One of those fun, which plane for me threads

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SteveinNC

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Steve C.
Ok...I've been toying with making a change. I've had my Cirrus SR22 for 4 years now. I'm a 550 hr private/IR pilot. I fly 100-150 hrs per year (and this is starting to be more consistently towards the 150 end), and have a few sort of standard missions.

I'm on the east coast (NC) and most of my flying is up and down the east coast (no mountains!) and as far west as Chicago. Not to say I haven't been further West, but it's rare.

I LOVE LOVE the SR22, and every time I do this exercise it keeps reminding me how damn good a value it is (a 2004 G2 with all glass, 170 knots at 13-14 GPH), but with a small change in mission the limitations are showing.

We've moved our boat down to Key West for the foreseeable future and I'm often taking 4 of us down there. I can't make that trip non stop. It's JUST over the bladder limit (4 hours and change) when two of us (60% of the time) and with 4 (the other 40%), I can't carry enough fuel.

So...we need the following:

1. MUST have a chute, be multi engine, or turbine (just my preference for the type of flying I do, don't want single engine piston without chute).

2. Must be 200 Knots or greater in cruise WITHOUT needing oxygen (so, it'll have to do that at 10k or below or be pressurized). This'll get us to key west in 3.5 hours (doable within bladder limitations)

3. Must be able to carry 800 lbs of people and bags with enough fuel to make it to Key West (700 NM) with an hour of reserve time.

4. $500k or less for VERY good specimen

5. If I'm going to upgrade, I certainly want FIKI and radar on board (most planes that can do this mission would have that anyway I'm guessing)

6. HAS to be a GREAT single pilot IFR platform. I'm spoiled with all glass and an awesome integrated system with 650's and DFC 90. I don't want to go backwards...so it needs to have this or be able to be upgraded within the budget.

7. Dispatch rate is critical to me. I don't mind spending a LOT on good maintenance and being proactive but it better pay off with dispatch rate.

Planes I've considered

421 - Does the job, but is really overkill (can't remember ever needing to fly more than 4 people). Concerned about a 30-40 year old plane.

Duke - Know nothing about these, but they seem to be the butt of all jokes re: maintenance and dispatch rate.

Older King air 90 - Budget? old plane, speed?

Meridian - payload and budget?

Baron 58 - oxygen required to get the speed?

Baton 58p - probably meets mission, but 30-40 years old??

Saratoga - not fast enough down low?

Mirage - love the plane, hate the single engine piston design and all that it's asked to do. With a chute...maybe.

Anyone else want to chime in?

Thanks!!
 
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:sad: I'm so sorry you are having such a serious problem.
I'm glad it's not me. :D

Here's a solution that may be cheaper. Move closer to Key West! I can make it non-stop in3 hours in my Cessna 172.

SteveinNC said:
Ok...I've been toying with making a change. I've had my Cirrus SR22 for 4 years now. I'm a 550 hr private/IR pilot. I fly 100-150 hrs per year (and this is starting to be more consistently towards the 150 end), and have a few sort of standard missions.

I'm on the east coast (NC) and most of my flying is up and down the east coast (no mountains!) and as far west as Chicago. Not to say I haven't been further West, but it's rare.

I LOVE LOVE the SR22, and every time I do this exercise it keeps reminding me how damn good a value it is (a 2004 G2 with all glass, 170 knots at 13-14 GPH), but with a small change in mission the limitations are showing.

We've moved our boat down to Key West for the foreseeable future and I'm often taking 4 of us down there. I can't make that trip non stop. It's JUST over the bladder limit (4 hours and change) when two of us (60% of the time) and with 4 (the other 40%), I can't carry enough fuel.

So...we need the following:

1. MUST have a chute, be multi engine, or turbine (just my preference for the type of flying I do, don't want single engine piston without chute).

2. Must be 200 Knots or greater in cruise WITHOUT needing oxygen (so, it'll have to do that at 10k or below or be pressurized). This'll get us to key west in 3.5 hours (doable within bladder limitations)

3. Must be able to carry 800 lbs of people and bags with enough fuel to make it to Key West (700 NM) with an hour of reserve time.

4. $500k or less for VERY good specimen

5. If I'm going to upgrade, I certainly want FIKI and radar on board (most planes that can do this mission would have that anyway I'm guessing)

6. HAS to be a GREAT single pilot IFR platform. I'm spoiled with all glass and an awesome integrated system with 650's and DFC 90. I don't want to go backwards...so it needs to have this or be able to be upgraded within the budget.

7. Dispatch rate is critical to me. I don't mind spending a LOT on good maintenance and being proactive but it better pay off with dispatch rate.

Planes I've considered

421 - Does the job, but is really overkill (can't remember ever needing to fly more than 4 people). Concerned about a 30-40 year old plane.

Duke - Know nothing about these, but they seem to be the butt of all jokes re: maintenance and dispatch rate.

Older King air 90 - Budget? old plane, speed?

Meridian - payload and budget?

Baron 58 - oxygen required to get the speed?

Baton 58p - probably meets mission, but 30-40 years old??

Saratoga - not fast enough down low?

Mirage - love the plane, hate the single engine piston design and all that it's asked to do. With a chute...maybe.

Anyone else want to chime in?

Thanks!!
Click to expand...
 
Really don't know much about the Aerostars...few things I've heard have all been positive. My perception of the lancair is that it's a bit too early to know how those things will be with re: to maintenance and reliability etc.

Would love to learn more about Aerostars...I wonder if there's an owner's group?
 
docmirror said:
Oh, this is soooooooo simple.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd.../1982-AEROSTAR-602P-SUPERSTAR-700/1296545.htm

And since it's OPM, it's fun too!

<edit; Not sure if the first one will make 700NM non-stop. this one should.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd.../1981-AEROSTAR-601P-SUPERSTAR-700/1317143.htm >
Click to expand...

txflyer said:
+2 Aerostar.

Thread closed. :D
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Yep, 601P was the first thing that popped in my mind as well. But it's going to be a 30 year old airframe.
 
414A or 421C will fit the bill for piston twins, maybe a Baron or a 310R with gobs of money left over. :D I think a 340 will do it, smaller cabin than a 414A, but same HP, pretty fast, still plan on burning 35-40 GPH at 200-220 knots. Once you put your wife in the back of a pressurized cabin class twin, you are committed, she will no longer like to climb over wings and step down into her seat, especially if she rides in the back!! :D

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-340A/1982-CESSNA-340A/1219879.htm
 
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SteveinNC said:
Really don't know much about the Aerostars...few things I've heard have all been positive. My perception of the lancair is that it's a bit too early to know how those things will be with re: to maintenance and reliability etc.

Would love to learn more about Aerostars...I wonder if there's an owner's group?
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that turboprop engines are the most reliable in the business?

The lancair airframe is also reliable from what I've seen (no personal experience.) This particular plane is a 300knot plane.

The "gotcha" on these planes is that they are not super forgiving. If you get too low and slow your in trouble. But I'd be willing to bet you could get a Ballistic Parachute on them.
 
N747JB said:
414A or 421C will fit the bill for piston twins, maybe a Baron or a 310R with gobs of money left over. :D I think a 340 will do it, smaller cabin than a 414A, but same HP, pretty fast, still plan on burning 35-40 GPH at 200-220 knots. Once you put your wife in the back of a pressurized cabin class twin, you are committed, she will no longer like to climb over wings and step down into her seat, especially if she rides in the back!! :D

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-340A/1982-CESSNA-340A/1219879.htm
Click to expand...

310 will make the trip no worries, but the lav is what makes it non stop with passengers.
 
docmirror said:
Oh, this is soooooooo simple.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd.../1982-AEROSTAR-602P-SUPERSTAR-700/1296545.htm

And since it's OPM, it's fun too!

<edit; Not sure if the first one will make 700NM non-stop. this one should.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd.../1981-AEROSTAR-601P-SUPERSTAR-700/1317143.htm >
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with the aerostar (superstar) in maryland. It's flown by a pal who flys it for a corporation. It has been well maintained and hangared. No shortcuts on maintence as the president of the company, son and wife fly on it. It would be well worth looking into. It located in Easton, Maryland.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I'm familiar with the aerostar (superstar) in maryland. It's flown by a pal who flys it for a corporation. It has been well maintained and hangared. No shortcuts on maintence as the president of the company, son and wife fly on it. It would be well worth looking into. It located in Easton, Maryland.
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Heavy case engines, cabin AC, big turbos, flt dir, aux pump for gear/flaps, Machen conversion. Shyte - I'm gonna hafta make a trip up for some crabs and have a ride in that thing. It's shhhhwwweeeeeettt. :yes:
 
Thanks for all the great info and suggestions.

Seems like doing a bit more research into Aerostar and the 421 is the way to go.

Just scared off a bit from the 30-40 year old airframes. Pretty hard to argue with a 421's value though...geeze...for 1/2 of a used Meridian you get a lot more utility ...just about 20% ish slower.

Not too shabby
 
So... You DO realize though that a piston twin is not as safe as your Cirrus?
 
@Vince - I guess that really depends on who you ask and how you measure it. The stats certainly show that twins are not safer that single engine pistons. I do agree on that.

Furthermore, the stats show that the Cirrus (even with the chute) isn't safer than other single engine pistons.

BUT...for me...I know these things:

For 4 years now, I've flown with an instructor every 90 days to stay fresh and trained. I know I can/will/do invest in training. To me, this means I am more prepared in knowing how/when to use the chute and I would also be ready and well prepared in a multi if something should happen to one engine.

A turbine is (statistically) something like 100x less likely (please don't call out my stats, I'm just generalizing and probably overstating it) to have an engine failure. There are only 10 moving parts or something!

So, for me I feel like a chute, twin or turbine is the way to go. I feel like I WILL BE SAFER in one of these.

I feel this way, but still readily accept the fact that the stats do not show this. Stats are useful for sure, but when I have an engine out over water at night...I'm going to LOVE having a chute or another engine.
 
The thing about a turbine, some of the moving parts are moving really fast, and are really hot operating in tight tolerances. Turbine parts are not cheap, stepping into a turbine powered aircraft takes you into the next level of magnitude of expense potential. Thing is, you may not realize the maximum potentials within your ownership cycle.

It's really a complex equation whether to go with a 421 or a 425 or King Air. The main factor though is capital risk. A good 421B is still half the price to acquire as a turbine counterpart. A top end 421C with trailing link gear, or a full on latest version of an Aerostar straight from the factory will cost about the same to acquire as Conquest or King Air around half time/cycle, not one of the nicest ones.

While a high cost engine repair on a recip is more likely, it is limited to a much lower upper figure than if you have issues with a turbine. Many times the best solution to turbine issues is to buy a used engine that has good time and cycles remaining. That is still going to cost a minimum of twice what it would to replace the recip.

Then there is the operational variable is the reliability factor and how it is skewed to be miserable for the recip. You can stack the odds well in your favor by running a bit slower than possible and Lean of Peak. You can run a GTSIO-520 to TBO, I've watched it done.
 
SteveinNC said:
My perception of the lancair is that it's a bit too early to know how those things will be with re: to maintenance and reliability etc.
Click to expand...

You and your family's safety seem to be a priority for you. For this reason you can skip the Lancair. It has one of, if not the worst safety record in GA.

Your mission, budget and currency screams piston twin to me. Aerostar, or Twin Commander would be my choice, but the toilet in back is a good point too.
 
I hate to say this, but I would seriously consider keeping what I had. You are operating so efficiently, with the safety of a chute, and an operational complexity that you can handle. Not to mention you have a newer, predictable, known aircraft.

I would rather find a really good lunch bathroom stop 2/3rds of the way. Or some place that everyone would enjoy visiting and make it part of the trip and the fun.

I look at it like this, depending on what you choose this jump could easily cost you $1200-2000 more per leg or $2400-4000 a trip. No small amount if you travel several times a month.

Not to mention all of the pressurized options are going to require a lot of insurance and training on a recurring basis.

Is the juice really worth the squeeze?
 
What is the cost to operate an SR-22? I haven't seen one for rent under $250hr. That should have it be about half the price of a 421.
 
@Alexb2000 - Yup..it's not crazy to say that for sure! The sr22 is so damn compelling. I figure I'm somewhere around that 250-300 per hour mark at 150 hours per year in the SR22.

I think the 421 or any of these others would be 500. So..it's another 200 per hour (but about 1 hour less travel time RT on the long mission)...

So, for Key west, SR22 cost, roundtrip would be around $2700
For a 421 around $3500

Directionally, that's probably about right. we're talking another $800 each trip, or around 20-25k more per year for this (after factoring in speed)

There's NO way to justify it financially...but, I mean...when has that ever been the benchmark? :)

For me, it's just as much the new experiences of high altitude, on board radar, pressurization, twin operations etc etc that gets me going!
 
SteveinNC said:
@Alexb2000 - Yup..it's not crazy to say that for sure! The sr22 is so damn compelling. I figure I'm somewhere around that 250-300 per hour mark at 150 hours per year in the SR22.

I think the 421 or any of these others would be 500. So..it's another 200 per hour (but about 1 hour less travel time RT on the long mission)...

So, for Key west, SR22 cost, roundtrip would be around $2700
For a 421 around $3500

Directionally, that's probably about right. we're talking another $800 each trip, or around 20-25k more per year for this (after factoring in speed)

There's NO way to justify it financially...but, I mean...when has that ever been the benchmark? :)

For me, it's just as much the new experiences of high altitude, on board radar, pressurization, twin operations etc etc that gets me going!
Click to expand...

What pilot doesn't understand that logic?:yes:

Well then I can't wait to see what you decide. You only go around once.
 
@alexb2000 - Roger that!

I don't know...I'm probably a year ish or so out. The other issue is that I HAVE to get this whole Mirage jones out of my system. I flew one once. I just love the damn plane and the price/performance...but I just feel like it's a bad safety decision. I hate to say that as it will offend others, and I'm not saying it's a mistake for anyone else.

I just know that if I got one...and I have an engine failure...as i'm trying to put it down somewhere I'll be so fricking mad at myself!!

Just feels like a safety compromise for price. I've been arguing with myself about it for a while now.

1st world problems for sure
 
SteveinNC said:
@alexb2000 - Roger that!

I don't know...I'm probably a year ish or so out. The other issue is that I HAVE to get this whole Mirage jones out of my system. I flew one once. I just love the damn plane and the price/performance...but I just feel like it's a bad safety decision. I hate to say that as it will offend others, and I'm not saying it's a mistake for anyone else.

I just know that if I got one...and I have an engine failure...as i'm trying to put it down somewhere I'll be so fricking mad at myself!!

Just feels like a safety compromise for price. I've been arguing with myself about it for a while now.

1st world problems for sure
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Steve-

I have looked very seriously at the Mirage. I know Larry at Cutter (Piper dealer in Dallas) pretty well. Here is his spreadsheet for the cost in 2011. Notice the insurance and training cost. If the Piper dealer gives you this, then it might even be a tad optimistic. Also consider the fixed expenses are based on 250 per year. I hope this helps.
 

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Alexb2000 said:
You think someone can operate a 421 for $500 an hour all in?
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Oh yeah, no worries, if you start with a good one. Fly 210kts LOP and you'll be under 35gph with the engines running fat, dumb, and happy. Thing is, with pressurization and a lav, you can get her up in the high teens (low 20 are ok as well) and take advantage of the TAS factor if the winds allow and stay there for the whole flight. Fuel and potty breaks don't just cost time, they cost a fair amount of fuel as well.

The key to flying any of the big recip engine planes is you cannot operate with the old "I didn't buy this plane to go slow" outlook. That is how these planes were always run and where they got their high operating cost reputations. Yep, if you run 75-80% power ROP, you are going to go 10-15% faster, but you are also going to go through much more fuel, not to mention a few cylinder changes during the life of the engine.

I'm not sure where between WWII and the late 1980s the shift from LOP operations to ROP operations happened, but I'm glad I learned from the old WWII guys how to operate lean because it sure has saved me a lot of money over the years.
 
@alexb2000 - thank you sir...that's super helpful.

Insurance is so high though because it was 1.1 hull value...I'd be at less than 1/2 that. I figure my current hull value is 200k...I ought to be able to get insurance at 2.5 x what I pay now...or close to it for a 500k hull value.

So..after that adjustment..and a couple of others...I'm pretty much right where I thought I'd be

Cirrus X
Mirage X + 15-20k per year (at 150 hours per year)
421 X + 25-30k per year (at 150 hours per year)

Maybe not exact...but I bet this is pretty darn close.
 
I've got nothing to provide to the thread except for what do you do for a living, and why am I not doing that?
 
What scares me is the "G" in GTSIO.....

421 v Aerostar; No comparison. If you need a potty for a 3.5 hour flight, meh - other issues. I'd be all over a P version of the Aerostar.
 
docmirror said:
What scares me is the "G" in GTSIO.....

421 v Aerostar; No comparison. If you need a potty for a 3.5 hour flight, meh - other issues. I'd be all over a P version of the Aerostar.
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There is nothing to fear in the G, in fact, it is a great hedge against detonation since you run significantly lower ICP for the same prop torque. Reduce power with props (pulling them back) and mixture for descent and keep them loaded forward rather than driving the engines with them. As you bring the throttles back on short final below where the governor limits the props, then you bring the props forward to be ready to go around. The 375hp at 3350 RPM of the GTSIO-520 is easier to produce than the 350hp of the TIO-540-U2A making it at 2500 RPM.

The 421 is also considerably easier to work on than the Aerostar. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the Aerostar, but when there are women and children involved, a Lav is a nice thing.

I think in general, the cost of operations differential between an Aerostar and a 421 isn't going to be great. The Aerostar will save some on the fuel bill, the 421 opens options for bringing kid's friends and more useful load as well as being quieter. The rest of the bill will be a crapshoot, maintenance wise the bills for an Aerostar and 421 are very similar, it will be between how good of a copy of either he gets whether one or the other costs more to keep flying. Fixed costs will be similar as well.
 
Dude, I know you won't let it go, and that's fine. I got no hours in a 421, and only a short flight in a 601P quite a long time ago. Yeah - potty would be nice, but looking at controller.com, I just don't think it's $150-200k nice. I can get what I want in an Aerostar minus potty and geared engines for a lot less than 421 money.

Meh - whatev. Post another defense of the Cessna, I'm done.
 
Keep in mind all the planes you're looking at normally have pilots with full ATP hours flying them who fly for a living.

A IR CPL with 550tt and no huge chunk of multi time in a KA90! Normally the only way that would happen is if the 550hr guy was A) pax or B ) cleaning the interior.

A SR22 to a plane in the arena you're asking about is a huge jump for you, are you sure you are ready for that jump?

Speaking of jumping, you're not going to find a professional level working type plane with the "help me" BRS button. If you are concerned you could get your family some training, earn your A license and all wear a rig in the plane?

For your mission I'd stick with the Cirrus or maybe a turbine 210 conversion with a stop or so along the way.

http://www.controller.com/list/list.aspx?catid=8&Manu=CESSNA&MDLGrp=210
 
docmirror said:
Dude, I know you won't let it go, and that's fine. I got no hours in a 421, and only a short flight in a 601P quite a long time ago. Yeah - potty would be nice, but looking at controller.com, I just don't think it's $150-200k nice. I can get what I want in an Aerostar minus potty and geared engines for a lot less than 421 money.

Meh - whatev. Post another defense of the Cessna, I'm done.
Click to expand...

:confused: How do you buy a good Aerostar for less than a good 421B? A good Aerostar sells at a $150k premium to a good 421B. I wouldn't buy an Aerostar that I could buy cheaper than a 421B, that's going to be an expensive plane to own.
 
Sr22 to a Mirage or Meridian is a huge leap?? I don't think so. I think it's the natural progression , next step. Hell...I think some of it (Meridian Turbine engine management) would be easier.

As for 421...it's a jump..no doubt...but so was nothing to SR22. Yeah...I'm up for it, because I invest HUGELY in time and effort for training and mentorship.

As for this " you're not going to find a professional level working type plane with the "help me" BRS button. If you are concerned you could get your family some training, earn your A license and all wear a rig in the plane?"

Well..that's just silly. I'm not trying to find the "help me" BRS button. I'm making a rational and careful safety and risk analysis. What I've said..is that I'd prefer to have the chute, twins, or a turbine. Because of that analysis.

In addition, this statement:

"Keep in mind all the planes you're looking at normally have pilots with full ATP hours flying them who fly for a living. "

I believe is not true at all. I've spent a lot of time on the twin cessna and Mirage/Meridian forums...that has not been my experience.

Not trying to downplay the jump at all...but to me, it's a logical next step from an SR22...WITH the right training , dual time, and mentorship.
 
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Ok,

My ATP point was more directed at twins, if you're going as for as safety analysis, then you're not looking at a high power advanced twin anyways.

I doubt a meridian would be a huge leap, and a turbine isn't bad once you get your head around start ups and watching the TRQ and ITT/EGT

Personally I wouldn't touch the piper I've seen more getting wrenched on then flown, I hear they fly nice though.

Like I said, check out the turbine 210s, that would probably fit your bill and I bet you'd feel right at home in one.

p210-exterior.jpg


p210-panel.jpg
 
Only a Mirage. Who needs a chute when you can glide so far from altitude. It's the right airplane.
 
I'm interested in knowing more about the piper Matrix. I could see myself stepping into that airplane next as well, but doubtfully the turbo prop $$$. It does seem like such a great setup. Is it worth the extra penny for the pressurized version?
 
Kevin - Could the Mirage do 800 lbs of pax and luggage and get to key west in 3.5 hours (700 NM) with 20 gals ish remaining?

Also..what exactly is the glide ratio?
 
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