One big class action lawsuit coming up:

[deonb]

Ah. Is it an automatic? It sure be walkin, talkin and quackin like one. But...................

Good question. That will be for a jury to decide.

Their website still says: "Bump firing is a well-established capability that uses the recoil of a semi-automatic firearm to fire multiple shots in rapid succession".

I don't know what the legal definition of a fully automatic weapon is. But "Firing multiple shots in rapid succession" sounds like it would fit.

 

[Zeldman]

Automatic weapons are illegal, last I checked.

Did you mean fully automatic weapons?

 

[deonb]

Did you mean fully automatic weapons?

I did. Semi-automatic is of course legal.

 

[simtech]

A rubber band works just as well also.

Probably more reliable too. Ill have to try that one.

 

[simtech]

Fully auto is legal if you go through the proper channels and get it approved through the ATF.

 

[azblackbird]

I don't know what the legal definition of a fully automatic weapon is.

According to CNN it's the thing that goes against your shoulder and has a telescoping pad so as not to cause any undo injury to the shooter. And of course any AK or AR variant is automatically an automatic weapon in their view.

 

[deonb]

Ok, I'll buy the not advertising part. But I do know of lawsuits where the families of the dead wanted, but did not get, compensation from the car manufacturer, the dealership that sold the car, and from the salesman that sold the car. My question, and maybe I was not specific enough, has there been lawsuits against an automobile manufacturer after terrorist acts that a car was used to kill people? I am not talking about simple accidents where grandpa mistook the gas pedal for the brake pedal.

Don't believe there has been a lawsuit against an automobile manufacturer for that. But that is clearly outside the intended use of the automobile. The manufacturer is not explicitly trying to make money from people who use the car for illegal purposes.

If they however fit spikes on the front bumper and advertise how you can use it to ram things, they indeed would be held liable, even though the act itself would already be illegal. But I'm not aware of any auto manufacturer who does this.

 

[Ravioli]

Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms act. The law that shields gun manufacturers from liability if someone uses their weapons to commit a crime.

AKA: The topic that this thread is SUPPOSED to be about .

Anyone read that this is not a firearm?!? It's a part.

Now we can loop in whoever made the screws and the plastic parts involved. Yeehaw!

 

[Zeldman]

Fully auto is legal if you go through the proper channels and get it approved through the ATF.

Correct. Fully auto is legal to own. But you just can't go down to Walmart and pick one up.

 

[Lachlan]

Also what does "ban" mean?

We’re not allowed to talk about that here.

 

[SkyDog58]

I'm goin out for a six pack. Anyone need anything?

Better make it 12er!

Get some popcorn or chips & dip as well.

 

[deonb]

According to CNN it's the thing that goes against your shoulder and has a telescoping pad so as not to cause any undo injury to the shooter. And of course any AK or AR variant is automatically an automatic weapon in their view.

I'll rephrase. I don't know what the technical definition of a fully automatic weapon is that was banned by FOPA in the 80's.

This is actually important. Keep in mind the law would classify a weapon as a machine gun if it's "readily convertible" to a machine gun. If a bump stock conversion classifies it as a Fully Automatic Weapon, an AR-15 can be seen as "readily convertible" to a machine gun. (That's probably a stretch, but someone could interpret it like that).

 

[Ravioli]

Correct. Fully auto is legal to own. But you just can't go down to Walmart and pick one up.

Nor can you go to Walmart and use one!

Which is probably the "after the hysteria ends" view of this entire thread.

[Note: I have never owned a firearm of any type. I am not an NRA member. I have shot pistols, rifles and shotguns. I've fired an AR-15. It's fun.]

 

[Lachlan]

Natchez Shooters Supply has a killer sale on .223 and 5.56 including green tip that ends today. I'm well stocked myself, but could not resist another 2K.

Nice choice of words. Very nice, indeed.

 

[deonb]

Correct. Fully auto is legal to own. But you just can't go down to Walmart and pick one up.

It requires A.G. approval - for all practical purposes it's not:


18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts

(a)It shall be unlawful—
...
(4)
for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, to transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986), short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Attorney General consistent with public safety and necessity;

 

[Half Fast]

Good question. That will be for a jury to decide.

Their website still says: "Bump firing is a well-established capability that uses the recoil of a semi-automatic firearm to fire multiple shots in rapid succession".

I don't know what the legal definition of a fully automatic weapon is. But "Firing multiple shots in rapid succession" sounds like it would fit.

No, it doesn't.

The legal definition of an automatic weapon is one that fires multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger.

The bump stock simply enables the shooter to pull the trigger multiple times in rapid succession. Very rapid succession. But the trigger is still pulled separately for every shot.

The bump stock therefore does not cause a gun to meet the legal definition of an automatic weapon, and that's why ATF approved it.

BTW - automatic weapons are not illegal; they just require difficult and extensive background checks and approvals plus a $200 tax stamp.

 

[luvflyin]

I did. Semi-automatic is of course legal.

Hmm. I don't know exactly how these things work, but it seems that the recoil causes your finger to bounce rapidly on the trigger. If I'm guessing right, the argument that will probably be made is its just a semi auto that happens to be as fast as an auto, but a semi nonetheless. "If the finger is making the hit, then you must acquit"

 

[deonb]

No, it doesn't.

The legal definition of an automatic weapon is one that fires multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger.

The bump stock simply enables the shooter to pull the trigger multiple times in rapid succession. Very rapid succession. But the trigger is still pulled separately for every shot.

-and-

Hmm. I don't know exactly how these things work, but it seems that the recoil causes your finger to bounce rapidly on the trigger. If I'm guessing right, the argument that will probably be made is its just a semi auto that happens to be as fast as an auto, but a semi nonetheless. "If the finger is making the hit, then you must acquit"

I think in a criminal case it will acquit. Civil I'm not so sure. Civil juries are much more exact on technicalities and look more towards intent.

 

[Half Fast]

"Rapid shooting" does not require a machine gun. Please watch this video to see what can be done with a revolver:

 

[azblackbird]

"Rapid shooting" does not require a machine gun. Please watch this video to see what can be done with a revolver:

Here's Jerry shooting an AR15 against a "bump fire" AR15. Hard to tell who won isn't it?

 

[azblackbird]

"If the finger is making the hit, then you must acquit"

LMAO...

 

[Half Fast]

Yeah, Jerry's pretty incredible. Even a less talented, but skilled and practiced, shooter can still shoot a semi-auto very fast, though. Bump stocks eliminate some of the skill required, but they don't really make the gun shoot faster.

(I wonder when BATF is going to try to regulate Jerry's finger...)

 

[azblackbird]

(I wonder when BATF is going to try to regulate Jerry's finger...)

Many in the gunny world have often said his finger should be outlawed and registered as a deadly weapon.

As an aside, I knew within seconds of hearing the shots from the "psycho at Mandalay" that he was using bump fire stocks. They're not even close to being as smooth firing as a real auto is.

 

[Half Fast]

I heard that the NRA came out in support of regulations on bump stocks today.

Yeah, but you need to go read the entire statement from the NRA.

The NRA will use this as a bargaining chip. They will trade off regulation of a fairly useless, and uncommon, accessory (bump stocks) to get something much more valuable, like nationwide reciprocity for concealed carry. If trading off bump stocks will get my Florida carry permit recognized nationwide, that's a deal I'll take.

 

[azblackbird]

Yeah, but you need to go read the entire statement from the NRA.

The NRA will use this as a bargaining chip. They will trade off regulation of a fairly useless, and uncommon, accessory (bump stocks) to get something much more valuable, like nationwide reciprocity for concealed carry. If trading off bump stocks will get my Florida carry permit recognized nationwide, that's a deal I'll take.

Bingo!

 

[Ravioli]

"Rapid shooting" does not require a machine gun. Please watch this video to see what can be done with a revolver:

Woah... back the truck up there... are you implying that sport shooting might be a sport?

That's really crazy thinking there.

Next thing you know they'll have shooting in the Olympics. Maybe even Winter and Summer. Oh the humanity.

 

[luvflyin]

Woah... back the truck up there... are you implying that sport shooting might be a sport?

That's really crazy thinking there.

Next thing you know they'll have shooting in the Olympics. Maybe even Winter and Summer. Oh the humanity.

Bi-athalon with uzi's. Only the brave want tickets for the good seats

 

[Ravioli]

And before we ream the NRA too much...

Those darn Boy Scouts have not one, but FIVE merit badges for firearm use. The Girl Scouts have only one. That's just sexist.

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Shooting

 

[MtnMarcus]

Cool... that means the bump stocks I have on my AR15 and AR10 are going to be worth a at least 2 or 3 times what I paid for them.

I wonder if the 50 lbs. or so of Tannerite, or the many thousands of rounds of .223 or .308 I have on hand will double in value also.

You know what they say... buy it cheap and stack it deep.

Tannerite is pretty fun stuff.

 

[MtnMarcus]

These devices have been around for awhile and their existence was not much of a secret. The fact that neither the ATF or Congress took action is the problem. The company made a product, asked for an interpretation on it and then proceeded to sell it. Socially irresponsible but legal. Too many things fall into that category. Personally, I think bump stocks should be banned. There are only two uses for a weapon that fires that quickly. One is to inflict mass casualties against other humans. The second is so some juvenile fools can get their testosterone pumping because they lack other means to do so. Those who claim it is their second amendment right to own these are really, really stupid ass clowns. Congress if they really want to do something could have a single issue bill sitting on Trump's desk tomorrow banning these things. They should do so. I bet the votes are there. Of course, turtle face would probably do his best to hold it up in the Senate.

You've obviously never shot a fully automatic weapon. It's a freakin blast....and i'm far from juvenile. And I am pretty sure i'll do things that get my testosterone pumping till the day I die! I would however not have a problem banning or making automatic weapons or these devices illegal or at the least extremely hard to get.

 

[SkyDog58]

You've obviously never shot a fully automatic weapon. It's a freakin blast....and i'm far from juvenile. And I am pretty sure i'll do things that get my testosterone pumping till the day I die! I would however not have a problem banning or making automatic weapons or these devices illegal or at the least extremely hard to get.

Would a M60 out the door of a UH-1H Army helicopter count in your learned opinion?

How about a M-16 in full auto?

But you are free to think what you want.

 

[Half Fast]

There are only two uses for a weapon that fires that quickly. One is to inflict mass casualties against other humans. The second is so some juvenile fools can get their testosterone pumping because they lack other means to do so.

For which of these two purposes are police departments allowed to purchase full auto weapons?

 

[MtnMarcus]

Would a M60 out the door of a UH-1H Army helicopter count in your learned opinion?

How about a M-16 in full auto?

But you are free to think what you want.

Hell yeah that counts! Then why do you suggest only juveniles enjoy getting their testosterone pumping?

 

[azblackbird]

Tannerite is pretty fun stuff.

Especially when you make your own. Daniel's recipe is too insensitive.

 

[denverpilot]

For the type of shooting the guy did, a bump-fire wasn't even necessary... he wasn't aiming... could have just stuffed a little spring between two pieces of wood and shoved it in between his firing finger and the trigger for all it mattered. Spray and pray...

I'm still wondering if since he was a "big gambler" if his nice suite was comped...?

Hahaha... I'm sure the hotel PR people are freaking out about someone figuring THAT one out... and I'm sure he did get it comped. Hundred dollar hands of blackjack every weekend? Yeah... free room overlooking the strip for you, sir!

And if a bell-hop helped him up to the room with all of that crap in duffle bags? That building has a million cameras, and no video has "leaked" yet of some 64 year old guy dragging crap up to the room for three days?

Those are the most camera'ed buildings outside of certain government and infrastructure facilities in the country... and no video... hahaha... you KNOW there's some bell-hop in the video taking a nice tip for helping with all that crap...

If the REALLY GOOD casino and hotel security weren't involved, giving credit where credit is due... they have automated systems to send video to the PD there... and a LOT of high power lawyers and PR people... some schmuck would have sold that footage to TMZ by now... I bet there's been a BUNCH of threats... "You didn't see that video, and if you did, you don't work here anymore... comprende?"

But hey... what goes in Vegas, stays in Vegas, right? That's their multi-million dollar marketing campaign that's worked for years and years... that wouldn't possibly attract any bad folks, ever... now would it? No! LOL...

The best part of the whole thing? A week ago, if you ever happened to listen to country music, certain political types labeled you redneck, racist, all sorts of lovely things. Now they're sad for all the poor country music fans murdered...

So that's working for me... at least I can listen to the occasional country song, and not be a racist! YAY!!!

(Not that Jason Aldeen should be in any way labeled "Country music", but we'll let it slide if it gets the racist label removed...)

 

[sourdough44]

The Vet who 'invented' this stock had a $$ making venture. It seems this stock will be the sacrificial lamb shortly. He will need a new use for his manufacturing plant. It seems the thing to do now is grow 'medical' marijuana.

 

[SkyDog58]

Hell yeah that counts! Then why do you suggest only juveniles enjoy getting their testosterone pumping?

For which of these two purposes are police departments allowed to purchase full auto weapons?

I did it as part of my military training, not to pretend I was Rambo or whatever. I see no need for full automatic guns in the civilian world or for work around devices that allow them to fire at a cyclic rate exceeding what is normally achieved with semi auto. The possible exception would be for highly trained police SWA teams. Though I would prefer that the average cop did not have access to them as even in the case of police having them, their main purpose is to inflict mass casualties. Though many cops want them because they think they are cool and it gets their rocks off.

And before you start, yes I understand suppressive fire and the desire for weapons that at least match what the bad guys have but it is rarely truly needed.

 

[1600vw]

With all the camera's they are claiming this place has, no one saw this man hiding camera's in the hall way? If this was not an inside job, security at this place sucked. I really doubt the security at this place was that bad or sucked so it must be something else. IMHO this man was a scapegoat. It took more then one to do this. IMHO. For one you can not have your face looking out a window and watching a monitor. If we human's were that good and multitasking we would be able to drive and talk on the phone. We all know when you try to do two things at once things get missed. Seems someone saw that security guard coming. They did not miss that. Someone besides the shooter monitored the camera's. IMHO.
If you think otherwise try it. Put a camera somewhere. Now watch out a window and see if someone can sneak up on you and you see this in the monitor as you look out the window. I will bet dollars to donuts they sneak up on you and you do not see them coming.

Tony

 

[weilke]

It requires A.G. approval - for all practical purposes it's not:

You can't manufacture or sell new ones.

All the ones already officially sold in 1986 are still transferable. A $250 'machine gun stamp' from the ATF and about 9month processing time is required.

They are not cheap. Starts at about 5k for something like a Mac10 and goes up to 50k+and more for a MP5 or collector pieces like WW1 heavy machine guns.

 

[John221us]

With all the camera's they are claiming this place has, no one saw this man hiding camera's in the hall way? If this was not an inside job, security at this place sucked. I really doubt the security at this place was that bad or sucked so it must be something else. IMHO this man was a scapegoat. It took more then one to do this. IMHO. For one you can not have your face looking out a window and watching a monitor. If we human's were that good and multitasking we would be able to drive and talk on the phone. We all know when you try to do two things at once things get missed. Seems someone saw that security guard coming. They did not miss that. Someone besides the shooter monitored the camera's. IMHO.
If you think otherwise try it. Put a camera somewhere. Now watch out a window and see if someone can sneak up on you and you see this in the monitor as you look out the window. I will bet dollars to donuts they sneak up on you and you do not see them coming.

Tony

His hallway camera was placed in a room service cart and moved outside his door. And even if, as you say, they have cameras everywhere, they don't have someone watching everywhere all the time. They could go back and review historical footage, but it would not help in prevention.