Overflight of Wilderness Areas

jakepilot23

jakepilot23

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
7
Display Name
Display name:
jakepilot23
I have a question about overflight of wilderness areas. I know that you are RECOMMENDED to fly at least 2,000 feet above the area. I also know that there are some areas where you can be fined up to $10,000 for breaking this rule. My question is about a specific area in Salt Lake City. Just south and a little east of the SLC INT airport, there are some wilderness areas. If you look at the Lone Peak wilderness area and the Twin Peaks wilderness areas, they are very close together but don't overlap. There is a canyon that runs between these two areas that I am wondering if it is breaking any rules if I fly down the canyon. I would be super close to the area, if not penetrate it because the two wilderness areas are so close.

Ultimately, can I fly down this canyon without breaking any rules (assuming that I am precise and don't cross into the area on my left or right)?

P.S I would post a picture of it but I am new to this so I can't post it.
 
And if something goes wrong while you're flying in the canyon, what are your options? What altitude will be be flying?
 
I am assuming you are talking about Lone Peak Wilderness Area and MT Timpanogos Wilderness area. If that is there case, and you stay outside of each then you should be fine, but like murphey said, what are your options. If you flew down there you won't be able to turn unless you climb into a wilderness area. How high would you be flying? If you went through that gap and were heading northeast then I wouldn't go below 11500 because that would clear you of peaks on the east side after you pass that area. My concern would be: where would I go if my engine stopped. If I didn't have oxygen, I would spend a little extra time going around the high terrain to the south east of that area.
 
jakepilot23 said:
I have a question about overflight of wilderness areas. I know that you are RECOMMENDED to fly at least 2,000 feet above the area. I also know that there are some areas where you can be fined up to $10,000 for breaking this rule. My question is about a specific area in Salt Lake City. Just south and a little east of the SLC INT airport, there are some wilderness areas. If you look at the Lone Peak wilderness area and the Twin Peaks wilderness areas, they are very close together but don't overlap. There is a canyon that runs between these two areas that I am wondering if it is breaking any rules if I fly down the canyon. I would be super close to the area, if not penetrate it because the two wilderness areas are so close.

Ultimately, can I fly down this canyon without breaking any rules (assuming that I am precise and don't cross into the area on my left or right)?

P.S I would post a picture of it but I am new to this so I can't post it.
Click to expand...
upload_2016-10-25_13-54-35.png
 
Ohhh you meant twin peaks. I would not recommend that at all. They practically touch.
 
I'm no mountain flyer, but doesn't that look like a dead end? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong canyon.
 
murphey said:
And if something goes wrong while you're flying in the canyon, what are your options? What altitude will be be flying?
Click to expand...

Having just gone on a search for a dead guy in a wilderness area, this is a rather important issue.

It took two days of waiting out weather, and two days of ground searching to find the wreckage, with a radar last known position at 300 AGL. Even if the guy had survived the crash -- and occasionally such miracles do happen in hostile terrain -- three nights in freezing weather (at least one in blizzard conditions) and two feet of snow would have done him in.
 
The gap in the wilderness areas is not for airplanes, it's for the road, and those are dead-end canyons.
 
Could you legally fly through directly over the road? Yes.

Personally I would fly higher and would not mess with it. I do fly through canyons but I don't see a reason to do it there.
 
Not sure where you're seeing huge penalties. Not on federal to my knowledge. Yosemite and Grand Canyon are regulated because folks couldn't resist. Rocky Mountain NP west of me has talked about it when a helio tour op was proposed. I try to respect it when I can but I can't maintain 2000' over Rocky, would be close to 16000' msl. If you go straight across and don't circle and sight see nothing will happen. I worked for the Forest Service and managed Wilderness part of my career. Never a problem with through flight. We did get complaints when hunter were spotting game.
 
Following on with more questions for the OP....Have you driven the area? How familiar are you with it? Have you driven the road in that canyon? Would you be comfortable flying in that canyon, after having driven thru it?

I have non-negotiable rules regarding mountain flying.
1) I don't fly a mountain pass until I've either flown it with a very knowledgable pilot who knows the pass, winds, etc. very well
2) I don't fly mountain pass between Nov & March, at least not out here in Colorado. Winds, weather, etc.
3) I don't fly up or down canyons unless there's an exit at both ends, and the exit is NOT at the top of the next mountain.

I fly either Scanner and Observer positions for CAP. We never know what we'll find.
 
I'd think that there are so many beautiful and interesting places to fly that are far less likely to kill you that there is no reason to risk places that might.
 
I think you'd be fine, it says recommended, I think the only folks who would give you issues would be state folks, not the FAA. They got plenty of other pretty colors and symbols they could have put around that area if there absolutely didn't want you in there.

That said, I don't break that recommendation, aside from trying to help the critters, this always comes to mind.

 
James331 said:
I think you'd be fine, it says recommended, I think the only folks who would give you issues would be state folks, not the FAA. They got plenty of other pretty colors and symbols they could have put around that area if there absolutely didn't want you in there.

That said, I don't break that recommendation, aside from trying to help the critters, this always comes to mind.

Click to expand...

There are some Federal lands that will give you a fine. They are labeled on the charts. Though Yosemite used to be one of them, it isn't anymore. But Grand Canyon is. Most national parks request you maintain 1000 AGL.

Frankly, fines are the least of your worries on an outing like that. MANY people get killed flying in high altitude box canyons. That terrain looks nasty, unless you have an airplane that an cruise above the highest terrain, and climb at 500 FPM while up there. AND the winds are light enough to support it.
 
Spend lots of time flying canyons and lower altitudes over wilderness areas. Some of the most fun flying you can do.

I would hate to see people discourage having fun while flying.

Lotta time I will fly a canyon from the top to the bottom, The first pass. To see how it lays.

Subsequent passes may be below the rim of the canyon. Frequently.

Lots of backcountry airstrips are in the bottom of canyons. Avoiding them because of a mythical engine failure would eliminate much of the joy of flying.

Go for it. Learn it. You'll be a better Pilot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JoseCuervo said:
Spend lots of time flying canyons and lower altitudes over wilderness areas. Some of the most fun flying you can do.

I would hate to see people discourage having fun while flying.

Lotta time I will fly a canyon from the top to the bottom, The first pass. To see how it lays.

Subsequent passes may be below the rim of the canyon. Frequently.

Lots of backcountry airstrips are in the bottom of canyons. Avoiding them because of a mythical engine failure would eliminate much of the joy of flying.

Go for it. Learn it. You'll be a better Pilot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

No, don't just go.

I spent all day Tuesday looking for someone who did that. It was not pretty.

Get some training.

Jose, the OP is asking questions so basic, it's very obvious he hasn't done this before. You walk before you can run; a canyon is NOT a good idea for early mountain training. It's not responsible to advise otherwise. Mountain flying isn't terribly difficult -- until you get in over your head, and then it's incredibly unforgiving. Remember, the guy who wrote the book got killed doing it.
 
MAKG1 said:
Having just gone on a search for a dead guy in a wilderness area, this is a rather important issue.

It took two days of waiting out weather, and two days of ground searching to find the wreckage, with a radar last known position at 300 AGL. Even if the guy had survived the crash -- and occasionally such miracles do happen in hostile terrain -- three nights in freezing weather (at least one in blizzard conditions) and two feet of snow would have done him in.
Click to expand...

Was that the Cessna that went down in Desolation Wilderness? Any thoughts on why he would have been up there in exquisitely bad weather?
 
Old Geek said:
Was that the Cessna that went down in Desolation Wilderness? Any thoughts on why he would have been up there in exquisitely bad weather?
Click to expand...
Yes it was. All I know is he was returning home from a hunting trip solo. No one I've talked to has any idea why he launched out of his Reno fuel stop. It seems insane to everyone.

Honestly, that's the worst terrain in the area to fly through in bad weather. Even Donner Pass would have been (much) better.
 
MAKG1 said:
No, don't just go.

I spent all day Tuesday looking for someone who did that. It was not pretty.

Get some training.

Jose, the OP is asking questions so basic, it's very obvious he hasn't done this before. You walk before you can run; a canyon is NOT a good idea for early mountain training. It's not responsible to advise otherwise. Mountain flying isn't terribly difficult -- until you get in over your head, and then it's incredibly unforgiving. Remember, the guy who wrote the book got killed doing it.
Click to expand...


So, some guy flew in to terrain in bad weather????

Not real transferable to the OP.


Here is a sample of the advice he got.

forseth11 said:
My concern would be: where would I go if my engine stopped. If I didn't have oxygen, I would spend a little extra time going around the high terrain to the south east of that area.
Click to expand...


murphey said:
And if something goes wrong while you're flying in the canyon, what are your options? What altitude will be be flying?
Click to expand...



People telling him to never fly away from gliding distance from the runway.

The OP needs to learn to be comfortable in the mountains if he flies in Utah.

Go fly. Have fun. Learn to fly with external references.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JoseCuervo said:
So, some guy flew in to terrain in bad weather????

Not real transferable to the OP.


Here is a sample of the advice he got.








People telling him to never fly away from gliding distance from the runway.

The OP needs to learn to be comfortable in the mountains if he flies in Utah.

Go fly. Have fun. Learn to fly with external references.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Some guy with little regard to the excess risk he's taking flew into the worst terrain in the area in bad weather. There was a LONG accident chain, and he'd still be with us if he had chosen his terrain with that in mind.

What "went wrong" in this case is probably a strong downdraft, coupled with routine low altitude flying. The OP is proposing something similar, in unspecified weather.

The accident aircraft also flew over the center of Lake Tahoe below 10,000, something I won't do in a single. A ditching is exceedingly unlikely to be survivable.

Telling the OP to be sensible is far short of telling him to stay in gliding distance of a runway. Too bad you don't see the difference. You gotta be aware of the risks you're taking.
 
Risks are personal. Flying over Lake Tahoe would result in what, a couple minutes out of gliding distance? Plenty would see that as a reasonable risk.
 
dans2992 said:
Risks are personal. Flying over Lake Tahoe would result in what, a couple minutes out of gliding distance? Plenty would see that as a reasonable risk.
Click to expand...

I agree. Flying over Mark Twain National Forest (nothing but baseball bats and 2x4s with leaves on them) is risky, too, and fun as well following some of the streams at 1500 AGL. A risk I am willing to take.

On the other hand, I would not put that canyon on my things to do list.
 
dans2992 said:
Risks are personal. Flying over Lake Tahoe would result in what, a couple minutes out of gliding distance? Plenty would see that as a reasonable risk.
Click to expand...

MUCH more than a couple of minutes. The lake is more than 20 miles across, and the surface is over 6000 feet.

And ditching is nearly certain death. The lake is cold and very large. No one will get to you in time, even if they see you go down.

By comparison, skirting the (north) edge from Reno to Jackson costs .... a couple of minutes. And one guy would still be alive if he did that, as the terrain is also lower west of the lake there. By thousands of feet.

Those of us who have a clue what we're doing pick terrain for conditions. Highest terrain is for good weather only, with careful consideration of the airplane's capabilities ahead of time, plus alternatives if it doesn't go as well as planned.
 
MAKG1 said:
MUCH more than a couple of minutes. The lake is more than 20 miles across, and the surface is over 6000 feet.

And ditching is nearly certain death. The lake is cold and very large. No one will get to you in time, even if they see you go down.
Click to expand...
Sounds a lot like crossing Lake Michigan in winter (more like 50 miles across, actually), except for the 6000 feet part.

As others have said, risk is a personal matter. I've overflown LM when a ditching would have been almost certain death. So have many other folks. Some avoid it like the plague. That's okay too. It's a personal decision.

I used to be based at an airport where an engine out on takeoff would have meant severe injury or death for certain as there was no reliably good place to put down (suburban airport in the middle of a commercial area, with a mall across the street that you pass straight over on approach). I figure 15 minutes out of glide distance to shore doesn't add appreciably to my exposure.

As long as I don't make a habit of it.
 
azure said:
Sounds a lot like crossing Lake Michigan in winter (more like 50 miles across, actually), except for the 6000 feet part.

As others have said, risk is a personal matter. I've overflown LM when a ditching would have been almost certain death. So have many other folks. Some avoid it like the plague. That's okay too. It's a personal decision.

I used to be based at an airport where an engine out on takeoff would have meant severe injury or death for certain as there was no reliably good place to put down (suburban airport in the middle of a commercial area, with a mall across the street that you pass straight over on approach). I figure 15 minutes out of glide distance to shore doesn't add appreciably to my exposure.

As long as I don't make a habit of it.
Click to expand...

It's also much deeper. Temperature doesn't change much around the year; it's always cold and never frozen. You'll die just as easily in summer than winter. No one goes sailing in the center of the lake, only near-shore.

And unlike Lake Michigan, there is seldom much penalty to going around. Even for very short flights (like KTVL -> KTRK), flying the lake shore yields almost no penalty.
 
Interesting comments on risk assessment and tolerance. No largish bodies of water around here but plenty of tall rocks. I find it interesting that folks seem to like Corona pass when heading west from Denver. Fly about 15 minutes north and the terrain is much lower and usually you need that time to climb to get over Corona.

I just about always avoid Corona anymore. Partly because of the DEN surface area - I either go around it to the north or I have to fly over urban areas. When I started flying over rocks I tended to try for straight lines. Now I tend to find the lowest terrain. That doesn't mean I fly low, just that I try to have as much air between me and the ground.
 
murphey said:
Following on with more questions for the OP....Have you driven the area? How familiar are you with it? Have you driven the road in that canyon? Would you be comfortable flying in that canyon, after having driven thru it?

I have non-negotiable rules regarding mountain flying.
1) I don't fly a mountain pass until I've either flown it with a very knowledgable pilot who knows the pass, winds, etc. very well
2) I don't fly mountain pass between Nov & March, at least not out here in Colorado. Winds, weather, etc.
3) I don't fly up or down canyons unless there's an exit at both ends, and the exit is NOT at the top of the next mountain.

I fly either Scanner and Observer positions for CAP. We never know what we'll find.
Click to expand...



I have driven this canyon countless times so I am familiar with it. I have even flown down the canyon one time with an instructor a couple years ago. I didn't know back then that there was a wilderness area on both sides, or maybe there wasn't back then. I remember going down the canyon and my instructor told me not to do this without him. I have more experience now and would be smart about it IF I decided to do it again. I would never fly down the canyon unless the weather was near perfect.

I have lived near that canyon my whole life so I could almost drive it blind. At the bottom of the canyon it opens into the valley and at the top of the canyon it opens into a different open area that eventually leads to Heber airport.
 
I can't imagine spending time flying where I am constantly worried about ditching/gliding. What a life unfilled.

I would guest that 80% of my destination have 80% of the time with an un-survivable engine-out. And, I don't spend a minute of time worrying about it. You would never get off the ground in many of the best places to fly.

The OP lives in Utah, in just a few hours, he can be in some great places to fly, without pavement, without people, and learn to enjoy the activity.

Hell, look at Johnson Creek, just a 3 hour flight from the OP.

04.jpg


Look at all those people who flew in, that an off airport landing, likely would not have been something they survived, certainly not anything they would be relying on CAP to come find them. And, this runway is generally considered one of the easier "bottom of a canyon" strips.

The OP is missing out on too much if limits himself to gliding distance of pavement.....
 
JoseCuervo said:
Spend lots of time flying canyons and lower altitudes over wilderness areas. Some of the most fun flying you can do.

I would hate to see people discourage having fun while flying.

Lotta time I will fly a canyon from the top to the bottom, The first pass. To see how it lays.

Subsequent passes may be below the rim of the canyon. Frequently.

Lots of backcountry airstrips are in the bottom of canyons. Avoiding them because of a mythical engine failure would eliminate much of the joy of flying.

Go for it. Learn it. You'll be a better Pilot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Thank you for this response. I am getting a lot of arguments for both sides of things and ultimately I want to better and a safe pilot while still having fun. With that being said, the only reason I would fly down this canyon would be totally for fun. I remember flying down the canyon that one time with my instructor where the peaks were above us and it was awesome. It was good to see the canyon that I have driven hundreds of times from the air.

The argument that the risk isn't worth it is interesting to me. I flew from SLC to JAC (Jackson Hole) on Sunday and flew over a ton of mountainous areas. As I was flying over them I thought "This would suck worse if I had an engine failure here, more than if I was in that canyon". I don't want to avoid flying in the mountains, and frankly I don't think that is possible in Utah. I just want to understand every aspect of it so I can be as safe and legal as possible.
 
MAKG1 said:
It's also much deeper. Temperature doesn't change much around the year; it's always cold and never frozen. You'll die just as easily in summer than winter. No one goes sailing in the center of the lake, only near-shore.
Click to expand...
Lake Michigan is cold. I don't care what time of year it is.
 
From a safety point of view, over a canyon is usually better than in a canyon.
 
MAKG1 said:
Having just gone on a search for a dead guy in a wilderness area, this is a rather important issue.

It took two days of waiting out weather, and two days of ground searching to find the wreckage, with a radar last known position at 300 AGL. Even if the guy had survived the crash -- and occasionally such miracles do happen in hostile terrain -- three nights in freezing weather (at least one in blizzard conditions) and two feet of snow would have done him in.
Click to expand...

Here's a photo of the area of the crash site, from the national CAP Web site. I was impressed with the use of airborne photography to make the find. In the past, finding a crash in the Sierras has usually taken a lot longer than three days.

CAfind_D80F92E93A542.jpg


http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news...chers_to_downed_cessna&show=news&newsID=22623
 
Last edited:
Palmpilot said:
From a safety point of view, over a canyon is usually better than in a canyon.
Click to expand...

There are some benifits to flying the other IFR too, I Follow Roads

But yeah, depends on the situation, weather, aircraft, canyon, etc.
 
Why is it dangerous to fly over Lake Tahoe? I am confused?
 
CC268 said:
Why is it dangerous to fly over Lake Tahoe? I am confused?
Click to expand...

Never worried about flying over Lake Tahoe. Only concerns I have had there are taking off with density altitudes in the 8500-9000' range...

" C'mon baby..... you can climb...."
 
JoseCuervo said:
Never worried about flying over Lake Tahoe. Only concerns I have had there are taking off with density altitudes in the 8500-9000' range...

" C'mon baby..... you can climb...."
Click to expand...

Gotcha...yea definitely not going there in a Cherokee 140 lol.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top