Overflight of Wilderness Areas

CC268 said:
Gotcha...yea definitely not going there in a Cherokee 140 lol.
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Cherokee 140 is just fine up there, as long as you are light, and know to expect the effects of high DA. I'd go there on my 150. Just don't expect 800fpm climb initially. Many people have accidents because they fly like it is sea level, and pull to get climb rate they expect. and pull more. and pull more... You get the point :)
 
I am wondering if some commenters are aware that quite a few pilots fly almost exclusively in the backcountry, often even for a living?

Flying downhill, over a relatively steep valley, is certainly one of the safer options and this is exactly what the OP was asking for.

@jakepilot23:
Get some proper mountain flying training, buy a good book which covers the theories behind safe mountain flying practices, hook up with other backcountrypilots and enjoy!
There is no need to fly over each and every pass and valley with a CFI, before you go there - it is however important to develop a understanding of how to read the terrain, the weather and how to safely operate in it. Not rocket science, but certainly very different from 'normal' flying and actually very interesting.

Personally, I would love to move west, so that I could fly in the mountains all the time!
 
JoseCuervo said:
I can't imagine spending time flying where I am constantly worried about ditching/gliding. What a life unfilled.

I would guest that 80% of my destination have 80% of the time with an un-survivable engine-out. And, I don't spend a minute of time worrying about it. You would never get off the ground in many of the best places to fly.

The OP lives in Utah, in just a few hours, he can be in some great places to fly, without pavement, without people, and learn to enjoy the activity.

Hell, look at Johnson Creek, just a 3 hour flight from the OP.

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Look at all those people who flew in, that an off airport landing, likely would not have been something they survived, certainly not anything they would be relying on CAP to come find them. And, this runway is generally considered one of the easier "bottom of a canyon" strips.

The OP is missing out on too much if limits himself to gliding distance of pavement.....
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That's gotta be the fourth time you sent up that straw man.

Who BESIDES YOU has insisted on gliding distance to pavement?

That you equate that with newbies flying inside -- not over -- canyons without knowing their *** from a hole in the ground places your judgment in question. You have given TERRIBLE advice in context.

That's a real nice photo, but I don't see any of those guys flying down a high altitude canyon with no training. Maybe some of them did. But grass and canyons are very different things.
 
Palmpilot said:
Here's a photo of the area of the crash site, from the national CAP Web site. I was impressed with the use of airborne photography to make the find. In the past, finding a crash in the Sierras has usually taken a lot longer than three days.

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http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news...chers_to_downed_cessna&show=news&newsID=22623
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Richard, that's Google Earth, not the photo in question.

I was in the highest altitude plane, and I didn't get anywhere near that kind of perspective. You would have to be well into the flight levels, and over the lake, to do that. Those peaks are just under 10,000.

Contact Jackie for the low-down. She was in charge of intel, and got the maximum probability area pretty much right on target.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes it was. All I know is he was returning home from a hunting trip solo. No one I've talked to has any idea why he launched out of his Reno fuel stop. It seems insane to everyone.

Honestly, that's the worst terrain in the area to fly through in bad weather. Even Donner Pass would have been (much) better.
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First of all, a big thanks for going out there and finding him.

Desolation Wilderness is, to me, one of the most beautiful places on earth, on foot. Love the hike to Twin Lakes.
 
The thing is, when someone new asks a question like this, we don't have any idea about their experience, the airplane, or if they've seen the area before.
 
MAKG1 said:
Richard, that's Google Earth, not the photo in question.

I was in the highest altitude plane, and I didn't get anywhere near that kind of perspective. You would have to be well into the flight levels, and over the lake, to do that. Those peaks are just under 10,000.

Contact Jackie for the low-down. She was in charge of intel, and got the maximum probability area pretty much right on target.
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Oops!

I was trying to confine my posting to information that CAP had already made public, and made a naive assumption about what was on the NHQ Web site. :oops:
 
MAKG1 said:
No, don't just go.

I spent all day Tuesday looking for someone who did that. It was not pretty.

Get some training.

Jose, the OP is asking questions so basic, it's very obvious he hasn't done this before. You walk before you can run; a canyon is NOT a good idea for early mountain training. It's not responsible to advise otherwise. Mountain flying isn't terribly difficult -- until you get in over your head, and then it's incredibly unforgiving. Remember, the guy who wrote the book got killed doing it.
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Not going would definitely be the best option. I don't have to fly down that canyon, it would be purely for fun and sight seeing. Going from SLC to the Heber airport requires overflight of mountainous terrain but it is possible to avoid going down canyons where there are two high altitude peaks on either side of me. The canyon in question would be a shortcut back to the valley. I have done it before with an instructor, but I remember him telling me not to do this without him. I can definitely go back the way I came from SLC to Heber which also requires canyon flying, just not as extreme.
 
MAKG1 said:
Because a ditching in a single is normally pretty survivable, but not there. You have NO options. And a pilot who flies without options is a fool.
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Ahh I gotcha
 
Old Geek said:
First of all, a big thanks for going out there and finding him.

Desolation Wilderness is, to me, one of the most beautiful places on earth, on foot. Love the hike to Twin Lakes.
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Believe me, it was VERY nice in good weather from the air. I wish I was there under better circumstances. Though to be honest, when I fly around there, I try to fly around the wilderness rather than over it, if for no other reason than being nice to hikers. No one goes to the wilderness to watch planes.

For the record, we held at 12500, and gliding to TVL was an easy option at that altitude, even over the ridge. The search planes and helicopters might have had to land out. But there were several survivable spots to land there above the tree line, if you had control over your sink rate (the accident plane did not).
 
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jakepilot23 said:
Not going would definitely be the best option. I don't have to fly down that canyon, it would be purely for fun and sight seeing. Going from SLC to the Heber airport requires overflight of mountainous terrain but it is possible to avoid going down canyons where there are two high altitude peaks on either side of me. The canyon in question would be a shortcut back to the valley. I have done it before with an instructor, but I remember him telling me not to do this without him. I can definitely go back the way I came from SLC to Heber which also requires canyon flying, just not as extreme.
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Sounds very sensible. You CAN learn how to do this, it's just not a good idea to do it all at once. There are techniques for managing some of the risk, such as crossing ridges at 45 deg and learning how to read the winds. A good mountain flying clinic or just a very skilled specialty instructor can go a long way.

I wouldn't suggest a high altitude canyon as a shortcut. Perhaps as a destination. And downslope is a much better direction than upslope, at least without a tailwind (wind blowing down the canyon from above is a bad situation).
 
Few rules to help "amateurs" (such as myself) survive the mountains:

If the winds are 20+, don't go.
If there is a widespread SIGMET for any nasty weather (mountain obscuration, LLWS), don't go.
If you don't know the terrain intimately and it's dark, don't go.
If your route takes you through a narrow pass where you can't turn around, don't go.
 
mtuomi said:
Few rules to help "amateurs" (such as myself) survive the mountains:

If the winds are 20+, don't go.
If there is a widespread SIGMET for any nasty weather (mountain obscuration, LLWS), don't go.
If you don't know the terrain intimately and it's dark, don't go.
If your route takes you through a narrow pass where you can't turn around, don't go.
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All good advice.

I had some trepidation about the search last week. The forecast was 30+ knot westerly winds at 12000, normally a no-go in high mountains.

But it was calm at TVL, and we had another aircraft up there prior to my arrival that could give a PIREP for exactly the right location.

It really was 30+ knots, but smooth as a baby's butt, and very little up/down drafts. Not common for both; I was expecting some mountain wave conditions, and was prepared to position myself west of the ridge, or bug out if needed, with lots of terrain clearance (3000+ AGL) to work with. Turns out it didn't matter. Go figure.

There have been other flights I've taken around there where unforecast 20 knot north winds knocked my teeth out.

I'll add another bit of advice. IMC and high mountains don't mix without FIKI. Even with it, take real seriously. Big rocks make big ice in winter and big thunderstorms in summer. And real high MEAs don't help.
 
MAKG1 said:
There are some Federal lands that will give you a fine. They are labeled on the charts. Though Yosemite used to be one of them, it isn't anymore. But Grand Canyon is. Most national parks request you maintain 1000 AGL.

Frankly, fines are the least of your worries on an outing like that. MANY people get killed flying in high altitude box canyons. That terrain looks nasty, unless you have an airplane that an cruise above the highest terrain, and climb at 500 FPM while up there. AND the winds are light enough to support it.
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Aren't all the fines only in the parks that have SFRA's ?
 
MAKG1 said:
It's also much deeper. Temperature doesn't change much around the year; it's always cold and never frozen. You'll die just as easily in summer than winter. No one goes sailing in the center of the lake, only near-shore.

And unlike Lake Michigan, there is seldom much penalty to going around. Even for very short flights (like KTVL -> KTRK), flying the lake shore yields almost no penalty.
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The temperature doesn't change THAT much in LM either, except very near shore. You can die of hypothermia any month of the year if you ditch in the middle and there aren't any ships nearby.

I'll grant you though, it is much bigger and there is a more significant penalty to going around. But there are many pilots who cannot be enticed even by that. I don't think the comparison is that inapt - both overflights entail risk.

So I go back to, and stand by, my first point, that how much risk you are willing to accept is a personal choice. I wouldn't fault anyone for flying over either Tahoe or Michigan - and I wouldn't fault them for refusing to overfly either.

Personally the decision that the pilot under discussion made that bothers me the most was overflying a mountain wilderness in bad weather. I've overflown Mt. Washington and the Pemigewasset Wilderness in NH, but I wouldn't do either except in ideal weather conditions (and in a well-maintained, trusted aircraft).
 
Palmpilot said:
From a safety point of view, over a canyon is usually better than in a canyon.
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When the peaks are 14k' and you service ceiling Is 10k' you are in the canyon.

The better question is, how wide is the canyon?
 
Tom-D said:
When the peaks are 14k' and you service ceiling Is 10k' you are in the canyon.

The better question is, how wide is the canyon?
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True. I was thinking in terms of narrow canyons.
 
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