Our new normal :(

It's not a new normal. It's just in a different place so it's new to you.

The problem is the Secret Service. These TFR's and the size of them are ridiculously stupid. They make very little logical sense in regards to protecting the President.
 
Yep.

This was our lives when 43 was in residence down near Waco; but at least (1) the TFR was in a not-ridiculously-crowded area, and (2) the controllers were simply awesome in helping pilots (who were smart enough to ask for the help) to avoid trouble.
 
More curious about what will happen to those pilots..... never knew anyone in that particular predicament.
 
It's been going on since bush jr, and it's stupid and pointless, some security for POTUS and friends is to be expected, but this is way too much.
 
I feel for the flight schools and aviation businesses affected. The margins for profit aren't that great to begin with.
 
James331 said:
It's been going on since bush jr, and it's stupid and pointless, some security for POTUS and friends is to be expected, but this is way too much.
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It's been going on since way before Bush Jr. I remember a TFR for Reagan when he went to Boise in the 80s. Also ones for Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton in Denver in the 90s.
 
That sucks for you guys in Florida. Let's hope the Orange One decides to spend more time in the White House.
 
This does suck. I'm glad I live in the middle of nowhere and this stuff doesn't affect me personally. However, I feel for you all that are affected by it. I agree with the above comments regarding how these TFR's do nothing for the safety of the president. Just an absolute pain for everyone nearby.
 
I'm surprised there's not a block of TFR'd airspace from take-off to landing. Guess the fighter escorts take care of that. o_O
 
I'm just saying'... why not carry ridiculous to its logical conclusion? Who's to stop anyone from violating Class A airspace?
 
I have it on good authority that previous presidents, especially W, love him or hate him, would actually plan their travel to limit disruption to the public. Sometimes W would spend free time at Camp David just to give the secret service a break since the marines did the heavy lifting there.

VERY different than the current regime.


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N659HB said:
I'm just saying'... why not carry ridiculous to its logical conclusion? Who's to stop anyone from violating Class A airspace?
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The purpose of the TFRs is early warning. That already exists in the A. If someone's there that isn't supposed to be, ATC will know it, no matter how close or far he is from AF1.
 
One time, I was flying through P49 (Waco) when it was hot, flight plan filed,, squawking and talking, all good. While trolling along, Waco Approach (and they were and are pros, great service always) gives another plane a vector, "to avoid restricted airspace."

Guy asks, snide voice, "What, is ol' Bushie in town?" Approach said, "Stand by," and in the count of three, next call was, "Waco Approach, Air Force One, three thousand, gear down."

Guy got an instruction to land at (I think) Hillsboro, and from what I could tell, he was offered the opportunity to meeet some new friends in helicopters...
 
SCCutler said:
...Guy asks, snide voice, "What, is ol' Bushie in town?" Approach said, "Stand by," and in the count of three, next call was, "Waco Approach, Air Force One, three thousand, gear down."

Guy got an instruction to land at (I think) Hillsboro, and from what I could tell, he was offered the opportunity to meeet some new friends in helicopters...
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For making a snide remark, or did he actually violate the airspace?
 
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SCCutler said:
Yep.

This was our lives when 43 was in residence down near Waco; but at least (1) the TFR was in a not-ridiculously-crowded area, and (2) the controllers were simply awesome in helping pilots (who were smart enough to ask for the help) to avoid trouble.
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Not long after 9/11 the charter company I worked for was hired to test the atc/mil response if an aircraft deviated from their flight plan and made a run on the ranch. It was spooky turning off the transponder on ignoring atc's repeated calls while we made a run on Crawford. The first time we were intercepted not to far from the objective. Couple weeks later we were advised to knock it off a long ways out.... and we never saw the intercepting aircraft. Never went back after that one. I assumed we were "shot down" by something on the ground the second time around.
 
While the area of the TFR may be excessive (I won't argue that), it is simple negligence on the part of those pilots for not checking TFR's before the flight. I flew from NC to DAB that morning and I was aware of the TFR, where it was, and the time it went live the previous day before making the flight.
 
The kid that did the 1/5/02 attack on a high rise in Tampa was intercepted, but he just ignored the signals and flew into the building anyhow.

Of course, a real terrorist would follow instructions to turn around and land.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The kid that did the 1/5/02 attack on a high rise in Tampa was intercepted, but he just ignored the signals and flew into the building anyhow.

Of course, a real terrorist would follow instructions to turn around and land.
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They scrambled F15s for one of the busts, I'm doubting that guy would have made it to his target were he evil.
 
PaulS said:
They scrambled F15s for one of the busts, I'm doubting that guy would have made it to his target were he evil.
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They did but they said it took 14 min for them to get there. A kamikaze pilot could make it in that time. Maybe we need bigger TFR's.

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linuxjim said:
They did but they said it took 14 min for them to get there. A kamikaze pilot could make it in that time. Maybe we need bigger TFR's.
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If that's an accurate report then it's worthless other than as security theater.

Flying at 180 kts a plane can cover 30 nm in 10 minutes. Add a tailwind, speed from descending and a fast single piston can cover that in even less time; what's the yellow arc or red line mean if you don't plan to reuse the plane. Step up to a PC-12, King Air, Biz Jet and the time just gets shorter.
 
Sigh. Living in the DC area we deal with it all the time. At least the FRZ has a procedure where you can get vetted and cleared to fly out of the three general aviation airports within (DCA is still off limits unless you have an air marshal on board). But the FRZ and SFRA are permanent restrictions, unlike most Presidential TFRs.

There are still fairly regular violations and intercepts around here, despite how long it's been in place and the fact that it's charted.

None of the violations have caused any damage, thought the postal employee that flew his ultralight down the mall a couple of years ago in violation of the SFRA and FRZ did cause some concern... no injuries or damage. Some of that concern was that he wasn't detected or chased.
 
PaulS said:
They scrambled F15s for one of the busts, I'm doubting that guy would have made it to his target were he evil.
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But, the Florida teen DID make it to his target. In spite of the fact that authorities were notified as soon as he took off (took off without notifying the tower) and he took the time to buzz MacDill AFB, he made it to his target.
 
linuxjim said:
They did but they said it took 14 min for them to get there. A kamikaze pilot could make it in that time. Maybe we need bigger TFR's.

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It isn't about the plane not making it to its target, it's about moving the protectee off the X. The USSS protective division doesn't have a general mission to prevent small planes from crashing into buildings, but it is their mission to assure their protectee isn't in the building that gets crashed into. Ten minutes is enough time for that. You can bet USSS is notified of every bust, and if an intercept progresses to a certain point, they'll will take steps to protect the VIP, even if that doesn't stop the attack.

Odds of an F15 going weapons free on a C150 over Florida are approximately zero.
 
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