Overflying class D

[Bwing96]

If the class D airspace is depicted on the chart from the surface to say 2600 and you are flying VFR, and your course goes directly over the airport. Would you make contact with ATC if you are over 2600 ft. or only if you were wanting to transition their airspace at or below 2600?

 

[PittsDriver]

Probably not, and definitely. Same answer for C and B airspace. My rationale is that the area right over top of the airport at altitude isn't that useful to ATC and in fact, when I want to transition, say Baltimore or JFK's airspace, I most often get vectored directly over the airport VFR. If I'm up at 12,500 over the class B I'll probably just move on along listening to my tunes and leave them alone on the radio.

 

[Skip Miller]

There is no obligation to do so if you are above the D ceiling. However if you are skimming over the top (with barely legal cloud clearance above you, for example), call them and tell them as a courtesy. Get flight following and there is no need to call them....

-Skip

 

[GMascelli]

If the class D airspace is depicted on the chart from the surface to say 2600 and you are flying VFR, and your course goes directly over the airport. Would you make contact with ATC if you are over 2600 ft. or only if you were wanting to transition their airspace at or below 2600?

If it's Military I always call and advise overflying the area. Depending if the class delta is busy I will call and advise over flight of their space too. Never hurts to give a call, you might get a heads up about departing aircraft heading your direction.

Example would be Dover AFB in Delaware, heading south you are always near or above their space. I usually get Flight following if not on an instrument flight plan with Dover Approach, but if not, I would call to advise. C17's and C5's are everywhere in the area, not to mention heavy civilian carries contracting with the AF.

 

[Bwing96]

Thank you for all the responses, I find them very helpful.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Depending on the location, you may be able to transition a portion of the Class D by just talking to Approach vs. the actual tower. For example, when navigating around the Boston B using Flight Following, Boston Approach will often clear you to transition the Bedford/Hanscom class D at or above 2500' (Charted Class D is 2600' and below). If you ask to transition lower than 2500, Approach will tell you to contact the tower.

 

[pilot_dude]

As a courtesy, I contact approach/tower and let them know my intention. If I'm not in a hurry I will even ask if they prefer an overflight or if I side step. Every time I've given the option, they tell me to proceed on course and thank me for the option.

 

[Matthew]

I fly from a Class D that butts up against another Class D. Depending on your direction of arrival/departure you can't help but but fly over/through the other Class-D. Seems that if you can reach or maintain altitude to fly over, before you get there, the tower just prefers you leave them alone.

I've also flown over an AFB at about +1000' above their D-space and did let them know what I was doing. They gave me a squawk code and flight following until I was well clear. I was a student pilot back then, and it made me feel important.

 

[poadeleted20]

If I'm not going to be in their airspace, I don't call them. If you want to call someone, call the ATC facility which owns the airspace you're actually in.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I fly from a Class D that butts up against another Class D. Depending on your direction of arrival/departure you can't help but but fly over/through the other Class-D. Seems that if you can reach or maintain altitude to fly over, before you get there, the tower just prefers you leave them alone.

Really? Must fly the Skyhawks then . I never had any problems being on top of the western airport when climbing out to the west, or getting a decent set up to stay clear of the western Class D coming back in from the east.

But no, sometimes I'll call if I'm flying over and I know its a busy area and I might want to transition the airspace. More often than not I'll at least listen to the frequency, just to get an idea of what's going on, and then if something may be a problem with what I'm doing, I'll give them a call.

 

[xaminmo]

If it's quiet, they might like the contact for their numbers.

If it's busy, don't bother them; however, keep an ear out for any traffic headed your way, or the tower calling you because your xpdr stopped transmitting altitude.

 

[Matthew]

Really? Must fly the Skyhawks then .

Yeah, 180 horses help.

Take off from 18 or 36 and start climbing. Noise abatement rules don't allow turns at too low an altitude, so you already have a good headstart before you turn toward the other airport. On a good day, you can be above the neighboring class D before you cross the boundary between the two.

From what I've overheard on the radios, the neighboring tower doesn't want to hear from you unless you are going to clip their airspace.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Yeah, 180 horses help.

Take off from 18 or 36 and start climbing. Noise abatement rules don't allow turns at too low an altitude, so you already have a good headstart before you turn toward the other airport. On a good day, you can be above the neighboring class D before you cross the boundary between the two.

From what I've overheard on the radios, the neighboring tower doesn't want to hear from you unless you are going to clip their airspace.

+1 I can't say I have personally ever heard a positive response from a class D tower from someone calling in an overflight. Responses I've heard range from "Um, okay" to "You don't need to let us known unless you will be in our airspace."

There has been ONE occasion where I did a VFR departure from a Class D airport, made a turn and overflew the Class D and the tower asked if I was still on frequency in order to give me a traffic advisory.

 

[bobmrg]

As a courtesy, I contact approach/tower and let them know my intention. If I'm not in a hurry I will even ask if they prefer an overflight or if I side step. Every time I've given the option, they tell me to proceed on course and thank me for the option.

A lot of frequency congestion is caused by pilots using the radio "as a courtesy" to controllers. It is easier and faster for controllers to acknowledge these transmissions than to educate pilots about who to contact and when to contact them. I'm with Cap'n Ron...talk to the folks whose airspace you are in (or about to enter).

Bob Gardner

 

[steingar]

I don't call anyone if I'm not going to be in their airspace. One of my favorite flights was flying over the top of the Chicago Bravo not talking to anyone and thumbing our noses at them. Aviation radios are supposed to be used for necessary communication, not courtesies or checking to see how someone's fishing trip went.

 

[Clark1961]

A lot of frequency congestion is caused by pilots using the radio "as a courtesy" to controllers. It is easier and faster for controllers to acknowledge these transmissions than to educate pilots about who to contact and when to contact them. I'm with Cap'n Ron...talk to the folks whose airspace you are in (or about to enter).

Well, there is that whole thing of "Contact XXX approach on 1xx.xx within XX miles of XXX." Obviously somebody wants folks to be talkin' when they're close by but not necessarily in a given airspace.

Of course, with a Class D it is different since they probably don't have an Approach who actually owns the airspace (although some D's do).

 

[PittsDriver]

If I'm not going to be in their airspace, I don't call them. If you want to call someone, call the ATC facility which owns the airspace you're actually in.

This makes perfect sense but I'd guess that a lot of pilots that don't have an IFR ticket won't know what this means. VFR pilots fly around keeping track of airspace that appears on the sectional that might mean that you need to avoid it or be talking to someone. If you're instrument rated, you're more schooled and practiced in the use of "the system" and how to work it to your advantage. For example, above that class D airspace, you might be in some ATC Center or TRACON controller's airspace and that'll be the place you'll call if you want flight following or be otherwise talking to about traffic.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Well, there is that whole thing of "Contact XXX approach on 1xx.xx within XX miles of XXX." Obviously somebody wants folks to be talkin' when they're close by but not necessarily in a given airspace.

Of course, with a Class D it is different since they probably don't have an Approach who actually owns the airspace (although some D's do).

That would be in reference to class B and C airspace, where you need to contact ATC before entering, vs. calling the tower directly like you typically would if you are landing at a class D airport. Note though that if you are already talking to ATC, you are automatically cleared through C and D airspaces.

 

[Clark1961]

That would be in reference to class B and C airspace, where you need to contact ATC before entering, vs. calling the tower directly like you typically would if you are landing at a class D airport. Note though that if you are already talking to ATC, you are automatically cleared through C and D airspaces.

Ah, but the note doesn't say a darn thing about whether or not you are entering the airspace, just to make the contact with XX miles. It'd be nice if there was a note to indicate which D's had their own approach services.

 

[flyersfan31]

I did it a few times. After the 3rd or 4th "You're not in my airspace, I don't give a $ht" I figured that they probably don't give a $ht. Haven't called since.

But I always call untowered fields to ask if any traffic is in the pattern, and what is the active.:wink2::wink2::wink2:

 

[Fearless Tower]

Note though that if you are already talking to ATC, you are automatically cleared through C and D airspaces.

Not entirely true - see my comment about the Boston Airspace - with some exceptions as I mentioned, Approach cannot generally clear you through a tower's class D - that is something you have to contact the tower for. If you are talking to Approach and they have cleared you for the Bedford transition at or above 2500' and you descend below 25 for any reason, you have busted airpsace even though you are talking to Approach.

 

[Doggtyred]

Not entirely true - see my comment about the Boston Airspace - with some exceptions as I mentioned, Approach cannot generally clear you through a tower's class D - that is something you have to contact the tower for. If you are talking to Approach and they have cleared you for the Bedford transition at or above 2500' and you descend below 25 for any reason, you have busted airpsace even though you are talking to Approach.

But what really happens is.. The approach guy hits an intercom button, talks to the tower, says.." I've got this guy.. gonna transition through a corner of your space.. you want him or you want me to keep him?.."

They work it out quickly, behind the scenes, saving you a radio call or two.

Safe.. orderly.. Efficient.

 

[Gary F]

I have flown IFR to airports near Class B airports and have always been vectored around the Class B airspace. If ATC vectors me through Class B airspace will they always use the magic words "Cleared through Class Bravo" or will it be assumed?

 

[Sac Arrow]

Not entirely true - see my comment about the Boston Airspace - with some exceptions as I mentioned, Approach cannot generally clear you through a tower's class D - that is something you have to contact the tower for. If you are talking to Approach and they have cleared you for the Bedford transition at or above 2500' and you descend below 25 for any reason, you have busted airpsace even though you are talking to Approach.

Certainly decending below 2500' would violate an ATC directive in that case, which would be also be another way of saying "remain clear of class D." Correct me if I'm wrong but it's up to ATC to tell you to remain clear of class C or D airspace if you are already in two way communication with them per FAR 91.129.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I have flown IFR to airports near Class B airports and have always been vectored around the Class B airspace. If ATC vectors me through Class B airspace will they always use the magic words "Cleared through Class Bravo" or will it be assumed?

It's irrelevant if you're IFR. You are automatically cleared where you are vectored to.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Certainly decending below 2500' would violate an ATC directive in that case, which would be also be another way of saying "remain clear of class D." Correct me if I'm wrong but it's up to ATC to tell you to remain clear of class C or D airspace if you are already in two way communication with them per FAR 91.129.

My point is that the approach controller does not own the class D airspace and unless he is able to coordinate with the tower to clear you through, you are not able to transition without talking directly to the tower. Just because you have established two-way comms with someone in the ATC world does not mean that you have established two way comms with the CORRECT ATC'er who actually owns the airspace.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have flown IFR to airports near Class B airports and have always been vectored around the Class B airspace. If ATC vectors me through Class B airspace will they always use the magic words "Cleared through Class Bravo" or will it be assumed?

If you're IFR, your clearance (be it to a fix, or on a vector) is a clearance into whatever's between you and that fix, or in front of you on the vector.

You only need to hear the magic words if you're VFR.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My point is that the approach controller does not own the class D airspace and unless he is able to coordinate with the tower to clear you through, you are not able to transition without talking directly to the tower. Just because you have established two-way comms with someone in the ATC world does not mean that you have established two way comms with the CORRECT ATC'er who actually owns the airspace.

This is one of those "it's everybody's fault" situations.

The controller is supposed to coordinate or hand you off:

2-1-14. COORDINATE USE OF AIRSPACE
a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of jurisdiction.

But, of course, as PIC you might want to verify before you go cruising right into someone else's airspace.

 

[dbman5]

I fly from a Class D that butts up against another Class D. Depending on your direction of arrival/departure you can't help but but fly over/through the other Class-D. Seems that if you can reach or maintain altitude to fly over, before you get there, the tower just prefers you leave them alone.

I've also flown over an AFB at about +1000' above their D-space and did let them know what I was doing. They gave me a squawk code and flight following until I was well clear. I was a student pilot back then, and it made me feel important.

Just don't get so used to climbing over the adjacent class D that you do it everywhere without checking the charts. Going VFR over KARB westbound out of KYIP is generally a very, very bad idea. (Hint: There's a 3000' foot Class B shelf over both.)

 

[roncachamp]

Not entirely true - see my comment about the Boston Airspace - with some exceptions as I mentioned, Approach cannot generally clear you through a tower's class D - that is something you have to contact the tower for. If you are talking to Approach and they have cleared you for the Bedford transition at or above 2500' and you descend below 25 for any reason, you have busted airpsace even though you are talking to Approach.

Actually, if you're receiving radar services the aproach/ARTCC controller is required to coordinate your transition through Class D airspace. You are not expected to contact the tower yourself. See JO 7110.65T Air Traffic Control para 2-1-16.b.

 

[roncachamp]

My point is that the approach controller does not own the class D airspace and unless he is able to coordinate with the tower to clear you through, you are not able to transition without talking directly to the tower. Just because you have established two-way comms with someone in the ATC world does not mean that you have established two way comms with the CORRECT ATC'er who actually owns the airspace.

Actually, the approach controller may very well "own" the Class D airspace. If the tower has to call the approach control to launch an IFR or SVFR departure the tower doesn't "own" the airspace, approach does. You don't have to ask anyone's permission to use your own property.

 

[roncachamp]

This is one of those "it's everybody's fault" situations.

The controller is supposed to coordinate or hand you off:


Originally Posted by FAAO 7110.65T
2-1-14. COORDINATE USE OF AIRSPACE
a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of jurisdiction.

But, of course, as PIC you might want to verify before you go cruising right into someone else's airspace.

I think this one is more pertinent:

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower

for transit authorization when you are providing radar
traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter
another facility's airspace.​

​

​

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization
through each area when in contact with a radar facility.​

 

[Fearless Tower]

Actually, if you're receiving radar services the aproach/ARTCC controller is required to coordinate your transition through Class D airspace. You are not expected to contact the tower yourself. See JO 7110.65T Air Traffic Control para 2-1-16.b.

If you are VFR and receiving advisories, you are the low man on the totem pole and priority list for ATC. If you are just bepopping around, ATC will coordinate things IF traffic permits - ever heard 'unable to effect handoff, contact the next controller on xxx.xx'. Around high volume IFR airspace (Boston for example), that is quite common.

My point was trying to clear up a misconception that alot of pilots have that Sac Arrow mentioned. Just because you are talking to a controller, doesn't mean you can't bust airspace. As pilots, we need to know where we are, and where we are going at ALL times from startup to shutdown. Talking to a controller does not shift the burden of responsibility from the pilot.

With regards to the reference, the controller may be required to coordinate the transition IF the transition is required. Now consider this - if you are receiving VFR radar advisories, unless you have been given an altitude to maintain, the altitude you fly is generally up to pilot's discretion. If you are flying over a class D airport and let's say you descend to maintain cloud clearance, but you don't tell the controller what you are doing and that controller is busy at the moment with IFR traffic, you have just busted the class D below you and it is 100 percent YOUR fault - not the controller's.

 

[dmccormack]

If you are VFR and receiving advisories, you are the low man on the totem pole and priority list for ATC. If you are just bepopping around, ATC will coordinate things IF traffic permits - ever heard 'unable to effect handoff, contact the next controller on xxx.xx'. Around high volume IFR airspace (Boston for example), that is quite common.

Even in low traffic areas this happens. I've flown VFR with students from Ohio east towards the Pitt Class B and more often than not 20 nm or so from Pitt you'll hear, "Radar services terminated, squawk 1200. You can try Pittsburgh approach on 119.35..."

 

[steingar]

I've never been on flight following and not been given an assigned altitude and asked to report any deviations. I've been cleared on FF through Delta, Charlie, and Bravo airspaces. Indeed, if you are actively receiving radar advisories, you would have to request a frequency change (or closely monitor two at once) just to make the transit request.

 

[dmccormack]

I've never been on flight following and not been given an assigned altitude and asked to report any deviations. I've been cleared on FF through Delta, Charlie, and Bravo airspaces. Indeed, if you are actively receiving radar advisories, you would have to request a frequency change (or closely monitor two at once) just to make the transit request.

Hunh?

If you start requesting altitudes outside of Class B or C you'll usually be reminded, "N1234 is VFR, altitude pilot's discretion."

 

[gprellwitz]

Hunh?

If you start requesting altitudes outside of Class B or C you'll usually be reminded, "N1234 is VFR, altitude pilot's discretion."

But I am frequently asked to report altitude changes if on FF. Not the same as requesting permission for them, but that way everyone is on the same page.

 

[Fearless Tower]

But I am frequently asked to report altitude changes if on FF. Not the same as requesting permission for them, but that way everyone is on the same page.

Just depends on the airspace and traffic - Before I was instrument rated, I used flight following everywhere I went around New England. The only places I was ever given an altitude to maintain or stay above/below where either within or in the immediate vicinity of Class B or C airspace for obvious reasons. When flying without an assigned altitude and informing the controller of an altitude change, a typical response in New England was 'altitude at your discretion' in a tone that suggests 'don't borry me vfr dude, I'm busy with the jets'.

 

[steingar]

I misspoke, and thank you for the detection. No, I do not always get assigned altitudes on FF (though I have on multiple occasions, often buy not always near controlled airspace), but I am usually asked to report any altitude changes.

 

[Sac Arrow]

With regards to the reference, the controller may be required to coordinate the transition IF the transition is required. Now consider this - if you are receiving VFR radar advisories, unless you have been given an altitude to maintain, the altitude you fly is generally up to pilot's discretion. If you are flying over a class D airport and let's say you descend to maintain cloud clearance, but you don't tell the controller what you are doing and that controller is busy at the moment with IFR traffic, you have just busted the class D below you and it is 100 percent YOUR fault - not the controller's.

"N343SA altitude is at your discretion."

"N343SA your decent into Class D airspace was not authorized and you have performed an incursion on airspace."

"So then are you saying altitude wasn't at my discretion?"