Pretty certain I am going to start my panel upgrade on a 77 182q. All original. Going to start with 2 g5's and a AP. Is electric trim worth adding another 4k to price. What are the advantages? Thanks for all replies.
Ordering 2 g5's and gfc500
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denverpilot
Tied Down
If the AP can’t trim the airplane it becomes something you have to manage for it. It’s a “real” two axis AP if it can trim for itself.
I haven’t looked at how Garmin implemented it, but in other APs if they’re two axis without trim, let’s say you have the airplane trimmed for a climb and the AP levels it off at a particular altitude.
As airspeed builds the forward/down force necessary to stay level will build, and the AP will start hollering about you needing to trim for it or it’s going to kick off line because the pitch force it needs to hold level flight is building.
I think you’re going to want the electric pitch trim integrated with the AP. It gives the AP the ability to climb/descend and level off better.
If they implemented it the way I think they did, anyway.
WannFly
Final Approach
Yes. As @denverpilot puts it, g5 will prompt for trim, it can get annoying soon. Download and read the manual from Garmin s website, version 11 has everything u need to know. I don’t know if the GFC 500 is approved for ur plane or not. As in today it isnt
Edit: your plane is in the approved model. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional
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Ravioli
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[Enter Ravioli in contrarian mode]
With manual trim, my Autopilot gives me an indication and I make the adjustment manually. I've never had to return from the restroom or put my cocktail down to respond to the prompt from the autopilot.
I have switched the autopilot off in cruise to see where in the trim range the plane is actually flying. The Cardinal has electric pitch and if I disengage the AP there is no movement on the yoke. The RV has manual pitch and if I disengage it can/will move the stick.
Electric trim is a nice to have. I don't know how $4k fits in your wallet.
With manual trim, my Autopilot gives me an indication and I make the adjustment manually. I've never had to return from the restroom or put my cocktail down to respond to the prompt from the autopilot.
I have switched the autopilot off in cruise to see where in the trim range the plane is actually flying. The Cardinal has electric pitch and if I disengage the AP there is no movement on the yoke. The RV has manual pitch and if I disengage it can/will move the stick.
Electric trim is a nice to have. I don't know how $4k fits in your wallet.
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Aztec Flyer
If he elects for the "nice to have" he will no longer be burdened with the concern about trying to fit those $ IN his wallet.
Ravioli
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If he elects for the "nice to have" he will no longer be burdened with the concern about trying to fit those $ IN his wallet.
Yup.. can help his Weight and Balance. While walking!
denverpilot
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Contrarian? We’ve ALL said “electric trim if you can afford it with an AP”, so far.
We allappear to be in violent agreement. One thing many of us have in our heads is that until this Garmin AP came out, the entire autopilot was going to cost over $10K more at a minimum, anyway. Just to even get one.
Everything was god awful expensive about autopilots for normal certification aircraft until very recently anyway. And even when they worked most of those older APs still sucked.
And THEN you paid for GPSS on top of that.
So ... $4K more to “do it right” still seems like a “bargain” to us. The Garmin is still “a lot of money” but just a couple years ago you’d be taking out a second mortgage to S-TEC.
Anyone new to this, the electric trim looks like a “big” add on chunk on the price. Anyone old, we’re like.... pfffft. Cheap! Hahaha. Kinda.
I’m also just freaking amazed at how so many places can’t seem to troubleshoot the older ones.
An aircraft I know went to Tulsa recently to finally nail down why the electric pitch trim and AP were intermittent. The thing has been looked at by a NUMBER of places and people.
Autopilot Central in Tulsa found...
Someone had driven a screw through something and into the electric pitch trim cabling.
Intermittent found. Ya think?!
Took like a day from what I heard. Others have messed with it for days. Multiple others.
Where have basic electronics troubleshooting skills gone?!?! Good lord.
Intermittent: Check connectors and then FOLLOW the cable everyplace you can see where it routes! LOOK at the damned thing.
C’mon technicians! Sheesh.
Anyway off on a tangent/rant there. Unbelievable. I hope those who couldn’t find that problem didn’t bill for the time they CLAIMED to be LOOKING at/for the problem.
That kind of stuff will drive you batty as an owner. Just stark raving batty when you find out multiple people didn’t find something that obvious.
AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
When is your install date? We are looking to do the same with our 182P and want to hear from others on the results.
Pinging our club’s treasurer, @texasag93, so he can follow the thread.
Pinging our club’s treasurer, @texasag93, so he can follow the thread.
Also, any ideas on how to mount? I'm thinking use existing holes. Down the road, when new gps, audio panel, transponder get installed I'll need to make some changes but not sure what to do. Budget for first go round is 20 - 25 AMU. Attached pic is current panel.PaulS
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Contrarian? We’ve ALL said “electric trim if you can afford it with an AP”, so far.
One thing many of us have in our heads is that until this Garmin AP came out, the entire autopilot was going to cost over $10K more at a minimum, anyway. Just to even get one.
Everything was god awful expensive about autopilots for normal certification aircraft until very recently anyway. And even when they worked most of those older APs still sucked.
And THEN you paid for GPSS on top of that.
So ... $4K more to “do it right” still seems like a “bargain” to us. The Garmin is still “a lot of money” but just a couple years ago you’d be taking out a second mortgage to S-TEC.
Anyone new to this, the electric trim looks like a “big” add on chunk on the price. Anyone old, we’re like.... pfffft. Cheap! Hahaha. Kinda.
I’m also just freaking amazed at how so many places can’t seem to troubleshoot the older ones.
An aircraft I know went to Tulsa recently to finally nail down why the electric pitch trim and AP were intermittent. The thing has been looked at by a NUMBER of places and people.
Autopilot Central in Tulsa found...
Someone had driven a screw through something and into the electric pitch trim cabling.
Intermittent found. Ya think?!
Took like a day from what I heard. Others have messed with it for days. Multiple others.
Where have basic electronics troubleshooting skills gone?!?! Good lord.
Intermittent: Check connectors and then FOLLOW the cable everyplace you can see where it routes! LOOK at the damned thing.
C’mon technicians! Sheesh.
Anyway off on a tangent/rant there. Unbelievable. I hope those who couldn’t find that problem didn’t bill for the time they CLAIMED to be LOOKING at/for the problem.
That kind of stuff will drive you batty as an owner. Just stark raving batty when you find out multiple people didn’t find something that obvious.
That's a common troubleshooting issue with people. They start looking at the worst case, most expensive thing first then get stumped when they find nothing or worse, replace the expensive part and it solves nothing. Always better to start simple and basic, then work toward the big stuff.
PaulS
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That's a nice but dated panel. I'd start with a list of what being tossed, then a list of what is going in. Then I would take a picture, or better yet get a big piece of paper, make a full scale drawing of where you would like things to go. You really aren't going to know much until you pull the fascia panels off, then it should start making sense. I would plan for the final panel now, with all the additions you plan, including future, put blanks in those spots. Then figure out how to modify it. Personally I'd want to do as much of this myself as I could, including getting the new panels made plus the underlying structure figured out and fabricated. I suppose you need the pro willing to let you do it yourself then sign off. Looks like a cool project.
MooneyDriver78
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WannFly
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There is a minimum distance for G5? mine is going in now and there is no space between the two. Is there a requirement?
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My total plan is 2 g5, gfc500. Then a gma345 audio panel and a gtn 650 with ga35. Remove adf, move transponder back to stack. G5's will replace current AI and DG. Remove vacuum system. Someday get a engine analyser to put in adf hole.
What am I missing? Goal is to have a very solid vfr panel.
What am I missing? Goal is to have a very solid vfr panel.
MooneyDriver78
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Yes, the holes have to be 3.6” center to center minimum, get latest (v11) of installation guide, your panel must be close to vertical and a certain thickness as well. It will need to pass a vibration test after installation (if the panel mounts are old, now would be a good time to replace them, while you have everything apart).
WannFly
Final Approach
Thanks. I will discuss this with my avionics guy. I am hoping he already took note of this.
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AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Why “VFR” panel? The 182 is a very capable and stable go places machine, so an IFR panel would be more desirable for you and a future buyer. Don’t hamstring yourself with VFR only.
For the audio panel, my recommendation is the PS Engineering panels over the Garmin ones. More utility and the tech service from them is nothing short of phenomenal.
I'm thinking it will be awhile before IFR training happens. As far as a future owner, well I hope to keep this 182 till I can't fly anymore, so my estate can worry about that. LOl. Do I need to plan for anything else than what i have listed to be descent IFR?
I will definitely get the PS audio panel.
Which one should I be looking at? I need 4 place intercom, music input, if Im going to loose the ADF, maybe a XM portable. Any other ideas?
I will definitely get the PS audio panel.
Which one should I be looking at? I need 4 place intercom, music input, if Im going to loose the ADF, maybe a XM portable. Any other ideas?
cgrab
Pattern Altitude
Are you planning to have ADS-B out?
The PMA-4000 will meet your audio panel needs for less than 1 AMU.
The PMA-4000 will meet your audio panel needs for less than 1 AMU.
AggieMike88
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The PSE audio panel will handle intercom duties.
XM is useful, but optional. Many are okay with ADS-B in.
As far as what else you need? Look at FAR §91.205: Instrument and equipment requirements... but you already knew that, right?
XM is useful, but optional. Many are okay with ADS-B in.
As far as what else you need? Look at FAR §91.205: Instrument and equipment requirements... but you already knew that, right?
Contrarian? We’ve ALL said “electric trim if you can afford it with an AP”, so far.
One thing many of us have in our heads is that until this Garmin AP came out, the entire autopilot was going to cost over $10K more at a minimum, anyway. Just to even get one.
Everything was god awful expensive about autopilots for normal certification aircraft until very recently anyway. And even when they worked most of those older APs still sucked.
And THEN you paid for GPSS on top of that.
So ... $4K more to “do it right” still seems like a “bargain” to us. The Garmin is still “a lot of money” but just a couple years ago you’d be taking out a second mortgage to S-TEC.
Anyone new to this, the electric trim looks like a “big” add on chunk on the price. Anyone old, we’re like.... pfffft. Cheap! Hahaha. Kinda.
I’m also just freaking amazed at how so many places can’t seem to troubleshoot the older ones.
An aircraft I know went to Tulsa recently to finally nail down why the electric pitch trim and AP were intermittent. The thing has been looked at by a NUMBER of places and people.
Autopilot Central in Tulsa found...
Someone had driven a screw through something and into the electric pitch trim cabling.
Intermittent found. Ya think?!
Took like a day from what I heard. Others have messed with it for days. Multiple others.
Where have basic electronics troubleshooting skills gone?!?! Good lord.
Intermittent: Check connectors and then FOLLOW the cable everyplace you can see where it routes! LOOK at the damned thing.
C’mon technicians! Sheesh.
Anyway off on a tangent/rant there. Unbelievable. I hope those who couldn’t find that problem didn’t bill for the time they CLAIMED to be LOOKING at/for the problem.
That kind of stuff will drive you batty as an owner. Just stark raving batty when you find out multiple people didn’t find something that obvious.
ARINC has a couple of documents that should be required reading for aviation technicians and aircraft owners.
ARINC Report 431 "No Fault Found - A Case Study" and ARINC 672 "Guidelines for the Reduction of No Fault Found"
MajorTurbulence
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This is getting repetitive, but if your putting in 2 G5s and expect to be IFR legal, where's your (primary)backup AI. You'll need one if your removing your vacuum system with its associated vacuum AI.
bnt83
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If a guy installs two G5s, in the attitude and direction gyro locations, per Garmin FAA STC SA01818WI, they both can be tossed with the vacuum pump, none are required to be retained. In the OP's case that existing autopilot may need to be deactivated to toss both gyros.
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MajorTurbulence
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Thanks for the documentation. I've gotten a few disparate facts mixed up, So you're right. I needed my backup AI by STC for my Aspen, and separately to give attitude info to my autopilot. This is not the OPs situation.