Open Airplane allows individual owners to rent their planes

Ron Levy said:
Remember in evaluating this advice that it won't cost Jose a dime if you end up in court or with a big penalty for failing to collect/pay taxes or get the necessary licenses. And contrary to Jose's implication, I don't make any money at all because someone follows my advice, although I must admit to some personal satisfaction when someone stays out of trouble because they did.
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People need an attorney for a sales tax permit?

I have a half a dozen attorneys that I regularly talk to, Not a single one of them would be worried about me filling out a form for sales tax permit correctly.

Every single one of them would be much more worried about sheltering me from liability in case something goes wrong. None of them would be worried about business licenses.

Smh.
 
JoseCuervo said:
People need an attorney for a sales tax permit?
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I certainly didn't say that, but a sales tax permit isn't necessarily the only thing required, and I'm pretty darn sure the average owner/pilot probably doesn't know all the local requirements for doing this OpenAirplane business. If you are already running a small business or two, you are probably familiar with most or all those requirements, but you probably also, like Jose, talk to your business attorney regularly.

In any event, it's interesting that Jose suggests that others not bother with an attorney when he talks to half a dozen of them regularly. I suggest you do as he does, not as he says. :wink2:
 
The problem is going to be when someone starts putting their airplane up for rent, the airport is going consider them an aircraft rental business, and insist they must abide by the minimum standards for a Special Aeronautical Service Operation at the airport. That may require maintaining certain insurance liability minimums, renting office space, etc.
 
Anyway around the tax/rental, by making it a quasi-time share?
 
An interesting thought would be for clubs that have declining usage of their aircraft.

Because the OpenAirplane model leaves control of scheduling in the hands of the owner of the aircraft, and they can accept/decline any request to rent, they could establish a policy of allowing OpenAirplane renters to grab planes on say 24-48 hours maximum lead time, while club members would, of course, be able to book much further out.

They could use the rental income to defray maintenance and hangar costs for members.
 
If you do any kind of business it's not a bad idea to have a relationship with an attorney, but where I live it's really easy to set up a small business, even if you consider renting something you own to be a business at all.

I really can't see a legal problem renting an airplane through Open Airplane here in Texas.

I suppose you could go jump and down on the airport manager's desk and say "I'm renting airplanes on your airport...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, TRY AND SHUT ME DOWN!".

But I don't recommend that approach.

The main operational problem I can see is managing the keys. I don't think the FBOs at Bergstrom of Austin Executive would want to get involved in handing out keys.

For a long time I had a vacation home on the Gulf Coast that I sometimes rented out. I used an internet controlled lock that the tenants could use to access the house.

I wonder if there is a cell system enabled lock box of some kind that one could hang on a tie down ring one could use to contain the airplane keys?
 
JimNtexas said:
I wonder if there is a cell system enabled lock box of some kind that one could hang on a tie down ring one could use to contain the airplane keys?
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There are mechanical/electrical ones used in real estate. Just change the code every so often.
 
dans2992 said:
What's "VRBO"? Vacation Rental By Owner?

$40k sounds like a good return. How much is the unit worth if you bought it today?
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www.vrbo.com
A great service for those needing to rent out properties and people looking for something besides a hotel.

The bank and I hope the unit is at least worth 600k but there haven't been any comparables in awhile.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm pretty darn sure the average owner/pilot probably doesn't know all the local requirements for doing this OpenAirplane business.
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I'm pretty damn sure that most attorneys, even business attorneys, don't either. But they'll be happy to charge you a few grand for advice that may or may not be useful.

If you want to do it on the up-and-up, a few minutes talking across the counter with your city business license department will tell you what you need.

The odds of getting in trouble on the business side on an operation like this is about the same as medical incapacitation for a private pilot....

The main concern is liability, and you just need to evaluate what OpenAirplane has set up and see if that works for your situation.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'm pretty damn sure that most attorneys, even business attorneys, don't either. But they'll be happy to charge you a few grand for advice that may or may not be useful.
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My experience with attorneys is that they are pretty quick to tell you when your question is outside their area of expertise and refer you to one who knows that field, but YMMV.
 
Ron Levy said:
My experience with attorneys is that they are pretty quick to tell you when your question is outside their area of expertise and refer you to one who knows that field, but YMMV.
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My experience differs a lot from yours on this point. If they don't know, they'll gladly charge whatever hours are needed to educate themselves at the client's expense. I'm sure not all are like this, but I've met more than a few who do bill this way.
 
JimNtexas said:
The main operational problem I can see is managing the keys. I don't think the FBOs at Bergstrom of Austin Executive would want to get involved in handing out keys.

For a long time I had a vacation home on the Gulf Coast that I sometimes rented out. I used an internet controlled lock that the tenants could use to access the house.

I wonder if there is a cell system enabled lock box of some kind that one could hang on a tie down ring one could use to contain the airplane keys?
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I see accessing the ramp as another potential issue. Some airports you can't just walk onto the ramp and access the aircraft and some you can. It's likely fine if it's during business hours, but what if a renter wants to take a night flight?
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm going to try to get a quote from Starr on Monday. It will be interesting to see what they say.
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I got a reply from Starr, but it included the following:
This e-mail and any attachments hereto are intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named herein and may be confidential, non-public, proprietary, protected by the attorney/client or other privilege. Unauthorized reading, distribution, copying, saving or other use of this communication is prohibited and may be unlawful.
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So, I can't share it. However, I don't think I'm violating that statement by saying they referred me to a broker who handles Starr policies for OpenAirplane use. Further information when I receive it.
 
Hmmmm...I wonder if some CFIs might try to use this to get around the 100 hour requirement...

"Hey, he rented my plane from OpenAirplane, not from me!" And in fact, your rental fee will not come from the renter, they pay OpenAirplane and they pay the owner (minus their cut of course).
 
JeffDG said:
Hmmmm...I wonder if some CFIs might try to use this to get around the 100 hour requirement...

"Hey, he rented my plane from OpenAirplane, not from me!" And in fact, your rental fee will not come from the renter, they pay OpenAirplane and they pay the owner (minus their cut of course).
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Somehow I suspect the FAA will hear a loudly quacking duck.
 
Ron Levy said:
I got a reply from Starr, but it included the following:
So, I can't share it. However, I don't think I'm violating that statement by saying they referred me to a broker who handles Starr policies for OpenAirplane use. Further information when I receive it.
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You can safely say whether or not it's competitive with your existing policy and what % of increase it will cost you over your existing policy.
 
Ron Levy said:
I got a reply from Starr, but it included the following:
So, I can't share it. However, I don't think I'm violating that statement by saying they referred me to a broker who handles Starr policies for OpenAirplane use. Further information when I receive it.
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Did you not violate the policy by posting the footnote? :D
 
jesse said:
You can safely say whether or not it's competitive with your existing policy and what % of increase it will cost you over your existing policy.
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If they included that information, I could, but the didn't, so I can't. As I said, all it said was they were referring me to a broker. Still waiting for the broker. If I don't hear by tomorrow, I'll call the broker.
 
Ron Levy said:
I got a reply from Starr, but it included the following:
So, I can't share it. However, I don't think I'm violating that statement by saying they referred me to a broker who handles Starr policies for OpenAirplane use. Further information when I receive it.
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You don't violate that policy by posting the contents here I think.
What that thing says is that it's for your use. You posting it here is part of the use you decide to give the information.
I assume "Unauthorized reading, distribution, yadda yadda" refers to unauthorized by the intended recipient or the sender.

But I'm not a lawyer :D
 
Johann said:
You don't violate that policy by posting the contents here I think.
What that thing says is that it's for your use. You posting it here is part of the use you decide to give the information.
I assume "Unauthorized reading, distribution, yadda yadda" refers to unauthorized by the intended recipient or the sender.

But I'm not a lawyer :D
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Neither am I, but it really doesn't matter as I think my précis is sufficient to understand what it said.
 
Ron Levy said:
I got a reply from Starr, but it included the following:
So, I can't share it. However, I don't think I'm violating that statement by saying they referred me to a broker who handles Starr policies for OpenAirplane use. Further information when I receive it.
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That is funny you got stopped by email disclaimer.
 
ColoPilot said:
I wonder if there is a market for a middle ground -- in between renting and aircraft partnership? A service to connect aircraft owners with 1 or 2 pilots who would use their aircraft and share expenses without an equity stake.

I'm sure at my local airport there are dozens of aircraft that hardly fly and I'd love to find an owner who would like to offset some of their expenses with someone who would take care of the aircraft.
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Yup. It was called the Aircraft Partnership Association. AOPA bought it, neglected it until it pretty much died, and then killed it off. :mad::mad2:
 
JeffDG said:
I love disclaimers like that...

Go ahead, try to enforce it..."Where, exactly, did I agree to keep that information confidential?"
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I like the ones that demand you delete the message if you are not the intended recipient and notify the sender that it was sent wrong and that you have complied with the order to delete.


And the other one that tells you that you can't tear the tag off your mattress.
 
JeffDG said:
I love disclaimers like that...

Go ahead, try to enforce it..."Where, exactly, did I agree to keep that information confidential?"
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The disclaimers are generally for the benefit of the sender, and sometimes required by law. Not really anything they could do if you post the email's contents on the internet.
 
How 'bout the possibility that Ron took the disclaimer at face value and honored its position?
 
JeffDG said:
I love disclaimers like that...

Go ahead, try to enforce it..."Where, exactly, did I agree to keep that information confidential?"
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I like the disclaimer idea. I'll use it whenever I want to make an inflammatory remark. Now let some jerkwad try and contradict me. I got the law on my side!
___________________________________________
This post and any attachments hereto are intended only for the abuse of the user(s) quoted herein and may be confidential, non-public, proprietary, protected by the attorney/client or other privilege. Commenting, reading, distribution, copying, grumbling or other spiteful remarks about this communication is prohibited and may be unlawful.
 
I use the "disclaimer" to get people to send me money.

By reading this email you agree to send me $10,000 USD. How binding do you think that is?
 
Jeff Oslick said:
My experience differs a lot from yours on this point. If they don't know, they'll gladly charge whatever hours are needed to educate themselves at the client's expense. I'm sure not all are like this, but I've met more than a few who do bill this way.
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Exactly. Attorneys are hesitant to refer if they don't know the other attorney is an expert. Lots of times they are just using a "google" search of the Bar.

When I have had attorneys refer, the original attorney always remains engaged. Allows me to pay for 2 attorneys at once. :wink2:
 
EdFred said:
I use the "disclaimer" to get people to send me money.

By reading this email you agree to send me $10,000 USD. How binding do you think that is?
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Crap! I just read that twice.
___________________________________________
This post and any attachments hereto are intended only for the abuse of the user(s) quoted herein and may be confidential, non-public, proprietary, protected by the attorney/client or other privilege. Commenting, reading, distribution, copying, grumbling or other spiteful remarks about this communication is prohibited and may be unlawful. Readers of this post must also agree to pay EdFred all the money I owe him for reading his posts. And pick me up a cup of coffee tomorrow morning while you're at it.
 
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I see renting a plane as something you do based on trust, both ways. The owner is trusting the renter not to trash the airplane and the renter is trusting the owner that his airplane is not a death trap. In my experience, I like to know and build a relationship with the business/person I am renting from before jumping in and renting. Going out of town and going to a random FBO to rent is not my cup of tea.
 
I signed up but as of now nothing in my area would be nice especially as I m closing to either joining a club or wanting to buy something..
 
QuiQuog said:
Crap! I just read that twice.
___________________________________________
This post and any attachments hereto are intended only for the abuse of the user(s) quoted herein and may be confidential, non-public, proprietary, protected by the attorney/client or other privilege. Commenting, reading, distribution, copying, grumbling or other spiteful remarks about this communication is prohibited and may be unlawful. Readers of this post must also agree to pay EdFred all the money I owe him for reading his posts. And pick me up a cup of coffee tomorrow morning while you're at it.
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uh oh, I read your signature....does that mean I have to pay you to pay me?
 
One of my favourite disclaimers on a message board was about the author "reserves all copyrights, including fair use"

Well, fair use is a right of a person copying the material, not the author of said material, so reserve all you want, but if I want to copy your post somewhere else to call you a moron, that's copying for the purpose of criticism, and I will happily claim my right to fair-use.
 
You guys are funny. And by funny I mean "bordering on extremist."

No, it doesn't take a lawyer to get a seller's permit. But not talking to a lawyer AT ALL when starting a new business is foolish.

Do your homework, read the regs for companies of the type you're starting in your state. Contact the appropriate government agencies. Give them paperwork. But, TALK TO A LAWYER TOO. If you've got your act together, for under $1000 you can get articles of incorporation written, constitution and bylaws for your corporation, and all of the other necessities in a state that fits with current legal best practices, and you can be sure you're doing things right.

Last time I incorporated a business in 1998, we did all that in a few visits with a good small business lawyer and got everything done for $400. It was worth every penny.
 
I just used this service a couple of weeks back after learning about it in this forum and here is my experience.

- It was great!

- It allowed me to go out of town and take my sister on a quick lunch to another airport on her birthday and her first ever small plane ride.

- It allowed me to get a checkout (and MY first ever ride) in a G1000 172 (yes, Kent from PilotCast I thought about your podcast when you came to Florida and did the same years ago...what happened to the podcast?)

Anyways, here's the sequence.

I was traveling to San Antonio, Texas and I wanted to rent there. I asked here in the forum and someone recommended I go to Boerne Stage Field, that they are nice folks and also part of the OpenAirplane network.

Curious, I went to the OpenAirplane website, registered (2 minutes) and started filling in my profile. Got renters insurance from AOPA in another 2 minutes and uploaded that info to OA.

I scheduled a Universal Checkout (pretty much an in between a full checkride and a BFR, counts as a BFR by the way, and needs to be done yearly) in Boerne Stage field. Came to the appointment, and what do you know, low ceilings the whole day, had to cancel.

I was traveling to Houston as part of my trip for 2 days and then coming back to SA to finish my vacation, so what do I do? Go back into OA and find an FBO in Houston to do my Universal Checkout, and then come back to SA to fly the mission.

Worked like a charm. I scheduled the checkout with the fine folks at Texas Flight Service in KDWH, made it a G1000 checkout, went there, spent 1hr and change with the instructor in like an oral/ground instruction and then we went up for another hour in the 172. He signed me off, and the fine folks at OpenAirplane helped me upload all my checkout info and change my status in their system to "Ready to Fly!"

Back I went to SA 2 days later, went back to Boerne and rented a 172, took my sis up to Fredericksburg for lunch, excellent experience for all of us, and now I can go anywhere and rent whenever I feel like it.

I think this service will be a hit for everybody involved; pilots get to fly more anywhere they are, plane owners get their machines moving, and OpenAirplane makes a little money for setting up this wonderful service.

Go for it guys!

Luis.

PS: I don't work for OpenAirplane, just my very positive experience with the service.
 
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It should certainly make renting on vacation easier, assuming there are renters in the network near by. The universal checkout for the entire network is a good idea.
 
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