Operation Butt Freeze

[azure]

Nate, I cringed the whole time reading about that lesson of yours with Jer. For me, it would have been over the instant the CFI grabbed the controls in the flare. NO one else does that in my plane unless the situation really needs saving. If you grab the yoke when I'm flying, you had better be right. If you're not, we taxi to parking and you get out. No exceptions.

Hope you find someone local you can really work with ASAP.

 

[murphey]

Jer will fly in private aircraft but I literally had to sign a contract that I'm acting 100% PIC before we started the lesson tonight. A full-pager with briefing info about his mountain flight and various other stuff on it that didn't apply to this flight at all other than the PIC clause.

I've run into this with another CFII (but not a signed contract). It happens when the CFI/I has been named in a lawsuit involving a previous student. They become incredibly paranoid when flying in a student's aircraft.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Nate, if you want I can give you my CFII's contact info. He has a full time job and does the instructing on the side. No barking, just pre-brief, do it, screw up and de-brief. It worked really well for me. (I'm thinking we probably have similar learning styles)
Also he had no issues flying in my plane.

 

[murphey]

Nate, if you want I can give you my CFII's contact info. He has a full time job and does the instructing on the side. No barking, just pre-brief, do it, screw up and de-brief. It worked really well for me. (I'm thinking we probably have similar learning styles)
Also he had no issues flying in my plane.

Send it to me, too.

 

[TMetzinger]

I also found it painful to read about the lesson with Jer\. I think a first lesson with a new instructor for someone going for an additonal rating or endorsement (i.e. instrument, commercial, tailwheel, etc) really needs to be a fairly lengthy pre-brief, a flight where the instructor asks the student to demonstrate stuff and just takes notes, and then a lengthy de-brief.

The pre-brief is needed to fully understand each other's goals and to set reasonable expectations, and to agree on how the flights will be conducted. You'll also get a feel for each other's styles and hopefully determine if/how to communicate effectively.

The flight is there for the instructor to evaluate the student's skills and knowledge, and to observe the methods he uses. There are multiple ways to accomplish things in aviation, and I don't think it's a good idea to insist that one way is the only right way. I never used the 5Ts as a mnemonic as an instrument pilot, but I still had to be able to execute a procedure turn properly. The only time where "you WILL do it THIS way" makes sense to me is when someone is being trained to be an interchangeable part - military and airline flying come to mind and there are definite benefits for the military or airline organization to doing it this way.

The post-flight debrief is where the instructor shares his evaluation of the student and the student shares his evaluation of the instructor. Egos need to be checked at the door as much as possible, and hopefully you reach an understanding. If not, then this pairing is probably not right for you.

I don't have a wealth of experience instructing in the air, so I'm frankly basing these thoughts on what I've learned from other CFIs I've known who DO have the experience. They're my goals for how I want to conduct myself as an instructor.

So, Nate, I didn't get the impression that you and Jer\ had a good heart-to-heart talk about your training at any time. If this is the case, I suggest you give that a shot before heading off to another instructor.

 

[jason]

<snip>

Back inbound Jer is now barking about the Five Ts out loud. Jesse's admittedly not a fan of that.

<snip>

To clarify, Jesse has no issues with the five Ts, he just doesn't mandate them.

You have to be able to get through what you need to get through and not miss anything. If you can't do that, he works with you to find a procedure to help you remember. If it ends up being the five Ts, then more power to you.

 

[denverpilot]

Catching up on answering some questions and some thoughts.

Nice writeup! Looks like you got a lot done in a short span of time. Which FBO did you use? I went to Silver Hawk a few weeks ago. They were like a racing pit.

Yes, Silverhawk. Super nice people, too.

Nate, two words: call Bowman (no barking at all and he really does want you to get the rating).

May do this.

either get a new CFII or start the pre-flight briefing with "you-STFU unless something dangerous is happening, I have my own way of doing things that I like and don't need you screwing with"

Tony, I'm like that once I know I'm performing to standards. Right now, I'm not there so I am deferring to the Instructor. I'm starting to realize that some of this is left-overs from Private and BFR training over the years... sit there, shut up and let the Instructor talk. The Instrument is subtly different... you're the PIC, it's appropriate to say "no" sometimes. I haven't figured out when. I've certainly read the accident reports where no one knew who was flying the damn plane, and that landing incident really had me thinking about those. I'm sitting there questioning what/why the Instructor is doing something or what they're trying to show me instead of just announcing my intentions and flying it. During a landing is no time to have a disagreement about aircraft control. I've done HOW many landings in this aircraft??? I have no idea why I even let him jack with me like that. It should have been a LOUDLY announced GO AROUND and NOT put the hood back down before we straightened out what just happened.

I'm also happy to be safety pilot on weekends.

May take you up on that. Jer cautioned against utilizing Private non-IR pilots as Safety Pilots. I think you're the first local Instrument pilot I know who's offered that. I'd also love to see you fly your airplane, it'd help me visualize it a lot better I think.

Personally, I think it's unproductive to overload the student and bark at them about their technique when it's obvious they are already behind. Also, this being the first lesson with a new instructor, it would have been nice if it had been more of a observation session to see what he already knew.

Not Jer/'s style, he's gonna throw you into the fire and make you work your way up to proficiency.

Well, there's always Bruce H.

[ducking and running as fast as possible!!!]

I have no problems with Bruce, and he did an excellent job on my Mountain check-out/long X-C. He's very thorough on ground instruction, and had a lot of great insights in the rocks.

He's got more hours up there by a factor of ten than I have in my whole logbook, so I have no complaints flying with him.

He's getting a little forgetful and repeats things but reinforcement isn't a bad thing. I've never considered using him for the Instrument just because I don't want to pay for the repetition. No offense to him.

If it's VFR day, I can safety pilot while you're under the hood. I know most of the approaches along the Front Range.

Jer/ had some big reservations about using a Private Pilot to act as Safety Pilot. They weren't very well defined other than "situational awareness", so I'd consider it on a good VFR day. Not at night. If Instructors here feel that's not appropriate, feel free to say something.

We need to get Jesse out here to finish you up, and me, too. Drew's had me on his DPE "checkride to-do" list for years (no, I'm not kidding - since 2007).

Yeah, well... that's a lot to ask of Jesse. I'd head back to Nebraska before I'd even think of doing that to him. Heck, he's giving up half his life when folks show up to do these crazy schedules as it is. I really appreciated all the time he gave me in the week and a half I was there.

Nate, I cringed the whole time reading about that lesson of yours with Jer. For me, it would have been over the instant the CFI grabbed the controls in the flare. NO one else does that in my plane unless the situation really needs saving. If you grab the yoke when I'm flying, you had better be right. If you're not, we taxi to parking and you get out. No exceptions.

Hope you find someone local you can really work with ASAP.

After sleeping on it and thinking about it some more, that's probably the biggest lesson from last night... PIC. I think I've just learned my lesson on taking someone's fingers off if they ever reach for my controls ever again... especially if I'm behind the airplane.

VFR, pretty day, looking outside enjoying the view, you mess with my stuff I'll probably tell you nicely not to do it. Under the hood, at night, behind the airplane... you're going to lose a finger or two from now on.

I don't care if you're Bob Hoover himself. If it turns into a fight, we're landing and you're getting out.

In CAP flights I *always* ask before touching anything on the pilot's setup. I also verbally announce what I'm setting and why and give them a few seconds to think about it before reaching for anything. We do crew-coordination to some extent because there's a lot of other radio "busywork" with the additional radios, etc... but I would NEVER twist someone else's aviation Comm radio dial without asking first. On the other radios, the guy in the right seat is technically responsible for those, but I still announce any changes and don't use those any time the pilot is under a high workload.

Nate, if you want I can give you my CFII's contact info. He has a full time job and does the instructing on the side. No barking, just pre-brief, do it, screw up and de-brief. It worked really well for me. (I'm thinking we probably have similar learning styles)
Also he had no issues flying in my plane.

Fire a PM... I'm open to anything right now.

I also found it painful to read about the lesson with Jer\. I think a first lesson with a new instructor for someone going for an additonal rating or endorsement (i.e. instrument, commercial, tailwheel, etc) really needs to be a fairly lengthy pre-brief, a flight where the instructor asks the student to demonstrate stuff and just takes notes, and then a lengthy de-brief.

I would have appreciated that. In fact, not doing it made me uncomfortable right from the start, but I didn't verbalize it... the student is trying to feel out the instructor just as much as the other way around.

I could not tell if we were jumping in and doing instruction, or if this was a "throw stuff at you until you fail" (which I'm fine with if that's the goal of the flight to force some learning and humble you up a bit... right now I'm about as humble as someone can get... probably to the point where I'm questioning my ability to STAY ahead of the airplane), or if this is a "let me walk you through my procedures" (which would have also been appreciated, and MIGHT be how Jer/ saw the flight anyway).

The pre-brief is needed to fully understand each other's goals and to set reasonable expectations, and to agree on how the flights will be conducted. You'll also get a feel for each other's styles and hopefully determine if/how to communicate effectively.

Yup.

The flight is there for the instructor to evaluate the student's skills and knowledge, and to observe the methods he uses. There are multiple ways to accomplish things in aviation, and I don't think it's a good idea to insist that one way is the only right way. I never used the 5Ts as a mnemonic as an instrument pilot, but I still had to be able to execute a procedure turn properly. The only time where "you WILL do it THIS way" makes sense to me is when someone is being trained to be an interchangeable part - military and airline flying come to mind and there are definite benefits for the military or airline organization to doing it this way.

Understand. Jer/'s pretty much (at least after two flights with him, one in the back seat and one in the front seat) a "my way or the highway" type of Instructor.

If there were a period of flying it my way, and then moving more toward his way -- I could live with that. But jumping straight from one method to another didn't work well for me.

The post-flight debrief is where the instructor shares his evaluation of the student and the student shares his evaluation of the instructor. Egos need to be checked at the door as much as possible, and hopefully you reach an understanding. If not, then this pairing is probably not right for you.

I didn't get the impression he wanted my feedback, and I respectfully just said "Thanks" and "I needed the workout" and left it at that. Then I got chastised for the VFR flight plan, and I was done with him at that point. Some of that comes from CAP... if you're going 50, you're filing. I know this. I get the impression he's a hard-fast rule guy, which is fine... but I'm not filing to go from FNL to APA unless something's requiring me to. I always utilize FF on that route (too many VFR aircraft crammed on the west side of I-25 and crossing the route headed for Boulder and Longmont) and adding a flight plan to that route isn't reducing risk in any significant way.

I don't have a wealth of experience instructing in the air, so I'm frankly basing these thoughts on what I've learned from other CFIs I've known who DO have the experience. They're my goals for how I want to conduct myself as an instructor.

So, Nate, I didn't get the impression that you and Jer\ had a good heart-to-heart talk about your training at any time. If this is the case, I suggest you give that a shot before heading off to another instructor.

Right now, I'm not sure I feel like paying someone who didn't take the time to do that right off the bat... hopefully that doesn't sound big-headed... but it's a waste of money.

I'm also not sure I want to pay to have someone completely change what I was doing technique-wise. Trust me, I *like* learning new techniques, and even Jer/ said he'll throw various techniques at a student until something "clicks" with that person, but the whole thing about the rudder turns really got me cranky. I'll go out and figure out those on my own LATER and be able to fly them if I run into someone again down the road who DEMANDS them. That's fine.

I should go out VFR and learn how to fly the airplane around all cross-coordinated and stop at very small heading changes, but doing it coming down final on an ILS in an airplane that needs quite a bit of opposite aileron pressure to make that happen, when I'd never done it before, was just throwing me for a loop. The OPINION coming from the right seat that this was the ONLY way to do it, made me angry and confused.

My hands and feet would start something coordinated, he'd bark "wings level! peddle turns only!" my feet and hands would over-control to something I had to GUESS at for pressures for the cross-control, then almost sub-consciously my feet and butt would say "you're skidding" and put the opposite control pressures back to coordinated back in, and back and forth... imagine what this does to the localizer needle.

It was complete crap.

To be fair to Jer/, taking on someone else's student must be a bit of a nightmare for you CFIs.

Too many different techniques in my head, too much information, trying to sort it all out and make it jive with the Instructor in the airplane TODAY, is a problem for me to deal with.

I can't imagine what it must be like for you guys.

There were good things about last night... don't get me wrong. Jer/'s discussion of "mass in motion" and how things don't take effect instantly was good. His berating all the minor squawks on the aircraft was accurate but I'm already grumpy about those. The airplane is BUSY right now... just like I am, and I DID peek at the shop at KAPA yesterday when I went to fuel it up, and they had airplanes overflowing onto the ramp out front... getting it scheduled isn't going to be as simple as it might be up in KFNL.

Getting me back to hammering the checklist... good. (Not that I kept up enough to do it.)

Various other things... good.

Heck, even the info about the throttle stop is good learning... it was just done at a weird time.

This whole process has been the hardest thing I've attempted in a decade... easily. I know I'll come out of it a better pilot. I already see that.

(Noticing you're one or two degrees off of heading in VFR cruise via the DG is kinda funny the first time you find yourself correcting it...)

Enough typing... something I've typed here I'm sure would be misconstrued or could even make Jer/ look bad -- that is NOT my intention. I'm sharing the thought process going on in my head, so folks here can see it and learn from it as a community -- but that doesn't mean that ANY of it is accurate.

There's two sides to every story.

 

[jjflys]

Wow Nate, sorry to hear about your experience. As a newly minted private pilot who went through a couple instructors before one finally clicked I understand your frustration. For me it was always frustrating to change the way I flew to please instructor A and then be told by instructor B that it was all wrong, do it this way. This was on everything from crosswind technique to proper preflight. For an industry that always boasts about standardization there seems to be no standards when it comes to instruction. Lucky for me I have finally found a CFII that works well for me, my schedule, learning style, etc.

I can also vouch for John Bowman if he will fly with you in your plane. He seems like a cool guy and I haven't heard anything but good things about him. I have learned a ton from just talking to him although I haven't flown with him personally yet.




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[jesse]

I've been pretty swamped and haven't had much time to comment as much as I'd like on this discussion - but I just can't help it at this point. So, here we go...

Back inbound Jer is now barking about the Five Ts out loud. Jesse's admittedly not a fan of that.

I have nothing set in stone regarding the Ts. I recognize that as an instructor I need to teach different students in different manners. When David was here I stuck the T's on his panel using a post it note.

My instruction technique varies dramatically depending on the student because I recognize that different people have different personalities and learn in different manners. I strive to figure out each student and constantly adjust to accommodate their needs.

I manage to find my way back to the ILS 33 somehow and do an absolutely awful job of shooting it. Jer's barking the whole time about wings level rudder-only turns. I've never done that ever. Everything with Jesse was about small corrections, learning to make them really small, and coordinated flight.

I've yet to find a situation where it makes more sense to stomp on rudder pedals to make turns. This is really airplane specific and many will have a heavy tendency to return to the original heading making your uncoordinated effort worthless. In fact, you have to stomp hard enough to go PAST the desired heading so that when it comes back after releasing the rudder it'll end up where you want.

No thanks, couple the ailerons to the localizer needle and don't let it move. Master this and you'll be able to track an ILS to landing with nothing but the CDI - gyro free. Notice small changes and correct them instantly. You'll be busy - but you should be.

Land, flaps up, Jer starts barking about not touching anything until past the line and off the runway. Sigh. More complaints about the checklist.

This is once again airplane specific. If you were flying around in a retract I'd have some comments about making configuration changes on the move.

either get a new CFII or start the pre-flight briefing with "you-STFU unless something dangerous is happening, I have my own way of doing things that I like and don't need you screwing with"

Well said Tony.

This. It's also hard to switch instructors midstream especially if they have very differing styles and you were happy with the first one. It doesn't sound like Nate and Jer/ were even close to being on the same page so I would suggest to Nate that he find someone else. Personally, I think it's unproductive to overload the student and bark at them about their technique when it's obvious they are already behind. Also, this being the first lesson with a new instructor, it would have been nice if it had been more of a observation session to see what he already knew.

Sometimes I have to load students up to the poitn where they break - because I need to see where that point is and I want them to know how to recover from mental defeat. But you've got to give them a breather.

It's ABSOLUTELY ridiclous to require a guy that is falling further and further behind the airplane to go FASTER. Why go faster then 90 knots if you can't handle it? I teach people how to RECOVER from being over-loaded and that means you slow down and you THINK.

Pilots will get confused. They will fall behind. When that happens they will fall back to their training for how to recover from such a situation. Going faster and making things harder most certainly should not be the response.

Nate, I cringed the whole time reading about that lesson of yours with Jer. For me, it would have been over the instant the CFI grabbed the controls in the flare. NO one else does that in my plane unless the situation really needs saving. If you grab the yoke when I'm flying, you had better be right. If you're not, we taxi to parking and you get out. No exceptions.

This really is a tough issue. I can feel airplane energy pretty well and really don't touch a thing unless it absolutely has to happen like RIGHT NOW. In that case, I'm going to protect myself and my certificate. It sure doesn't happen very often though and I'll let someone make a bad landing as long as it's not putting me or the bird at risk. I don't recall an instance of where I ever felt any desire what-so-ever to touch Nate's yoke during the landing or takeoff phase of the 30 hours he spent here. That includes a lot of slow landings - but I have a pretty good feeling for how slow a 182 can fly and I don't pay any attention to the airspeed indicator.

Nate's panel makes it pretty difficult for a right seat instructor to see the instruments. The values on the airspeed indicator aren't visible what-so-ever so it's possible that Jer's inability to see the values caused him to respond when it wasn't needed. I wasn't there and I won't pass judgement on his decision.

The pre-brief is needed to fully understand each other's goals and to set reasonable expectations

I cannot imagine starting a lesson without SOME form of pre-brief and on my first flight with a student it's going to take some time.

After sleeping on it and thinking about it some more, that's probably the biggest lesson from last night... PIC. I think I've just learned my lesson on taking someone's fingers off if they ever reach for my controls ever again... especially if I'm behind the airplane.

Do you recall the moment I applied force on your yoke? (had nothing to do with takeoff or landing)

In CAP flights I *always* ask before touching anything on the pilot's setup

That is the ideal scenario but sometimes there simply isn't time for it.

Understand. Jer/'s pretty much (at least after two flights with him, one in the back seat and one in the front seat) a "my way or the highway" type of Instructor.

That's too bad. It sounds like he has a lot of knowledge and he could help a lot more pilots and be a more effective instructor if he understood how to adapt.

To be fair to Jer/, taking on someone else's student must be a bit of a nightmare for you CFIs.

Too many different techniques in my head, too much information, trying to sort it all out and make it jive with the Instructor in the airplane TODAY, is a problem for me to deal with.

I can't imagine what it must be like for you guys.

I choose my battles and I treat different students differently. Students I've taught from DAY one do everything just like I'd prefer.

I DO recognize that students I *haven't* taught from day one will operate in a manner different than I do. I absolutely do not force my techinques on them unless I feel that technique would improve their ability greatly. I simply do not care how you choose to poke frequencies in your radio. If it appears your method works for you, then as far as I'm concerned, that's how you should be doing it -- regardless of how I'd do it.

For example, you tend to alternate between one radio or the other generally starting with one on the ground then switching to the other when taking the air. Whereas I tend to do all transmitting on one radio and use the other for monitoring various things or talking to FSS. I never did try to force that on you, nor did I even mention it, because I saw that your method worked for you.

You're not a 5 hour student pilot that has no idea how anything works. You do not need all of your methods of operation changed and doing so will not help you learn. You've had several hundred hours of aviating to discover what works for you.

 

[Everskyward]

It's ABSOLUTELY ridiclous to require a guy that is falling further and further behind the airplane to go FASTER. Why go faster then 90 knots if you can't handle it? I teach people how to RECOVER from being over-loaded and that means you slow down and you THINK.

And from a student's perspective they need to learn how to tell the CFI to slow down if they are not understanding something. My favorite words are "standby" and "could you say that again" when I don't understand something that someone is trying to teach me or they are trying to get me to go faster than I'm able to go. You don't learn very much as someone's voice-activated autopilot. You need to be able to reason through what you are doing. Sometimes it seems to the instructor that the student is taking a long time to figure something out but that's just the way it is. It's also much easier to recognize someone else's mistakes than to see your own.

 

[DavidWhite]

I didnt understand what you said when the stall fences "sing" because I never heard them before, but I slowed down to 55 on final and boy they "sing" pretty good. Sounds alot like the cloud whistle.

 

[murphey]

Enough typing... something I've typed here I'm sure would be misconstrued or could even make Jer/ look bad -- that is NOT my intention. I'm sharing the thought process going on in my head, so folks here can see it and learn from it as a community -- but that doesn't mean that ANY of it is accurate.

There's two sides to every story.

On the trip out to Edwards, Jer/ was right seat & there was another ATP in the back. Going past Sedona the back seat went "Jer/, stop it. You're freaking her out and annoying me!" when he started demonstrating mountain flying technique about 200 AGL the side of the mountains.

On the other hand, I really did enjoy the 10 hours of practical mountain flying examples I didn't pay for...

 

[murphey]

My instruction technique varies dramatically depending on the student because I recognize that different people have different personalities and learn in different manners. I strive to figure out each student and constantly adjust to accommodate their needs.

I'm sold. Let's get a few months into the new year, and some nicer weather, and I'll put the dog in the kennel and I'm ready to sign up for the Jesse Instrument Training Program!

Let's see now....retake the written, get the pitot/static check, save up for fuel, find out why brand new cylinder #3 is running incredibly hot ....

Yup, I can do it whenever Jesse decides he's willing to take on someone marginally coordinated with an extreme apprehension of not being able to see outside when under the hood but really enjoys benign IMC (meaning fog - no ice, no Tstorms, etc).

Let's be honest - I'm a wimp.

Cash, check, gold bearer bonds?

 

[denverpilot]

I've been pretty swamped and haven't had much time to comment as much as I'd like on this discussion - but I just can't help it at this point. So, here we go...

I knew you'd chime in eventually... and judging by the signs that things were getting busier for you at work and in "real life" that I was delaying taking up all of your time, I'm chuckling at the "I just can't help it" comment. Thanks again for taking all the time.

I have nothing set in stone regarding the Ts. I recognize that as an instructor I need to teach different students in different manners. When David was here I stuck the T's on his panel using a post it note.

And honestly I'm doing them in my head when I'm not behind. I don't find it a bad technique at all. The part I couldn't keep up with last night was verbalizing them out-loud.

That's the part Jer/ was demanding and I couldn't get it out of my mouth. Not while I was that far behind, anyway.

My instruction technique varies dramatically depending on the student because I recognize that different people have different personalities and learn in different manners. I strive to figure out each student and constantly adjust to accommodate their needs.

I bet Jer/'s does too... I don't want to make it sound like it doesn't. I am just sharing how it *felt*...

I've yet to find a situation where it makes more sense to stomp on rudder pedals to make turns. This is really airplane specific and many will have a heavy tendency to return to the original heading making your uncoordinated effort worthless. In fact, you have to stomp hard enough to go PAST the desired heading so that when it comes back after releasing the rudder it'll end up where you want.

No thanks, couple the ailerons to the localizer needle and don't let it move. Master this and you'll be able to track an ILS to landing with nothing but the CDI - gyro free. Notice small changes and correct them instantly. You'll be busy - but you should be.

And I bought into this "philosophy" as you taught it... when I arrived in Lincoln I thought I could fly an ILS with just headings... you proved to me that didn't work as you got closer in.

I also couldn't verbalize it, but you just nailed what the problem was last night... the tendency to go back to the original heading with the rudder turns. I wasn't using even CLOSE to enough rudder to overcome that. I was trying to figure out how much to use and got about three or four good stabs at it and the approach was over, and I was way off the localizer.

I'll give Jer/ credit on one item here... he suggested that during such activity that I use continuous forward pressure on BOTH rudder pedals throughout the approach... gives a better "feel" in the feet for what's going on. I was doing the "no pressure on the unused foot" technique as I always have... I tried the forward pressure thing on the ground, and I like the feel, but I'd need practice. I remember one glider instructor also recommending this long long long ago. (And Jer/'s a glider instructor too...)

Let me throw another one in here... part of that "feel" I assume is also sounds, and the Lightspeeds are really screwing me up there. I couldn't hear the usual airspeed changes, etc...

I'm sure they're there, but it's a completely different sound than when using my DC headclamps.

I think I really need to go back to the DCs for the moment and that would help a lot. Changes aren't a good idea right at the moment.

I played with turning the Lightspeed ANR on and off on the way home, and it still doesn't sound quite the same. I'm REALLY going to like ANR in the long run, but I think the DCs are going back on my head for the time being.

I'll work on "transitioning" to the Lightspeeds under the hood later.

This is once again airplane specific. If you were flying around in a retract I'd have some comments about making configuration changes on the move.

Again to be fair, Jer/ also said this. And I remember it from my time in the Mooney and the 172RG. His quote was, "The next STEP after Instruments is retracts and you need to leave things alone on the runway." I get it. And I also know the dangers of building muscle memory and habits that will have to be broken if I do that, but there's some assumptions involved with his statement...

A) Am I really going to be flying retracts again in the future? With the industry's move to the latest "desirable" aircraft for personal transportation being NON-retracts and outperforming the retracts hands-down... probably not... unless I decide to chase the Commercial for some reason.

B) Am I really planning on "the next step" right now? I mean really? I'm a recreational pilot. Stepping up to retracts and multis and whatever... isn't in the budget for personal flight, and likely isn't in the planning for any aviation goals my the near future at all. The only possible exception to that is maybe a Commercial ticket. Kent's stories of jumping in jets and wandering the Wisconsin countryside on a whim aside, I don't see a need for it. I have zero plans to make a living in an airplane right now.

If that changes, I'll let some instructor slap my hand off the flap handle about a hundred times in a row and break my habit of retracting them, but I'm very comfortable doing it in the 182. It probably is a bad habit, but it simply doesn't apply right now. Grab a ruler and smack my knuckles later, I'm fine with it.

Sometimes I have to load students up to the poitn where they break - because I need to see where that point is and I want them to know how to recover from mental defeat. But you've got to give them a breather.

It's ABSOLUTELY ridiclous to require a guy that is falling further and further behind the airplane to go FASTER. Why go faster then 90 knots if you can't handle it? I teach people how to RECOVER from being over-loaded and that means you slow down and you THINK.

Pilots will get confused. They will fall behind. When that happens they will fall back to their training for how to recover from such a situation. Going faster and making things harder most certainly should not be the response.

And honestly, I was falling back to my training from working with you -- I was prepared to fly that damn airplane around half of Northern Colorado at 90 knots for two hours if it meant I could get caught up and stay caught up.

Once we shoved the power up, it just added to the confusion. The "if we don't speed up we're never going to get there" comment just didn't make any cognitive sense to me... I was thinking, "If I don't get ahead of this airplane we'll get to the crash site faster."

This really is a tough issue. I can feel airplane energy pretty well and really don't touch a thing unless it absolutely has to happen like RIGHT NOW. In that case, I'm going to protect myself and my certificate. It sure doesn't happen very often though and I'll let someone make a bad landing as long as it's not putting me or the bird at risk. I don't recall an instance of where I ever felt any desire what-so-ever to touch Nate's yoke during the landing or takeoff phase of the 30 hours he spent here. That includes a lot of slow landings - but I have a pretty good feeling for how slow a 182 can fly and I don't pay any attention to the airspeed indicator.

Nate's panel makes it pretty difficult for a right seat instructor to see the instruments. The values on the airspeed indicator aren't visible what-so-ever so it's possible that Jer's inability to see the values caused him to respond when it wasn't needed. I wasn't there and I won't pass judgement on his decision.

I also completely understand why it happened. I want Jer/ to see slow flight in the aircraft before any further flights, if there are any.

You got to see it the first night (and got to laugh at me trying to hold it level) at 30 knots or so, for 20 minutes or more.

(Time compression -- I have no idea how long we actually did that. Felt like about three years, to me! Ha!)

I know we eventually decided that "slow flight" under the hood had to be flown faster because the airplane would wallow back and forth still under control but requiring full control inputs to get it level again and when it wasn't level, I couldn't hold a heading.

We ended up learning that something like 45 knots -0 +5 seemed to work very well, kept the horn on, and the airplane still had nice positive roll control. Any pitch up at 45 and it would rapidly bleed to 35 and the roll one direction or the other would start. I'm sure there's some superman pilot out there (maybe even Jesse or Jer/) who could hold 35 knots in my airplane with the engine roaring and hold heading under the hood, but I'm definitely not there yet, and let's get real... getting that slow in IMC would be ridiculous and reckless -- but it's quite fun VMC out in the practice area!!

I cannot imagine starting a lesson without SOME form of pre-brief and on my first flight with a student it's going to take some time.

Yeah, I can't figure that one out. Perhaps Jer/ wanted to see me fly to see just how much work we had to do. I don't know. Again, I want to be fair to him.

Do you recall the moment I applied force on your yoke? (had nothing to do with takeoff or landing)

No. In fact, thinking back I didn't know you even did... maybe during a climb-out?

I remember plenty of times where you had to hint at which axis of flight was going completely out of whack as my scan broke down completely, and times where that one would lead to the next one breaking down, and the next... and the next... (HAHAHA... not really funny, but it was part of my learning process, so I'll own up to it...).

You probably wondered at times if I'd ever "get it". I was squarely back in that mode last night and really cranky about it. I think I'm going to have nightmares about the phrase, "Where are you going?" for years to come after this training experience... probably rightly so.

That's too bad. It sounds like he has a lot of knowledge and he could help a lot more pilots and be a more effective instructor if he understood how to adapt.

I DON'T want to make it sound like he can't. Not at all.

This discussion is almost unfair to him at this point, and I'm somewhat wondering if I should ask him to join in.

There's been enough written that he could be completely insulted by my comments so far if they're not accurate to what he was doing or thinking or setting up for later lessons.

Heck, maybe he's already reading. That'd be funny. Or embarrassing. I don't know which.

I'm very cognizant that I'm putting this out there on the line for all to see... struggles and all.

I think it's good for us to document our struggles, and I enjoy reading other's posts about theirs... but there's a downside... people aren't used to having documented proof of how they saw things or felt thrown in their face years later, and there's a lot of misunderstandings brought on by all this technology.

All I can say in defense of posting all these thoughts is, "I gotta be meeeeeee.... I gotta be meeeeeee..."

(Remember the Far Side cartoon of the penguin in the middle of a huge flock of penguins who all look the same, singing that? Yeah...)

I choose my battles and I treat different students differently. Students I've taught from DAY one do everything just like I'd prefer.

I DO recognize that students I *haven't* taught from day one will operate in a manner different than I do. I absolutely do not force my techinques on them unless I feel that technique would improve their ability greatly. I simply do not care how you choose to poke frequencies in your radio. If it appears your method works for you, then as far as I'm concerned, that's how you should be doing it -- regardless of how I'd do it.

For example, you tend to alternate between one radio or the other generally starting with one on the ground then switching to the other when taking the air. Whereas I tend to do all transmitting on one radio and use the other for monitoring various things or talking to FSS. I never did try to force that on you, nor did I even mention it, because I saw that your method worked for you.

You're not a 5 hour student pilot that has no idea how anything works. You do not need all of your methods of operation changed and doing so will not help you learn. You've had several hundred hours of aviating to discover what works for you.

Appreciate that. I like my radios just the way I did 'em.

I don't remember why or where I learned that technique, but I barely remember something way back in my brain that by doing it that way, I've not only listened on both radios but also transmitted on both of them BEFORE leaving the ground, and if something is wrong with a transmitter, it'll be known before takeoff.

Of course, your method would also tell if #1 had a bad transmitter, and the likelihood of #2 ALSO having one is about zero, especially if it rarely gets used!

So either works and the theory is blown. But that's the theory that stuck in my head sometime back. Don't remember why.

I also have a weird habit of putting CTAF frequencies in the bottom radio but "real" controller frequencies in the top. Did you notice that, or was I so bad at setting up for CTAF calls that I never got it set that way?

I do not know where that CTAF habit came from at all. I suspect it's something subconscious to keep ATC segregated from CTAF so I don't make a CTAF announcement on ATC, but I think I did that once anyway while we were flying... because I forgot to flip the COM1/2 switch.

Maybe more than once. So perhaps that another technique that's actually "busted" but stuck in my head for some reason.

Jer/ did something I don't remember you asking of me, which was interesting... Identify the DME. Hmm... okay. Certainly technically correct.

More Morse Code... YAY! Ha.

Alright, enough over-analyzing... I could do this all week...

I didnt understand what you said when the stall fences "sing" because I never heard them before, but I slowed down to 55 on final and boy they "sing" pretty good. Sounds alot like the cloud whistle.

YEP!!! Okay funny story from Jesse and I's flying... the Cessna cloud whistle started, and Jesse pointed it out (I didn't notice it at first). I was shocked.

I HONESTLY thought the whole cloud whistle thread was just all you PoA'ers setting us newbies up for a Snipe Hunt. I told Jesse that and he started laughing.

Yes, Cessnas really do whistle in the clouds. It's eerie.

And yep... the stall fences and droopy ailerons make a similar sound as you pitch to about right where yours does... 55 knots or so. It sounds a little more like a "sucking" sound than the cloud whistle. Air trying to detach from the wing, but getting blocked by the fences or hitting the tops of them where the most noise would be transmitted to the airframe, I assume.

I typically pitch right to where I *hear* that start and then don't pitch ANY higher during the over-the-fence portion of the landing.

I don't even have to look at the AS indicator to know the speed at that point.

Any harder pull, it gets louder and the sink rate goes up. Relaxation of back pressure, it fades away. You can hold that speed all day long without looking at the ASI by just listening. (I've also practiced it at altitude, and recommend that...)

If I pitch to that speed by sound, and then let the aircraft fly down to the runway, all it takes is a tug to get the horn to come right on at the flare and if the power at THIS altitude is all the way out, it'll stop flying right this second when you pull past landing attitude... therefore sometimes I add just a blip of power to arrest that sink rate here. Unfortunately that built a bad habit for down lower, and a couple times I was just as surprised as Jesse when I found myself leveled off at a very slow speed with a touch of power in and "hovering" the landings. Jesse figured it out faster than I did... "Leave the power out."

But, but, but!!!... it'll plop on if I do that! (My brain was thinking...). After ballooning ANOTHER landing I decided, "He's probably right, you know... he is an instructor after all... you idiot..." and pulled the power and left it off...

HEY! Whaddaya-know! It landed!

I REALLY REALLY REALLY want Jesse to visit sometime and see the takeoff, climb, and landing speeds here in my airplane in Denver sometime. The amount of runway I chewed up launching last night even had me thinking, "Where's all the power?" I knew the numbers in my head, and it lifted off right where it always does on Runway 10 departing KAPA... but after a week at super low DA, I had already come to expect quicker takeoffs. It also messed with my climb out speeds on the missed approaches last night. I was sloooooow... trying to get more than 600 FPM out of it.

One problem down in Lincoln was the super-wide runway at night with the lights WAY out there on either side... during the first half of the week I was staring in front of the nose of the airplane because the Flap 40 groundspeed is sooooo slow down there, it looked like I was going to become a really slow lawn dart in a very big wide runway.

Later in the week, I had plugged in the brain again somewhere along the line and forced myself to look at the end of the runway... and the landings mostly straightened out. I think. And they probably got slower.

(Sorry if I was making you nervous Jesse! I also keep forgetting about the AS being virtually impossible to see from the right seat.)

Since I'm sharing about landings, the other thing it's going to be REALLY hard to knock out of my brain is shooting for the numbers.

Jesse and Jer/ both have had to remind me that you're shooting for the touchdown zone markers in IR flying, and I've never felt a need to "fly all the way down there" to land! That's just a waste of perfectly good runway! :wink2:

Just about every landing I was fighting with my "numbers aiming" habit or just beyond... my aim point in my head for almost 400 hours has been the top of the numbers or so, with a flare that ends up a little ways beyond it... not right on 'em, or way back at the line, but aiming for 1000' down is still a weird feeling. I'll get over it.

Something others planning on flying IR might as well know, I suppose. If you're enjoying your short landings... knock it off. Fly way down there to those big fat white painted things... they actually do have a purpose apparently.

I may have this wrong, but I also believe you were both hinting that not going for the touchdown zone markers is a "bustable" item on a check ride with some/all DPEs... is that correct?

I can't find it anywhere in the documentation, but maybe I missed it in the PTS.

Is it a relatively new thing, because I can hear my Private Instructor in my head saying "runway is made, power to idle" and from that point... there was no shooting for any particular spot at first, and then later for short field, it was dead in the center of the numbers. He also used to joke that I "like" full flap slow landings, and it was my no flap fast landings that I usually sucked at and required more work.

BTW: I've avoided opening up that PTS booklet for a number of days now so I don't see how badly I'm doing.

Thanks all for lettin' me share... tonight the WX goes to crap, and I just got a note from Jer/ saying he enjoyed it and "I hope we can make rapid progress from here"...

Uuuggh!!... it's so damn hard to tell if that whole thing was "trial by fire" and was just to see where I'm at and how this would go if I continue with him!!!!

It's incredible to me how two instructors of what (at least at the moment) seem to me to be completely different teaching styles -- can both turn out safe competent IR pilots who may be flying completely differently inside their heads at the end, but doing everything to better than check ride standards.

That doesn't sit well with my computer-guy brain.

Computers only do things ONE way. Sigh... Humans! We're so messy!

 

[DavidWhite]

No, the cloud whistle is a real thing! It kinda freaked me out, too. Makes you sound like you are going really fast.

 

[denverpilot]

On the trip out to Edwards, Jer/ was right seat & there was another ATP in the back. Going past Sedona the back seat went "Jer/, stop it. You're freaking her out and annoying me!" when he started demonstrating mountain flying technique about 200 AGL the side of the mountains.

On the other hand, I really did enjoy the 10 hours of practical mountain flying examples I didn't pay for...

Heh... so you're saying you're ready for the CAP Mountain Mission Pilot check ride with Countour Search techniques?

Yes, that looks really freaky and dangerous the first time you do it.

There's some folks in the Squadron who can get the angles just right so you actually have a chance in Hades of looking down INTO the trees for a wreck...

It's a completely different flying technique than anyone will ever teach in a regular Mountain flying course, other than when "hugging" a ridge line for lift on the downwind side...

Jer/'s actually REALLY good at it, but it seems a little goofy to demonstrate it in your airplane. He really likes his mountain flying.

One thing to note is that he's looking forward... because it's basically an emergency maneuver to stop it if things aren't going right. You never allow any of the terrain ahead to climb in the windshield while doing a contour search, and always have lower terrain to turn out to on the other side of the aircraft. Unexpected downdrafts during a contour search SUUUUUUUUUCK.

It looks to those of us not used to it -- like you're "buzzing" the side of the hill. But done right, you're supposed to be 500' AGL or more from the ground directly below the aircraft, and some distance from the terrain to the side of the aircraft. (I'd have to go look that one up.)

The problem is... Nature doesn't have any perfectly cone shaped mountains to fly around... searching lumpy, bumpy stuff where the valley floor isn't flat, and the mountain has weird humps sticking out of it, means it ends up a bit of a judgement call on the AGL height at certain points.

It still looks like a ton of green things are going by above your altitude out the search side window no matter how you fly it and that'll get your attention and hold it, for sure. If you're short a crew member and have no back seater... putting the terrain on the right side sometimes freaks out even the pilots a little bit. Most want that terrain out THEIR side window to better judge the distance. Putting it on the other side means picking a "line" to hold while looking forward most of the time, and relying on the right-seater to holler if something looks seriously wrong.

If you get TOO close during a pass, the stuff out the window goes by too fast for any kind of effective eyeball search techniques for the Observer and Scanner. You'll never see anything if the green stuff out that window is just a blur. With the new photography focus, that'll get even more important.

 

[taters]

Sometimes I have to load students up to the poitn where they break - because I need to see where that point is and I want them to know how to recover from mental defeat.

+1 , I'm sure your students will be thankful for that, especially in the check environment


Sometimes it can be effective to remind them that they are PIC through an overload situation. Ex. Assigning a "back to back" approach that you know the student isn't ready for. I always bought em an extra beer if they asked for more time, delay vectors, hold anything but taking the bait.

 

[Clark1961]

Nate, I'm back in Denver for a little while and the Frankenkota needs exercise. We just need to pick a time. Usually a weekend is best but do have some time off with the holidays.

 

[Everskyward]

I would also be willing to go up with you, but unlike everyone else we are busy this time of the year and I'm either on a trip or a short leash until after the beginning of the year.

 

[jason]

+1 , I'm sure your students will be thankful for that, especially in the check environment


Sometimes it can be effective to remind them that they are PIC through an overload situation. Ex. Assigning a "back to back" approach that you know the student isn't ready for. I always bought em an extra beer if they asked for more time, delay vectors, hold anything but taking the bait.

During my IPC last month I was holding on the LNK VOR and ATC was waiting for me to let them know when I was ready for the VOR 18. We did a lap in the hold and Jesse told me to go ahead and call inbound out of the hold but I felt behind. We had just finished an approach/missed/hold sequence with no chance to set back up, so I told him that I was going to do another lap.

It gave me the chance to properly brief the approach and get my feet back under me.

Hell, I'm pretty sure that I told Bert (my DPE) to "standby" at least twice during my checkride.

 

[bbchien]

Jesse....what you MEANT to say was, "Sometimes I overfill the student's plate so he can become aware of how to prioritize", not so much "load students up to the poitn where they break....."

 

[jesse]

Jesse....what you MEANT to say was, "Sometimes I overfill the student's plate so he can become aware of how to prioritize", not so much "load students up to the poitn where they break....."

Different words - same meaning. I'm not a words guy.

Honestly I'm not actually a huge fan of intentionally over-loading students - Students are pretty good at overloading themselves. Sometimes it needs to be done but it's most certainly a rare occasion.

For example - sometimes a pilot might be ignoring advice you're giving them because they think what they are doing is fine. They won't truly see the light until you load them up to where it REALLY matters.

The takeaway from this whole discussion though - is that there is not a one size fits all technique that works for every student. I encourage every student I talk with to find the instructor that best fits them.

 

[denverpilot]

Arghhh! Plow the damn hangar rows already!

I know if they don't finish it today it won't get done all weekend, so I'm headed home to repair the snowblower. Impeller belt came off.

Gonna go see if it's the shear pin or the belt or if something actually broke. Sigh.

That way I can just clear a path for myself with 50s in the forecast over the weekend, if it's still a mess tomorrow. Sheesh.

Please note: All the rental aircraft rows are plowed. KAPA likes you guys I guess... Grrrr.

 

[gkainz]

I heard the T Hangars at BJC look just as bad...

 

[murphey]

I heard the T Hangars at BJC look just as bad...

I'm in a T at FTG and all the county property is nicely plowed. I did need to shovel out about 1 ft across the entire door - the plows don't get any closer due to possible damage to the plow (no one cares about the doors).

Of course my friends who own hangars - that's a different story. They either shovel or have pay a company to come out and plow.

It's still too warm for a BBQ at Clark's hangar...

 

[denverpilot]

Well the snowblower is fixed (well the worn belt is back in its track anyway, and I'll have to figure out how you get at it to replace it... looks like the whole front half of the snowblower has to come off to get at the lower pulley).

Got that done before my garage turned into its usual ice-house after sun-down. Then I went and put all the snow in the gutter out in the street where the sunshine hits. (if I ever think of purchasing another north-facing house in Colorado, someone shoot me. LOL!)

Love those Craftsman ratchet wrenches by the way. Those were a good purchase a couple of years ago!

Santa just might drop off a couple of cheap motorcycle type ramps from Harbor Freight for getting the John Deere 26" behemoth into the utility trailer tomorrow morning. The Aurora store is our of stock but Littleton has 'em.

Santa also would be quite the helpful old elf if he'd pick up about 50 lbs of ice melt for Mrs Claus's front sidewalk/ice dam.

He won't get to go flying very early if he doesn't go to bed soon so he can do all these chores. Heh heh. I miss the Silverhawk pit crew!

Mrs Claus had tickets for West Side Story at the Buell Theatre tonight. A touching tale full of Chrismas cheer.

If only real world gangs danced that much, they might not need to blow off steam shooting each other.

They'd be tired from all the dancing and finger snapping.

 

[Clark1961]

I'm in a T at FTG and all the county property is nicely plowed. I did need to shovel out about 1 ft across the entire door - the plows don't get any closer due to possible damage to the plow (no one cares about the doors).

Those of us with east facing hangars were okay. Looks like the west facing guys had just a tiny bit more snow to shovel after this storm. Like a foot or two to more to shovel. I coulda used a broom to clear my door.

 

[denverpilot]

"A mile of runway may get you anywhere, but 200 yards of unplowed taxiway will make it a pain in the ass."

My new quote for the day.

Okay that's enough of that. See y'all at Perfect Landing in a bit.

I'll let old Sol do his thing on the rest...

 

[denverpilot]

Had lunch with Murphey (who played us Christmas carols on her kazoo), Mari, Clark, and Mark came too!, and my wife at PL.

Then Clark asked, "So are we going flying?". Yay!

We all went to the hangar and when I offered to give Mari and Murphey a ride back they said no... They hoofed it in the snow back to their cars. I offered!

1.8 total with most of it under the hood. Doing VFR under the Bravo is a bit of a pain.

Foreflight was doing something very naughty. Part of the IFR Low Enroute was missing even though it said it was loaded and up to date, which made "own nav" a little well... Impossible.

Denver obliged with RADAR vectors to final for the ILS 35 and 17 at KFTG and the LOC 35 at KAPA.

Clark had to say something a couple of times but in general I don't think I scared him too badly. I was kinda set up to center-punch the ATCT at KFTG on the first missed and I'm definitely not used to not being able to fly the published missed approaches. Kinda have to make up the missed as you go along underneath the Bravo. Different.

"Missed Southeast VFR" gets turned into "After climbing to 400 AGL I'll turn to a heading of 120 and climb to 6800 until we're clear of the 10 mile ring off of DEN. Then up to 7200."

Clark helped with some hints on how to set up for that including leaving DEN in Nav 2. Thanks Clark!

You also almost always have to break off approached to KAPA early and we did, but that's ok. Again, different than being all by ourselves in the middle of nowhere in Nebraska. I'm a little spoiled getting to fly all the way down to the missed approach point.

I'm going to have to go figure out what FF is doing. May have to re-download the charts. Restart didn't seem to clear it. Weird.

Thanks Clark for the practice! I'm happy to do the same anytime!

Airplane seemed to like 14" MP vs the 13.5" in Nebraska for 90 knots. And of course indicated is a bit lower up here. Got used to that now I think. That helped too.

More practice. Need to not have little lapses where someone says "heading". Altitude was okay but needs to be more precise.

Just a bit more bandwidth in the head and I'll be able to cram all of the written checklist back in. Wasn't missing checklist items but was doing too many from memory to try not to look down and blow something else.

I'll get there. Thanks again Clark!

 

[Everskyward]

Had lunch with Murphey (who played us Christmas carols on her kazoo), Mari, Clark, and Mark came too!, and my wife at PL.

Then Clark asked, "So are we going flying?". Yay!

We all went to the hangar and when I offered to give Mari and Murphey a ride back they said no... They hoofed it in the snow back to their cars. I offered!

That wasn't a bad walk. Just somewhat slippery.

Sure seems like a lot of effort to go flying!

Are the skies of Denver ready for these guys? Clark on the left, Nate on the right.

Seeya!

 

[Clark1961]

The pictures pretty much tell the story of warming up & firing up. Of course they don't show Nate shoveling so he could go flying...

Nate did good. A couple more flights and he'll be ready for the ride. Flying around the bravo under the hood is a bit more challenging than out in the boonies. It helps to have altitude assignments from either a cfii or atc. I'm neither so Nate had the extra challenge of selecting his own approach altitudes.

There were no traffic conflicts, the air was smoooooth, and Nate bought the gas. It was a good afternoon flight.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Sorry to be here so late. Good luck to you. I've met Jesse, Mari, and Clark now - all great people - and I enjoyed reading your stories. Today is day SIX of my sickness (head cold) and I really haven't flown since October. I can't afford it. Great to read about what will one day be my "next step" - instrument training - but it sounds like something I should save up for and not do one lesson at a time. I would not do well.

Keep posting.... have you flown again? What's next?

 

[denverpilot]

Yup, flew again yesterday with Clark and a small PoA contingent down to KRTN and had a cheeseburger with green chilis.

Missing info here in this thread because I posted in the other one...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46326

Today I'm back at work. I have some phone calls to make to hunt down a CFII that I find more "compatible" with my personality, and the work schedule is really going to be a problem again (as usual) now that the normal life schedule has returned. Tonight I have an 11PM maintenance window to make some changes on work servers. I'm also on-call all week... and no "cover" co-worker, he's on vacation now that I'm back. 2+ hour flights are not in the cards without multiple phone calls to get boss and system architect to cover.

Tally'd up the logbook last night and I've flown over 50 hours this month chasing this dragon.

Most were under the hood, but the flights out to NE and back, one flight VFR to avoid being under the hood when we had our static system issue at night in NE, and the two flights -- up and back -- to KFNL for the "lesson from hell" (ha!) which was also VFR... so 7.1 in Actual with Jesse, 31.x (book's not here at the office) simulated, 1.1 PCATD...

I think I doubled my flight time for the year in one month! I haven't checked that yet. Might not be quite double what I'd already flown.

The "flight account" where I save up for crazy stuff like this has taken the planned huge hit. I do recommend doing it that way. No double-checking the withdrawals every day... less stress. The money was there, and it was going to get spent... no worries that way.

Psysiologically, I'm also pretty darn tired. If you're going to do stuff like this with mornings, late nights, weekends, and any kind of "real life" attempting to intervene, do it when you're 20-something, not almost 40... or make sure you completely clear the decks. I still had even some minor work stuff trickling in via e-mail in NE, and since getting back... there's a lot of "real life" intruding.

Right now, I honestly don't know right now how this will play out. No planned date for a check ride, and won't really feel like there's a plan until at least a few flights with another CFII.

Still feel like I'm making some really stupid mistakes in the airplane, and I feel a bit like the more I learn, the more I think I know nothing at all.

The flights with Clark really lowered the stress level a lot and Clark's a funny guy... humor helps. ("Boy I'm glad you didn't turn right!", he'd joke as he's looking out the window at the mountains to the right...)

I can tell there's a lot of little precision stuff that's escaping me still... talking a bit with Clark, I must admit I'm happy for a relatively simple power plant... his Frankenkota has some additional limitations on temperatures and things that I'd probably just be too far behind to even deal with...

I'm sure they're second nature to him since it's his power plant and wallet paying for it.

Yesterday I inadvertently left the flaps at 10 degrees for 15 miles I was so intent on flying the long slow climb necessary to get to the MEAs around KRTN. I just feel like an utter doofus when I do stuff like that. The checklist is there, you've run it a million times VFR and don't lose track of the flap handle... why when plowing straight ahead for 20 miles out to CIM with nothing particularly "hard" to do IFR, do I let stuff like that get away from me. Embarrassing, really. Very embarrassing.

The minor squawk list on the 182 has grown also during all of this flying...

Left side panel lights were already out, landing light failed in Lincoln and it's a bugger to get at in the cowl, parking brake failure, Jesse noticed a "squeak" from the pilot's side right rudder pedal that now that I'm hearing it, will ultimately we'll have to have looked at to see why, would like to have the vacuum regulator upped a touch to the center of the green on the gauge to see if the AI behaves any differently after long right turns, and with all that flying, we're probably due already for another oil change or very close.... it's interesting -- nothing important is failed, just a longer than normal list of little stuff.

So some down-time for the bird may have to happen and if the local shops are their usual "beyond busy", and it'll be a bugger to schedule that. I hate to take an airplane to a check ride with a list of minor squawks longer than my arm, though.

Unfortunately the work/life schedule looks like it'll send me into a holding pattern (pun intended! GRIN!) this week.

It's amazing how much of a typical day is eaten up with really stupid stuff... you really see if after you leave town and do something like Jesse and I's focused week for a while... just running home to make sure the dog has been let out every evening (even if I could go flying) eats up 45 minutes... that you could be pre-flighting, pre-heating, getting the bird out of the hangar, checking weather... etc.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

If the plane ends up in maintenance and you have to take some down time, consider spending some of it yourself, briefing and flying approaches on your flight sim, or with an instructor in a PCATD. Keep those skills and scan sharp!

 

[denverpilot]

Yeah, the Yoke and Rudder Pedals are in a box. They need to be hooked up this week.

 

[murphey]

Nate

Found a great CFII for you - and based at APA these days. One of our EAA 301 Young Eagle pilots, too.

http://dagmaraerobatics.com/dagmar_aerobatics/Movies.html

 

[denverpilot]

I have CFII referrals coming out of my ears at this point.

Just getting through the week of on-call and the holidays. And this...

(I know Dag via Doug... She coordinated the last two KBJC airshows, from what I've heard. Haven't met her in person yet, though.)

 

[denverpilot]

Another Safety Pilot today. Quick flight and two approaches. Son of a friend who passed his Commercial while I was in Nebraska and already has his IR.

Most shocking things: I was ahead of the airplane the whole time (holy ****!) ...

And unsolicited after the flight he said, "You were really smooth. The examiners look for that."

Whoa. Is it finally setting into my brain?!

He also threw partial panel at me on the second ILS with a vacuum failure. So ... Ahem... Nice of him.

He's been training like he's headed for a multi-person crew from day one, so the crew coordination got a bit of a workout too. Very nice. Good callouts, briefings, etc. He's sharing some briefing and crew coordination cards all students in his program carry with them. Cool.

Still deciding on the local CFII. Piles of referrals. Discussion via e-mail with Jer/ hashed out misunderstandings also.

Going up Wednesday night weather and work permitting with one of my co-owners as Safety Pilot to keep skills going. Should be fun.

I've flown with my other co-owner a bunch but somehow in three years have never flown with co-owner #2. Should be entertaining.

 

[denverpilot]

Forgot to mention... Lunch with one of Key Lime's Metroliner pilots via mutual Ham Radio association and talked Foreflight, iPad, flying, etc.

The new Commercial pilot friend and his dad were there for lunch at Perfect Landing also, along with my wife.

The Key Lime guy kept trying to introduce me to Foreflight which was hilarious. "Been using it almost since it came out."

"Yeah, but did you know it can do this?!"

"Yeah."

"Have you seen the Apps and websites for tracking flights and seeing the track later?!"

Yes. Yes. Yes. Haha.

Fun to watch someone who just got into the 21st Century with the tech.

Then prior to our flight he met us on the ramp and opened up one of the Key Lime Metroliners (while waving his employee badge at the maintenance chief and a mechanic who came screaming across the ramp on a tug wondering who was jacking with their airplane - ha... He probably should have given them a courtesy call first!) and we dorked around in the cockpit for a while.

KLN90B, and autopilots all removed. Those guys and gals are earning their money, for sure. All hand-flown. All weather. Bunch of flights handling UPS cargo out of DIA every day. A few passenger flights out of KAPA.

The airplane we were messing around in was over at KAPA for MX. He said he was pretty sure it's be over at DIA for his flight tomorrow. Same bird.

Anyway, was fun. Sits a little taller than the 182. Definitely a "working airplane". Nothing pretty about the cockpit. HSI, six-pack, and the usual assortment of engine gauges for a turboprop and lots of paint rubbed off of every button, knob, and switch in sight. Not exactly the impressive cockpit the ATR-42 had, nor the Boeing 75/76 or 747-400 simulators I've flown.

He obviously liked it though. He'd spent a ton of time flying Cessna 402s in Nevada and Texas prior to hiring on with Key Lime.

But hey... It looked more fun than sitting in a cubical.

Too bad it doesn't pay even close to what driving a desk chair does.

 

[murphey]

"Have you seen the Apps and websites for tracking flights and seeing the track later?!"

Which tracking app do you prefer?