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Exactly. I had no intentions of going to Mexico. I was already looking to divert (not to Mexico) and wait out the weather. In this circumstance, it worked out, but hope and luck are poor hedges for unpreparedness.
 
schmookeeg said:
Oh, that's wacky. If I get a routing from ATC that takes me into MX airspace, and I do not have insurance cover for MX ops, will the LoA or ATC instruction keep my insurance in play, or am I expected to refuse such a clearance?
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I live 2 miles from the border, and no longer accept these vectors (CHL-LTC carrying a gun is a decades long sentence in Juarez - jails aren't very comfortable either). I counter with can 360 here, climb, descend, but can't take that vector. In my area, it is usually a new controller that can't handle more than 2 AC in the class C at a single time. Worst case scenario, fly the Anthony Gap and stay out of the Class C space ...
 
danhagan said:
I live 2 miles from the border, and no longer accept these vectors (CHL-LTC carrying a gun is a decades long sentence in Juarez - jails aren't very comfortable either). I counter with can 360 here, climb, descend, but can't take that vector. In my area, it is usually a new controller that can't handle more than 2 AC in the class C at a single time. Worst case scenario, fly the Anthony Gap and stay out of the Class C space ...
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Shrug. I'd wager that the majority of GA pilots are not also LTC holders, and that your comment is not applicable, though it is duly noted. At 11,000 I was well above the Class C.
 
A few times in my airline career I entered Mexican airspace in the El Paso area dodging TRW. ABQ Center was never happy, but they told me after the fact, they coordinated, and all was ok.
 
The problem with that LOA is not knowing the limitations. Sometimes Mexico doesn't allow over flights. I've heard guys on the radio riding victor airway 16 66 (parallels the border between El Paso and AZ) state they were getting "squeezed" by cells from the north and needed that diversion over Mexico.
 
There are multiple international letters of agreement for US Operations to be controlled on the Mexican side of the border. Based in El Paso (KELP), we are routinely vectored into Mexican airspace (per Letter of Agreement) and in fact one of the instrument approaches into El Paso even has its FAF inside Mexican airspace (look up the Localizer 4 approach). You are legal flying into the Mexican airspace as long as you follow US clearances. No, you don't get a Mexican invoice because you never used Mexican services (it is US services operating by LOA).
 
ATC zones crossing the border is normal on the north side, too. If you want to depart IFR from Sault Ste Marie, Michigan, you get your clearance from Toronto Centre; if you want to do an instrument approach into Windsor, Ontario, you talk to Detroit Approach.
 
RKW said:
Shrug. I'd wager that the majority of GA pilots are not also LTC holders, and that your comment is not applicable, though it is duly noted. At 11,000 I was well above the Class C.
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Many TX pilots have LTCs (as of Dec 31, 2020, there were 1.62 million LTCs in TX). When flying in the desert Southwest, a firearm is survival gear. I have flown S TX to S AZ many times over ELP, and have refused routing over Mexico. I have also overflown the class C to avoid the issue.
 
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