OOPS! Shoulda took out a house or two instead..
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Silvaire
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Silvaire
Is a J3 even capable of taking out a house or two?
They don't have "nuclear weapons" there and it's not a restricted area. The pilot being taken by armed guards and led away in handcuffs is just another example of how jacked up this country has become since 9/11. They are 5 miles from Livermore airport, a little yellow Piper Cub that flys over the place practiaclly every day lands in a field with a dead engine and they can't figure out what's going on?
It boggles the mind
patmike
Pre-takeoff checklist
Probably the most excitement those security guards have had in years. They're going to milk it out for all it's worth.
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
I wonder if the AOPA will help this man. How can one go to jail for this. Do you still believe this is a free country?
Tony
Tony
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
They approach the empty plane with guns drawn...I bet they look like a bunch of stupid idiots doing that. Maybe they thought the airplane was going to shoot at them. I am surprised they did not unload on that empty airplane all in the name of safety..
Tony
Tony
AdamZ
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Adam Zucker
My guess is he's not going to be charged once they figure out that it had an Mx failure or fuel exhaustion.
1600vw
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He should have never been put in handcuffs to begin with. Then hauled off. If some alphabet company does not speak up for this man I am dropping my membership selling my airplanes and taking up fishing for when will this be me or you?
Tony
JasonM
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That's crazy the arrested him for that. How about celebrate the fact he picked a safe place to land. sheesh.. btw, look at the high security perimeter fence. fugg.. my 3 year old could climb over that.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
dukeblue219
Line Up and Wait
The guy was apparently not "arrested" but simply detained by the security guards on site and then quickly released. Yes, it's dumb, but let's not overreact. The guy is not going to jail or anything like that.
http://news.kron4.com/news/pilot-de...y-landing-on-sandia-labs-campus-in-livermore/
I travel several times a year to national labs (like Sandia, Berkeley, etc) and they do take security seriously. Frankly, I don't have a problem with armed guards approaching a plane that just landed in a federal secured facility that does nuclear research. They took him in, talked to him, and then released him. That sounds like the proper reaction to me...
http://news.kron4.com/news/pilot-de...y-landing-on-sandia-labs-campus-in-livermore/
I travel several times a year to national labs (like Sandia, Berkeley, etc) and they do take security seriously. Frankly, I don't have a problem with armed guards approaching a plane that just landed in a federal secured facility that does nuclear research. They took him in, talked to him, and then released him. That sounds like the proper reaction to me...
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rbridges
En-Route
at the end of the video, they showed them letting the pilot go back to his plane to get his stuff. He'll probably have to explain a few things, but they'll probably let him go. I think they followed protocol. Probably overkill for this situation, but it doesn't seem too out of line IMO.
Timmer
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I always get a kick out of forums like this. Every time there is a crash, people here discuss how 98% of the story is wrong so we know how poorly news writers are and how they twist events for sensationalism.
Then, every time there's a story like this, we take the story at face value and don't read it as though we should accept that 98% of it is false. There are psych studies that explain this, of course, but it's neat seeing in person.
Then, every time there's a story like this, we take the story at face value and don't read it as though we should accept that 98% of it is false. There are psych studies that explain this, of course, but it's neat seeing in person.
upstateny
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Now in SW Florida
To quote a guy at an FAA safety presentation,
"You'd have to dive it straight down to re-arrange the furniture in a double-wide."
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Technically speaking, he trespassed on their property when he landed.
After a cursory investigation to figure out that he really didn't have a lot of choice, I would bet you're 100% correct on the outcome.
Pinstriper
Pre-takeoff checklist
I just like tossing the grenade into POA and sit back and read the comments every now and then..
good Lord, what have we become...
Very afraid.
dukeblue219
Line Up and Wait
Not in the air it isn't. But landing on a secured-access federal property is certainly prohibited. Do it for fun and you'll rightly get hauled off to jail. Do it in an emergency and they'll check you out and see what's up and then let you go. What's the problem here?
1600vw
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Whats the problem is this is America and not some other country and us America citizens are getting tired of having guns stuck in our face by people claiming to have our best interest at heart.
I never stick a gun in the face of those I claim to protect.
Tony
I never stick a gun in the face of those I claim to protect.
Tony
Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
This. I designed components of both LLNL and Sandia's security systems and I'm somewhat familiar with their guards. They are highly competent and they (rightly) place the security of the facility above the comfort of an intruder. Until they knew the intentions of the pilot, they had to treat him as potentially armed and crazy.
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
If he was crazy there would be a hole in the ground. Crazy people crash into things to kill not land and get out and walk up and have a shoot out.
Someone has watched to much TV.
Tony
QuiQuog
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Hobo Djoe
Take off the cammo paint and crawl out of your bunker. If you walk onto secure federal property without going through security you'll get jacked up. If you drive onto secure federal property without going through security you'll get jacked up. Why would you think that if you fly onto secure federal property without going through security you shouldn't get jacked up? You would rather have national secrets unprotected?
Sure. No worries. Aerate the intruder and ask questions later. I'm sure an apology from the commandant of the guard will set everything right.
I think the point was that a little discretion on the part of the officers was in order. I'm told they're highly trained professionals doing a very dangerous job. Seems to me if every person you meet on the job gets their face slammed in the mud, you're really not taking that much risk, nor acting very professional.
Was the subject pilot non-responsive or non-compliant with voice commands? Did he display any aggressive action towards to the officers? Pat him down, search the cabin (on a Cub that takes, what -- 30 seconds to do it twice?) and then begin to ask some questions. No turf munching, no handcuffs, no extended penal detention required.
Lindberg
Final Approach
What's the point of carrying a gun if you never get to point it at anyone?
MachFly
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MachFly
An apology? The man landed in a secure facility, the security there doesn't know why he landed. Sure he could have had an engine failure, but he also could have sabotaged it himself to have an excuse to land there. Yeah it's unlikely, but if security there will be assuming that everyone comes in peace, they wouldn't be very good at their job.
dukeblue219
Line Up and Wait
I can't watch the video with volume at work, so I don't know what the witnesses had to say, but I did watch it and read two other articles. Is there any evidence of the things I bolded?
If anyone in this thread was in charge of security at a US national security lab like Sandia, what would you do differently?
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nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
Street cops have to treat every traffic stop as if the driver was armed. They don't approach the vehicle with their weapons drawn. WTF is wrong with these Rambo wannabes?
It won't be long now before these jacked up Jack Boots kill somebody. Have we learned nothing from Kent State or even the Boston Massacre?
MachFly
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MachFly
Apples and oranges.
I totally agree. America is not the same country, and it is changing for the worse, but keep in mind if this were to happen in a lot of other country's the guy would never been seen again.
If this kind of stuff happens on public land, then we really have to start worrying.
I did look at the video. It was far from complete, but there was nothing like what I suggested shown. I assumed facts not in evidence.
QuiQuog
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Hobo Djoe
I think that's the difference right there, this isn't public land where people can take their families for a picnic. You also have to take into consideration the security that was breached. If it was a waste water treatment plant you might not expect the A Team to rush out and take positions to protect the stuff you flushed down your toilet. But it's not jack boot thuggery to use extreme caution when an individual breaks into a facility that houses nuclear secrets. Was he breaking into it? I don't know, and they didn't know at the time either. But if they just sauntered over behind Officer Fife with a bullet in his pocket to size it all up and the air around them erupted in bullets and pink mist you might wonder why they didn't take a tougher stance.
It's all okay, don't worry. This isn't signaling the end of days.
denverpilot
Tied Down
There's a whole bunch of those I certainly don't care about. Calling them "national" is cute though. More like "a few guys who we didn't vote for think they're a big deal"... while they spy on us.
nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
I like 24 too. I'd love to go all "Jack Bauer" on someone.
He's especially bad-ass when he flies a Piper Cub.
Silvaire
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Silvaire
Let's start with the handcuffs
QuiQuog
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Hobo Djoe
I like 24 too. I'd love to go all "Jack Bauer" on someone.
He's especially bad-ass when he flies a Piper Cub.
I don't know who Jack Bauer is, nor have I seen an episode of 24. Most people don't know the first thing about the capabilities of a Piper Cub or what it can carry, so why wouldn't they treat it with trepidation in an unknown situation? But I think you may be looking at this from the wrong perspective though. Instead of guessing what you might do based on what the reporter said the situation was, guess what you might do based on the report that security may have gotten. It probably wasn't much more than the fact that an airplane landed inside the perimeter within the last two minutes and an order to go secure the area. What kind of plane it was probably wasn't in the details. Even if it was, any information you get on events unfolding at that moment is going to be sketch at best, and if you wait until you walk up on the the scene before you prepare for it, you're not going to be in business long.
I know, the pink mist thing sounded a little over the top. But the reality can be anywhere from Earnest T. Bass to a vehicle loaded with explosives. You walk into a VA hospital and start telling the soldiers with missing limbs that it's over reacting to approach vehicles with weapons drawn. Roll your eyes all you want, but given the choice between politeness or seeing my children at the end of the day, I will choose my own safety ahead of an intruders feelings.
Lindberg
Final Approach
He was outside the secure area. Look at the fences. He's between the low perimeter fence and the barbed wire, right by a road. I've never been there, but Google Earth shows fields all around the outside of the secure area and none inside. What security should have done is approach cautiously and see if he needed assistance, then escort him off the property. Yes, there was a non-zero chance that he was some sort of nut, and maybe even of the subset of dangerous nuts. But that had to be way down the list of probabilities.
Treating every blip like a terrorist invasion is not a good security practice and doesn't make anyone safer. This is right up there with sending the sheriff after the glider pilot who circled over a cooling tower at the nuke plant. Sure, he could have been a terrorist, but so could my sister. The problem is that when you're trained as a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And we've got too many hammers nowadays, and not enough Andy Taylors.