One in four Americans don't know...

steingar

steingar

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…that the Earth orbits the Sun, according to this.

In truth, the Earth orbits the Lagrange point between it and Sol, but said point is sufficiently close to Sol as to be indistinguishable from it. At least, that's the version I recall from what little Astronomy I was ever taught.

Still, things are worse than even I thought.
 
Karen and I are catching up on Sherlock.

One episode has Watson berating Holmes for not knowing the earth goes around the sun. Holmes points out he needs to focus on relevant data and not clutter his mind with meaningless details.

Spoiler alert...








...in the episode a knowledge astronomy ends up helping Holmes solve a mystery.
 
That's worse than I would have expected, and of course not knowing the details of the source data I put zero faith in its accuracy. Given the state of our government and economy, though, nothing would surprise me. Sadden, sure, but not surprise.
 
This is a stupid statement:

"In other words, a quarter of Americans do not understand one of the most fundamental principles of basic science."

If 75% of Americans know any of the "fundamental principles of basic science", I would be surprised. For ex., how many folks know what charge is on an electron, where do we find the electron, etc. That is much more basic than who orbits what, hardly a basic principle of anything. This is more on the order of not knowing some bit of "common knowledge", like the name of the POTUS. Prior to Obama, my guess would be that at least 25% didn't know that either.
 
We don't know how many people answered incorrectly on purpose.

We don't know how many people really stink at taking tests.
 
Close the border, deport all the non european heritage people, and ask the question again. Ah shucks, best not, better, to not even think such a thing never mind say or write it.
 
alfadog said:
This is more on the order of not knowing some bit of "common knowledge", like the name of the POTUS. Prior to Obama, my guess would be that at least 25% didn't know that either.
Click to expand...

Prior to the first episode of "West Wing", probably most people didn't know the term "POTUS"... otherwise the following lines wouldn't have worked:

"Laurie: Tell your friend POTUS he's got a funny name, and he should learn how to ride a bicycle.

Sam Seaborn: I would, but he's not my friend; he's my boss. It's not his name, it's his title.

Laurie: POTUS?

Sam Seaborn: President of the United States. I'll call ya. "
 
steingar said:
…that the Earth orbits the Sun, according to this.

In truth, the Earth orbits the Lagrange point between it and Sol, but said point is sufficiently close to Sol as to be indistinguishable from it. At least, that's the version I recall from what little Astronomy I was ever taught.

Still, things are worse than even I thought.
Click to expand...

You're confusing the barycenter and the Lagrange point, but basically correct. The Earth (and actually the sun) orbit their common center of gravity (bayrcenter), which is 449 km from the center of the Sol itself.
 
steingar said:
…that the Earth orbits the Sun, according to this.

In truth, the Earth orbits the Lagrange point between it and Sol, but said point is sufficiently close to Sol as to be indistinguishable from it. At least, that's the version I recall from what little Astronomy I was ever taught.

Still, things are worse than even I thought.
Click to expand...

So you agree it's time for some serious education reforms? Throwing money at teacher unions has been an obvious failure.
 
LDJones said:
So you agree it's time for some serious education reforms? Throwing money at teacher unions has been an obvious failure.
Click to expand...

I doubt there is little short of cultural change to rectify the situation. We've become a nation who's population doesn't believe in scientific progress and doesn't fundamentally trust those who carry it out. In such an environment we will loose our scientific preeminence. Such is difficult to build and all too easily lost.
 
I taught Aviation a Meteorology at the junior college level in the late 70's/early 80's.

Preparatory to getting into climate, I would ask if anyone in the class could tell me why it was hotter in the summer than in the winter. "Because we're closer to the sun" was the most common answer.

Many did not know that when it was summer in the northern hemisphere it was winter in the southern.

Then again, I could not tell you coherently how soap works!
 
Hate to know the percentage that don't understand Evolution.
 
steingar said:
…that the Earth orbits the Sun, according to this.

In truth, the Earth orbits the Lagrange point between it and Sol, but said point is sufficiently close to Sol as to be indistinguishable from it. At least, that's the version I recall from what little Astronomy I was ever taught.

Still, things are worse than even I thought.
Click to expand...

Uh, pretty sure that is not right.
 
FastEddieB said:
Then again, I could not tell you coherently how soap works!
Click to expand...

The molecules have a hydrophobic end and a hydrophilic end. The hydrophobic end can interact grease and soil, while the hydrophilic end can solubilize them.

That's how I learned it grade school when I was young and adorable.
 
steingar said:
I doubt there is little short of cultural change to rectify the situation. We've become a nation whose population doesn't believe in scientific progress and doesn't fundamentally trust those who carry it out. In such an environment we will lose our scientific preeminence. Such is difficult to build and all too easily lost.
Click to expand...

In a nutshell.

All the $$$$ in the world will not cure a problem, if it is ill-used (exhibit A: the US
federal government).

When it comes to education, teachers and money do not create learning; you must have motivated students, and that starts in the home.

We're doomed.
 
steingar said:
I doubt there is little short of cultural change to rectify the situation. We've become a nation who's population doesn't believe in scientific progress and doesn't fundamentally trust those who carry it out. In such an environment we will loose our scientific preeminence. Such is difficult to build and all too easily lost.
Click to expand...
Nothing personal but science is corrupt.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Nothing personal but science is corrupt.
Click to expand...

Like I said…

If you really wanted a nasty case of a worthy scientist ignored for most of her career you might try googling Barbara McClintock, instead of some idiot nutcase getting airplay from the current batch of idiot nutcases.
 
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steingar said:
Like I said...
Click to expand...
Go knock down conventional idea that makes someone billions or suggest there aren't as many women in science because women don't want to be scientists at same percentage as men. Let us know how it goes.
 
steingar said:
…that the Earth orbits the Sun, according to this.

In truth, the Earth orbits the Lagrange point between it and Sol, but said point is sufficiently close to Sol as to be indistinguishable from it. At least, that's the version I recall from what little Astronomy I was ever taught.

Still, things are worse than even I thought.
Click to expand...
I guess that I thought that it would be a higher percentage, but does knowing it or not knowing it make any difference in a person's daily life? I mean, while I know it, I don't think that knowledge has ever helped me.
 
alfadog said:
This is a stupid statement:

"In other words, a quarter of Americans do not understand one of the most fundamental principles of basic science."

If 75% of Americans know any of the "fundamental principles of basic science", I would be surprised. For ex., how many folks know what charge is on an electron, where do we find the electron, etc. That is much more basic than who orbits what, hardly a basic principle of anything. This is more on the order of not knowing some bit of "common knowledge", like the name of the POTUS. Prior to Obama, my guess would be that at least 25% didn't know that either.
Click to expand...

I doubt 75% of all Americans can name the secretary of state, chief justice of he Supreme Court, or VP.
 
alfadog said:
This is a stupid statement:

"In other words, a quarter of Americans do not understand one of the most fundamental principles of basic science."

If 75% of Americans know any of the "fundamental principles of basic science", I would be surprised. For ex., how many folks know what charge is on an electron, where do we find the electron, etc. That is much more basic than who orbits what, hardly a basic principle of anything. This is more on the order of not knowing some bit of "common knowledge", like the name of the POTUS. Prior to Obama, my guess would be that at least 25% didn't know that either.
Click to expand...

I were in the homeschool and I know them there electrons be negative

Next thing we hear gon' be that the earth ain't flat. Haw!
 
FastEddieB said:
Karen and I are catching up on Sherlock.

One episode has Watson berating Holmes for not knowing the earth goes around the sun. Holmes points out he needs to focus on relevant data and not clutter his mind with meaningless details.
Click to expand...

Ha, I was thinking about that exact same episode.

A society does not need it's population to be 100% scientists to survive. In fact it couldn't survive that way - we still need garbage men, bus drivers, shopkeepers, and other such occupations that don't require a scientific understanding.

The bigger concern is that we have insufficient engineers and scientists being produced to meet demand in this country.
 
steingar said:
It would be somewhat more positive if you could point out my error.
Click to expand...

Lagrange points are points where a small mass object (probe, microasteroid, etc...) relative to the two orbiting large mass bodies will remain in the same position relative to the two bodies - in this case the Earth and the Sun. There are 5 of them with L1, 2, and 3 being in a line drawn through the center of the sun and earth, and are the least stable. L4 and L5 are 60 degrees and ahead and behind the earth (and share the same orbital plane and period), and are the most stable. So it would be a little hard for the earth and sun to orbit about their Lagrange points.

Chalk one up for what scientists know over the uneducated general public, like me.

Oh, wait...
 
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EdFred said:
Lagrange points are points where a small mass object (probe, microasteroid, etc...) relative to the two orbiting large mass bodies will remain in the same position relative to the two bodies - in this case the Earth and the Sun. There are 5 of them with L1, 2, and 3 being in a line drawn through the center of the sun and earth, and are the least stable. L4 and L5 are 60 degrees and ahead and behind the earth (and share the same orbital plane and period), and are the most stable. So it would be a little hard for the earth and sun to orbit about their Lagrange points.

Chalk one up for what scientists know over the uneducated general public, like me.

Oh, wait...
Click to expand...

Seriously?

He confused two terms, Lagrange point and barycenter.

The Earth does not, actually, orbit the sun. They both orbit their common barycenter, which just happens about 450km from the center of the sun. So, the earth pulls the sun over 500 miles from one side of the orbit to the other.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
A society does not need it's population to be 100% scientists to survive.
Click to expand...
I really don't think knowing something simple like this makes one a scientist. :wink2:

I know how to change spark plugs in my car but that doesn't make me an auto mechanic.

I know a piano has 88 keys but that doesn't make me a musician.

I know how stents are inserted into arteries but that doesn't make me a surgeon.

People should have a well rounded basic knowledge of many subjects by the time they graduate high school, much less college and all these questions are basic.

It also appears as if Americans have dumbed down since the turn of the century. In a similar 2000 poll only 20% of respondents thought the sun rotated around the earth.
 
EdFred said:
Still doesn't answer the question.
Click to expand...

Hint #1: Charles Darwin in a Fokker Triplane is circling my desk right now:

6477704061_78588210b9_z.jpg


Hint #2: A shelf in my library*:

9266467108_3bed3d794e_z.jpg


So, yes, it was sarcasm.


*Darwin's Black Box is an Intelligent Design screed. I own it because its good to try to understand the opposition.
 
steingar said:
I doubt there is little short of cultural change to rectify the situation. We've become a nation who's population doesn't believe in scientific progress and doesn't fundamentally trust those who carry it out. In such an environment we will loose our scientific preeminence. Such is difficult to build and all too easily lost.
Click to expand...

It would help if scientists, as a group, weren't so arrogant, condescending, and dismissive of non-scientists' ideas and beliefs. Whether you like it or not, and whether it makes sense or not, those things affect people's perception of others. This is even more so when people don't understand a learned individual's area of knowledge. Lacking that understanding, they tend to base their opinions about the science on their impressions about the individual.

-Rich
 
Bob Noel said:
Prior to the first episode of "West Wing", probably most people didn't know the term "POTUS"... otherwise the following lines wouldn't have worked:

"Laurie: Tell your friend POTUS he's got a funny name, and he should learn how to ride a bicycle.

Sam Seaborn: I would, but he's not my friend; he's my boss. It's not his name, it's his title.

Laurie: POTUS?

Sam Seaborn: President of the United States. I'll call ya. "
Click to expand...

No, I would not expect 75% to know what POTUS meant even today. I just wrote it that way my convenience. Prior to Obama, I doubt 75% of Americans could name the President.
 
JeffDG said:
You're confusing the barycenter and the Lagrange point, but basically correct. The Earth (and actually the sun) orbit their common center of gravity (bayrcenter), which is 449 km from the center of the Sol itself.
Click to expand...

And at what speed is the barycenter moving away from the known center of the universe?

It gets even more complicated. The earth's orbit is a wiggly line, caused by the moon orbiting it.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
And at what speed is the barycenter moving away from the known center of the universe?

It gets even more complicated. The earth's orbit is a wiggly line, caused by the moon orbiting it.

Dan
Click to expand...

No such thing as a center of the universe.
 
JeffDG said:
Seriously?

He confused two terms, Lagrange point and barycenter.

The Earth does not, actually, orbit the sun. They both orbit their common barycenter, which just happens about 450km from the center of the sun. So, the earth pulls the sun over 500 miles from one side of the orbit to the other.
Click to expand...

He's a scientist, he's held to higher standards. Oh, and guess what, 450km from the center is guess where...still inside the sun. So it orbits....dun dun dun...the sun.
 
I don't know if I should even admit it, but I guess that I am going to, a long time ago I went to college on the GI bill and ended up with a BA in English with a minor in History. At the time I walked across the stage and got my diploma, I knew an awful lot about grammar and punctuation. At one time my plan was to teach either English or History. But life took over and I went a different direction. At this stage of my life, if you asked me to diagram a sentence I'm sure that I couldn't do it. My wife, who was at one time a technical writer accuses me of misusing comas, of totally ignoring the use of the semicolon, and tries to rewrite my blogs. She tells me that I can't even make a paragraph. I certainly can't spell.

Everything I ever knew about the proper use of English is gone at this point. The reason is that in the many years since I got my degree, it has never been important that my punctuation or my grammar be perfect. In fact, for the whole twenty nine years that I was a police officer, I dictated all my reports and a record clerk typed them out. And I am none the worse off because of that.

I see much of science in the same light. At one time I was a whiz in algebra. I've never used algebra. I loved geometry in school. It does come in a little handy some times, but much of the geometry that does not deal with figuring out the slope of a roof, squaring up a deck, or plotting a course, is long gone from lack of use. Trig and calculus, you gotta be kidding me. I forgot them the day after the final. Physics has come in handy at times though. There is a lot of physics involved in getting a Jeep unstuck, but don't ask me to tell you which principles I'm using to do it.

My point is this, the total and complete knowledge of everything there is to know does not have any value unless you are using it. The ability to diagram a sentence, has no value to me. The ability to do a simple equation has no value to me. The knowledge that the earth circles the sun or how many planets there are and their names has no value to me. Yet people are always throwing out their knowledge of such things as a measure of their intelligence. To me, I consider it an obsession with the insignificant. :D
 
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