$100 an hour? Where can I submit my resume?How to justify paying about $150/hour for your hobby when you only make $100/hr at your job?
Not sure where to put that in the curriculum. Maybe it is left out at the behest of the divorce lawyer lobby?
One thing that should have been taught to you in basic training, but was not.
- Thread starter drotto
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Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
And this has been my point all along. In my experience once that "any traffic please respond" call is made and no one responds, then that pilot stops looking for traffic. Heck on the other side I have seen folks make position calls and then totally ignore others responding back.
Of course there is no guarantee that people that don't use the "any traffic please respond" is looking for other traffic as well.
A lot of times when I hear other traffic for the first time I will respond with the usual call plus ETA in minutes to the airport.
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How to stay out of [fill in the blank] threads on POA."How to stay out of ATITPPA threads on PoA..."
There's also the issue of airport congestion back east, where multiple airports, all within N miles of each other, all with the same 122.8. We have that out west, but not as many.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
The first people I ever heard making that call were regional airline pilots here in the west, back in the late 80s and 90s. I didn't think anything about it one way or another and figured it was part of their SOPs, since it seemed that many did it. I can see how other pilots might have heard it and adopted it thinking it was a good idea. I don't make the call but I don't get all wound up when I hear others doing it. In fact, the first I heard of any controversy was here on POA. Then it came out in the AIM.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
It started out as an SOP for a particular regional airline and a particular college aviation program that had an agreement between them.
There was controversy over it in the mid-80s that I can remember...it just wasn't online.
denverpilot
Tied Down
It started out as an SOP for a particular regional airline and a particular college aviation program that had an agreement between them.
There was controversy over it in the mid-80s that I can remember...it just wasn't online.
That means there is a CHECKLIST floating around out there somewhere with ATITPPA that MUST be acquired and scanned and posted to PoA! LOL!
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I didn't know many pilots back in the mid-80s, only the handful of pilots I worked with in the mapping business. They were not into discussing procedure or regs, especially those practiced by other pilots, and neither was I. I didn't get into online discussions with pilots until about 2002.It started out as an SOP for a particular regional airline and a particular college aviation program that had an agreement between them.
There was controversy over it in the mid-80s that I can remember...it just wasn't online.
BrianNC
En-Route
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I've heard that ATITAPA started after Reagan fired the PATCO controllers and airlines were going into and out of a lot of "previously controlled" fields.
Mtns2Skies
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Mtns2Skies
My only issue with ATTITAPA is that it implies(to me) that the incoming pilot is not searching for NORDO traffic. It seems to me as if this question absolves them from the see and avoid responsibility for traffic and they focus only on who has responded.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Ummm...he's not suggesting "turning off the plane"
denverpilot
Tied Down
ROFLMAO. I missed this gem.
I swear, you're just a sim pilot aren't you? Really? You can't possibly think turning the master off "turns off the plane"?
I'm really starting to think you're just a wannabee hanging around here. Cut and pasted marketing garbage from various sources about ADS-B, statements like this one that are downright hilarious, bunch of other stuff just screams, "I haven't ever actually flown an airplane."
If you think this is some sort of problem, I'm pretty sure I'd be quite happy to be fired by you if you actually have any flight time at all, and are still that clueless.
Come on out to an actual airport sometime and any CFI will be happy to show you how well airplanes fly with the master off. LOL.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
So, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume you don't have a multi engine rating then. While actually shutting down an engine would be a stupid thing to do in a single, it's a required task for the multi, MEI and ATP rides. I agree with the principle of not actually moving certain critical switches in the interest of safety, but in a typical training setting, I don't view the master as critical. I've done just that while simulating electrical fires just as long as I'm not in airspace where I need to be talking to someone. I never saw it as excessive risk on a day vfr training flight.
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Bob Gardner
I'll disagree with GCA319 AND citizen5000: I never signed off an applicant for a private pilot certificate until I had at least once killed the engine with the mixture and demonstrated how the prop keeps turning until fuel is re-introduced into the intake manifold. For those who thought that the master switch controlled everything I simply turned it off. I also had students make at least one turn around the pattern with the airspeed indicator covered.
When I was training for the multiengine rating my wife sat in the back knitting while my instructor killed engines on me left and right (literally)...and on a twin you CAN stop the prop.
Humans fear the unknown, and the best way to allay that fear is to address the unknown and make it known.
Bob
When I was training for the multiengine rating my wife sat in the back knitting while my instructor killed engines on me left and right (literally)...and on a twin you CAN stop the prop.
Humans fear the unknown, and the best way to allay that fear is to address the unknown and make it known.
Bob
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MAKG1
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It's not usually critical, but there are a couple of cases where it's not a good idea.
Turning the master (and standby) off on a G1000 means you're not getting your AHRS back until you're on the ground. VFR, it doesn't matter. But, if there is any IMC around (like perhaps a marine layer undercast), you aren't getting through it full panel.
It's also not legal to do that in a Mode C veil (or in Class B/C/D), at least not without prior permission.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Its funny. Many of the things people miss during training, decontaminating wings, fueling the aircraft, stuff like that I did in spades because I've always owned my aircraft.
There is one myth that has been told to me by multiple CFIs repeatedly that is a complete and utter lie. I've seen it on these pages as well, still as fallacious as ever. The saying that a long cross country flight is just a series of short cross country flights. In my own opinion nothing whatsoever could be further from the truth.
There is one myth that has been told to me by multiple CFIs repeatedly that is a complete and utter lie. I've seen it on these pages as well, still as fallacious as ever. The saying that a long cross country flight is just a series of short cross country flights. In my own opinion nothing whatsoever could be further from the truth.
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Bob Gardner
Having delivered a bunch of PA-28s from Vero Beach to Seattle, I wonder what you are talking about (not the sum total of my trans-continental experience, but a convenient exemplar). Please explain.
Bob
denverpilot
Tied Down
Why not? I've said it too, and used it for years going places long distances away VFR. Sure, you look at the entire big picture for weather for an overall go/no-go, but ultimately once you've finished one leg and are back on the ground intact, the entire rest of the flight can be altered or changed at will from that point on the ground.
Is that not what you think we mean by that? We're talking about each leg to a landing point being one smaller X/C.
Certainly that's also how it has worked out in reality for me, also. On one "long XC" to OSH the airplane didn't pass a run-up check in North Platte, NE ... the end of "small XC #1" and the beginning of "small XC #2" in a three hop trip from KAPA - KOSH.
Total XC flight over, but one small XC completed successfully.
Got a rental car and left the airplane in Nebraska since parts needed to be ordered and shipped on a weekday.
That's what is meant by a "series of smaller XCs" and I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching it that way. As long as the overall big picture of weather and checking airports of intended landing for NOTAMs, etc... is still accomplished before flying the first leg as if it's a single XC.
It's just breaking the flight planning up into bite sized chunks and also knowing that the weather forecast WILL change between legs, forcing the student or newly minted pilot to sit down and really look at their weather and NOTAMs and get a real briefing before launching from the fuel stops.
denverpilot
Tied Down
"How to starts Cirrus specific thread to argue (again) about parachutes instead of doing it in the Icon thread..."
steingar
Taxi to Parking
On a local flight in your area if you've flown for awhile you have an intuitive feel for the weather and terrain conditions. You have a fairly good expectation of what the weather will do and what changes you can expect. Remove yourself to a distant part of the country or world and that expectation falls apart completely. It is better now than when I started flying because of the profusion of cockpit weather products. But that intuitive knowledge is still missing. Us flatlanders don't understand mountains, someone from the midwest may be clueless about flying over coast or water, and other issues. Thus in my own opinion a long cross country flight is nothing whatsoever like a local flight.
I might add that a long flight involves issues almost never encountered in a short flight, including maintenance away from home base, diverting due to weather, and a host of other issues. They are nearly apples and oranges in my opinion. And that is what I have stated, my opinion. But to me telling students that a trip across the US is just like a bunch of milk runs strut together is a blatant misrepresentation, again in my opinion.
Indeed your example is quite illustrating. Someone who grew up in Florida won't know a damn thing about flying in mountains, snow, icing and a whole other bunch of issues.
Hank S
En-Route
Steiner, I earned my wings ~40 Mooney minutes south of you (South Point, OH, an oxymoron if there ever was one!).
When I flew to Yellowstone, it was just several of the XCs I routinely made over the Appalachians to NC and GA. It wasn't a local flight, but neither were my XCs (that's why they are called "cross country" and not "local" flights).
When I went to PMH for breakfast, it didn't take much flight planning, just a glance at the sky and the radar, and call their AWOS on the phone and fly 335° for 15-20 minutes. Didn't do that going 2-3 hours away across the the mountains and didn't do it that way going across the Big River to the big mountains, either, but I planned the longer trip (1320 nm) the same way I did the shorter trips (200-400 nm), and my legs were generally the same length, too.
So my long trip was planned as a series of shorter trips. And it was a lot more fun, going new places, seeing new sights, meeting new and different types of people. So unlike my dad's tshirt that says "Join the Marines. Travel to exotic locations. Meet strange new people. And kill them."
When I flew to Yellowstone, it was just several of the XCs I routinely made over the Appalachians to NC and GA. It wasn't a local flight, but neither were my XCs (that's why they are called "cross country" and not "local" flights).
When I went to PMH for breakfast, it didn't take much flight planning, just a glance at the sky and the radar, and call their AWOS on the phone and fly 335° for 15-20 minutes. Didn't do that going 2-3 hours away across the the mountains and didn't do it that way going across the Big River to the big mountains, either, but I planned the longer trip (1320 nm) the same way I did the shorter trips (200-400 nm), and my legs were generally the same length, too.
So my long trip was planned as a series of shorter trips. And it was a lot more fun, going new places, seeing new sights, meeting new and different types of people. So unlike my dad's tshirt that says "Join the Marines. Travel to exotic locations. Meet strange new people. And kill them."
Skates97
Pre-takeoff checklist
As we were heading back to the airport towards the end of my check-ride the DPE covered up the airspeed indicator and said "Looks like a bug must have flown into your PITOT mast." Made the rest of the flight and landing without it, really not a big deal. If flying VFR a pilot should be comfortable without most of the instruments.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Hmmm. Interesting points.
Of course while we all know the reality is that, say, a mountain lubber such as myself WON'T know say, coastal fog... not from experience anyway...
Do you think anyone should be signed off for a Private checkride without at least a passing knowledge that coastal weather exists, even if they've never seen it, and since their role has now become Pilot In Command, they'd better look up or talk to some folks who understand it before they go fly to a coastal location from their land-locked high plains existence and life knowledge?
How about by the time they earn an Instrument rating? Commercial? ATP?
Ever met a Private Pilot who wasn't told they "now have a license [sic: certificate] to learn"?
I think about this stuff a lot as a newbie instructor.
I need to get the point across that there's regional weather and things a pilot from "here" won't know "there", but their base knowledge (how to read a weather forecast, map, radar, METAR, TAF, etc etc etc) HAS to cover 90%+ of what they need to know -- and then they have to gain experience on their own. I can't often take them to a coast and show them a marine layer. I can at best show them a photo of it or a video.
The cell phone will always be on too, if someone really has a question -- "Hey, I'm seeing something I've never seen before... and want an opinion..."
I really do think with the basic building blocks learned in the Private rating, someone CAN treat a long XC as a few shorter ones. But they also have to recognize they don't know the regional weather and perhaps alter their personal minimums and what not as they get further from "home".
Plus, who knows? There are students who are military brats or whatnot, who actually have seen all sorts of local weather all over the country or even multiple countries. They'll know more about it than I will... but the base techniques they need to learn won't change.
I can teach how to read stop lights. I can't teach that done city somewhere isn't standard and flips theirs from green through yellow to red a second faster than the usual/standard. But they can still read the stop sign. Can also give a heads up... "I've heard there are a few weird stop lights out there. Especially in X area. If you drive there, keep an eye out for it."
And I wholeheartedly agree with you. A cockpit is a CRAPPY place to be doing a weather briefing. Cockpit weather is to augment a proper briefing on the ground where one's full attention canbe given to the topic at hand.
I think your statement proves the base knowledge works. You know you don't know mountains. You'd ask about them or plan to go around them if your perfect route would take you directly over the Rockies.
Your students in your classes show up (hopefully, I know I know...) with a base knowledge level but don't know as much about genetics as they will when they leave. There's always levels to knowledge. It's super cliche' to say it, I know... but a good pilot is always learning. Long XCs crossing weather systems is a BIG learning step that most folks have to take eventually. Every airport has someone willing to help if something just doesn't seem right or a feeling of "I need to know more about what's happening here..." is nagging a pilot.
And one can always turn around and go back. The ultimate "I'd rather not get hurt doing this" move. One should never be too proud to bail out and go back the other direction.
Example: If one somehow missed that mountains can be dangerous and one encounters continuous moderate turbulence at the foothills, turning around and landing somewhere and asking a local why... instead of plowing on into the heart of the big rocks... shouldn't be ruled out.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I can see Steingar's point. By the time you're on the third leg away from home, you'll notice some things that are different. That third leg isn't going to look like any of the single-leg XC flights from your home base.
However, the point of the saying is that anyone with a Private Pilot certificate has the tools to be able to make a long XC flight, because airports work the same, navigation works the same, communication works the same, airspace works the same, etc.
And, every pilot SHOULD take long cross countries. You'll get so much more out of your pilot certificate if you do. It's the best way to learn more about flying *because* you will encounter new things. Sure, someone from the midwest or east coast with the ink wet on their Private probably shouldn't fly into a short grass strip in the mountains the next day, but they SHOULD go and seek out new experiences, and discover that whether you're talking to Minneapolis Approach or New York Approach or NorCal Approach, controllers are still controllers. If you're tuned into Colts Neck or Badger or Crazy Woman or Woodside, VORs are still VORs. And regardless of whether you're flying over a city or forest, the plane flies the same.
As I've been saying for a long time, to become a better pilot, you have to push your envelope - Just be sure to only push one corner at a time. But do push.
However, the point of the saying is that anyone with a Private Pilot certificate has the tools to be able to make a long XC flight, because airports work the same, navigation works the same, communication works the same, airspace works the same, etc.
And, every pilot SHOULD take long cross countries. You'll get so much more out of your pilot certificate if you do. It's the best way to learn more about flying *because* you will encounter new things. Sure, someone from the midwest or east coast with the ink wet on their Private probably shouldn't fly into a short grass strip in the mountains the next day, but they SHOULD go and seek out new experiences, and discover that whether you're talking to Minneapolis Approach or New York Approach or NorCal Approach, controllers are still controllers. If you're tuned into Colts Neck or Badger or Crazy Woman or Woodside, VORs are still VORs. And regardless of whether you're flying over a city or forest, the plane flies the same.
As I've been saying for a long time, to become a better pilot, you have to push your envelope - Just be sure to only push one corner at a time. But do push.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I never meant to say that someone with a PPL shouldn't fly where they will. Only that the long cross country can be a very different animal. But the skills to aviate, navigate, and communicate do remain constant.
citizen5000
Ejection Handle Pulled
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citizen5000
True cross country flights of 300nm or more to different destinations is the best way to stay sharp. If all you do is fly close to your home field you will groove in local customs and landmarks and freak out if you ever try to fly far from home.
brcase
En-Route
Guess I would have been fired almost every flight in the Champ, T-Craft or Cub
I don't really find it useful to shut everything down, unless it is simply to demonstrate that the engine keeps running just fine, and 99% of instrument/avionics failure is just an inconvenience not an emergency.
Brian
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
How to pee in a bottle without losing altitude or heading and not spilling on the floor....
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Bob Gardner
I started in 1960, before satellites and digital weather existed, and you could walk into a flight service station and discuss what was available from brown-on-white fax charts one-on-one with a briefer. I flew from Seattle to Atlanta without any mountain training when I was barely dry behind the ears. My experience has been to read up on new adventures and start from a foundation of basic knowledge.
Because I sought out flights that would take me to new places I was a better instructor than I would have been if I stayed in the local area doing basic things over and over. Those ferry flights were not assigned to me, I asked (begged) for them. Every trip brought new weather challenges, new airports, new terrain.
Bob
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Some folks who stay local don't even pay that much attention. Haha. They don't know local customs or landmarks.
BrianNC
En-Route
Heck, I got trained for my private when the long solo XC had to be 300 miles. Mine was over 400 miles total and in a 152. Back when student pilots were REAL men (and women)
!
BrianNC
En-Route
Heck, I got trained for my private when the long solo XC had to be 300 miles. Mine was over 400 miles total and in a 152. Back when student pilots were REAL men (and women)
Something I had forgotten about this. Several years later I went to finish up my private (taking a long time due to money) so I went to a flight school in Macon, GA for a week to finish it off. Reviewing my logbook they could not find an endorsement from my instructor for my previous long XC that I talked about above. So I had to do the solo long XC all over again. So this time it was in a 172, and other over 400 mile XC. That one was memorable because I got started late and it got dark on me before I could get back. It was also very hazy. If I'd kept flying it would have basically been an instrument flight. So I had to spend the night at a FBO. The instructor pleaded with me to get the plane back (I think he thought he was going to get into trouble) but I refused. I would have been an accident waiting to happen. Got up the next morning and finished it. One of the other instructors told me I was right not to fly if I didn't feel I was capable. And I still didn't finish my private that week due to that. It would be several years later after that I got it. It actually took my 23 years to get my private. lol.
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
It's change from 300 miles?Heck, I got trained for my private when the long solo XC had to be 300 miles. Mine was over 400 miles total and in a 152. Back when student pilots were REAL men (and women)
Skates97
Pre-takeoff checklist
Long XC Solo Requirement:
1 solo cross country flight of at least 150nm total distance with full stop landings at 3 points and one segment of at least 50nm between T/O and landings
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yep. 100 miles dual at night, 150 miles solo daytime. And that is 150 total, not 150 from home. One of those "If you can't do this successfully, you might want to find another hobby" things. *
§61.109 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—
(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes—
(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance
(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least—
(ii) One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations
* Like, say, refraining from saying "Any traffic in the area, please advise." LOL
BrianNC
En-Route
I don't remember there being a 100 mile dual night XC back then though. Just the 3 hours of night flight.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
I had anxious students fly to an airport 52 miles north of home, then back south over the home airport to an airport 55 miles south. Then 55 miles home. 162 mile cross country trip and never further than 55 miles from home.
denverpilot
Tied Down
It's been controversial.
I always felt like 300 miles gave a greater chance of getting into a different weather pattern and therefore made more sense as an XC than these short things.
This is why you see so many "I'm making my first REAL XC "type posts in forums nowadays as compared to back then, I think, too.
Of course with time builders headed for pro jobs in aviation, it's usually pretty easy to convince them to just go do a long one anyway. They need the time in the book, so why not?