Once in a lifetime sight

It's the opposite, but the pilot moves the condition lever rather than the power lever. Without airflow nothing happens no matter where you put the lever. 80 PSI (on P&W) is required to open the fuel valve for start.

Right, but airflow in a turbine is always a reaction to another input (even externally provided pressurized air) be it the pressure of fuel being burned and expanding gasses, an electric motor or start cart air rather than being the engine governing input like with a carburetor.
 
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Or the opposite. Power levers call for more air. More fuel is allowed when the air is available to properly mix.


Right, but airflow in a turbine is always a reaction to another input (even externally provided pressurized air) be it the pressure of fuel being burned and expanding gasses, an electric motor or start cart air rather than being the engine governing input like with a carburetor.
 
Moving the levers.

Ok, you move the levers which control linkage to what part on the engine that asks it to flow more air? More to the point, how does it prevent that air from getting there when it is not desired?
 
FTFY. ;)

I somewhat questioned the point of the Duke. A bit more room than a 58P with less speed, less reliability, and higher costs. It was tremendously underpowered, and should have had TIGO-541s or the 435 HP GTSIO-520s used in the Commander 685. Geared engines would have been nice for sure given the high RPM required in cruise with the straight engines.

Yeh, but it has an airstair. Hard to put a price on the cool-factor that adds. It's all my wife has ever asked for in a plane.
 
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And an incredibly priced mechanism to repair or replace when something breaks, along with a lot more stuff in the area around it. Can't remember which gadget is under the floor just inside the door, but a guy who was restoring one after import from Australia showed it to me along with the price tag.

Yeh, but it has an airstair. Hard to put a price on the cool-factir that adds. It's all my wife has ever asked for in a plane.
 
Yeh, but it has an airstair. Hard to put a price on the cool-factor that adds. It's all my wife has ever asked for in a plane.

Although the Duke might arguably be the least expensive cabin-class (if you want to call it that) plane with an airstair door available, there are other options that are only a bit more expensive, and much, much less likely to break on an hourly basis.
 
Henning, I am going to take a shot at this. A turbine is a normally aspirated engine. As the air thins the horse power decreases. On airframes with flat rated engines there is a limiting factor as to how much power is allowed to be used. Let me use approximate numbers for the Cheyenne IIIA since I am a little more familiar with it.

The airframe is limited to 720 HP per side. At sea level the engines are capable of much more than that with out damage to the gas generator. The restriction may be due to any one or combination of factors. Perhaps the gear box, maybe the prop itself. Could be the engine attachment or perhaps the size of the rudder. Maybe the factory does not want to exceed 720 per side in case of engine loss.

On take off we run the power up to the max torque which at take off prop RPM yields 720 HP. Your ITT will be below redline by quite a bit, depending on air density. If we do not touch the power levers the torque will drop along with fuel flow as we climb. Temps will remain mostly constant. At PERHAPS 10 maybe 12 thousand feet we will run out of climb.

In the real world after T O we continue to move the power levers forward to maintain torque. We can do this because we were only using partial power on T O. Those 720 HP engines are actually capable of making perhaps 900 HP at sea level. As we add fuel in the climb the turbine is generating more gas and turning the compressor faster producing more air flow. Part of the air being pushed through the compressor is used for cooling. In fact only the excess air is used for cooling. By cooling I am talking about the air used to shape the flame keeping it away from the burner can sides, and also the air going through the blades and vane rings. They are hollow to allow airflow for cooling.

As you climb you have less and less excess air. At some point you do not have enough excess air to maintain the ITT below the red line which makes you temped out and you will no longer be able to make 720 HP above that altitude.

I do not know all of the magic of the Fuel Control Unit but it senses among other things P1 and P2 pressure to know how much air is available for burning kerosene and reacts accordingly. The thing that MIGHT be tripping you up is this lack of air, increasing temp. It is not a lean rich thing. The air to fuel ratio remains constant and the pilot has no control of that. The increase in temp is strictly a function of available excess air for cooling. ITT is not the temperature of the flame but rather the various parts of the gas generator. Thus Wayne is correct in that the engine is in a way air limited. Once you don't have enough air for cooling then that is it.

That is the way flat rating is used to increase cruise speed. You use the excess HP you have on the ground to maintain the flat rated HP to a higher altitude.

Hope this makes some sense.
 
In my experience, turbine engines can procedure significantly more torque than they are rated for. The pilot must exercise caution and not overtorque the engines. This is where a FADEC is nice, since it can provide the limiting for you. On the Cheyenne II, it was extremely easy to overtorque the engines on takeoff.
 
Henning, I am going to take a shot at this. A turbine is a normally aspirated engine. As the air thins the horse power decreases. On airframes with flat rated engines there is a limiting factor as to how much power is allowed to be used. Let me use approximate numbers for the Cheyenne IIIA since I am a little more familiar with it.

The airframe is limited to 720 HP per side. At sea level the engines are capable of much more than that with out damage to the gas generator. The restriction may be due to any one or combination of factors. Perhaps the gear box, maybe the prop itself. Could be the engine attachment or perhaps the size of the rudder. Maybe the factory does not want to exceed 720 per side in case of engine loss.

On take off we run the power up to the max torque which at take off prop RPM yields 720 HP. Your ITT will be below redline by quite a bit, depending on air density. If we do not touch the power levers the torque will drop along with fuel flow as we climb. Temps will remain mostly constant. At PERHAPS 10 maybe 12 thousand feet we will run out of climb.

In the real world after T O we continue to move the power levers forward to maintain torque. We can do this because we were only using partial power on T O. Those 720 HP engines are actually capable of making perhaps 900 HP at sea level. As we add fuel in the climb the turbine is generating more gas and turning the compressor faster producing more air flow. Part of the air being pushed through the compressor is used for cooling. In fact only the excess air is used for cooling. By cooling I am talking about the air used to shape the flame keeping it away from the burner can sides, and also the air going through the blades and vane rings. They are hollow to allow airflow for cooling.

As you climb you have less and less excess air. At some point you do not have enough excess air to maintain the ITT below the red line which makes you temped out and you will no longer be able to make 720 HP above that altitude.

I do not know all of the magic of the Fuel Control Unit but it senses among other things P1 and P2 pressure to know how much air is available for burning kerosene and reacts accordingly. The thing that MIGHT be tripping you up is this lack of air, increasing temp. It is not a lean rich thing. The air to fuel ratio remains constant and the pilot has no control of that. The increase in temp is strictly a function of available excess air for cooling. ITT is not the temperature of the flame but rather the various parts of the gas generator. Thus Wayne is correct in that the engine is in a way air limited. Once you don't have enough air for cooling then that is it.

That is the way flat rating is used to increase cruise speed. You use the excess HP you have on the ground to maintain the flat rated HP to a higher altitude.

Hope this makes some sense.
Air limited is a function of design, air restricted is a function of control, I get it, I do know the fuel controller system on the TPE 331 10-U and I know it controls fuel flow metered by ambient and combustion chamber pressure, but what is being regulated is fuel flow, not airflow. Airflow is always wide open, reactive to the compressor which is reactive to the turbine which is reactive to the combustion chamber which is reactive to the compressor in a continuous loop of compression and expansion. In the end though fuel flow is used to govern the process while air availability limits what the governor can flow.
 
Not much to add there. I will however, just add that air volumn is a function of compressor speed and ambient air (altitude). The available HP is a function of air volumn available to the gas generator once you reach temp limits. There is always enough fuel available if you could just get enough air. That is why and I think rightly so that Wayne says air limited.
Getting to be a matter of sematics.
 
Air is not always wide open on P&W, but is moderated by bleed valves in NG section.

Not much to add there. I will however, just add that air volumn is a function of compressor speed and ambient air (altitude). The available HP is a function of air volumn available to the gas generator once you reach temp limits. There is always enough fuel available if you could just get enough air. That is why and I think rightly so that Wayne says air limited.
Getting to be a matter of sematics.
 
Wayne, I assume you mean modulated. However the automatic bleeds only modulate the air pressure going to the gas turbine to prevent compressor stall during sudden increase or decrease in compressor speed?? Generally going from idle to T O power you will get a little modulation but this has little to do with our discussion, I think?? I thought the bleed valves were in the compressor section not the Ng (gas generator)
During steady state the compressor is putting all of the air through the engine, for combustion and the excess for cooling. It is very possible I was taught wrong.
 
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A Duke, with the engines running and MOVING under its OWN power! Then, a few minutes later the unthinkable happened. It tookoff! I was waiting for the tail to fall off and the engines with rusted camshafts to stop working.

(explanation http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7798817/dukes-explained)

I got to observe the same from the front seats today. Our mechanic need to flight test the pressurization system in a Duke so I got the benefit of a familiarization flight. It's a pretty nice traveling machine. A little gymnastics to get in the cockpit, and lots of buttons and switched, but handled well.

I'll be happy to fly it again anytime!
 
I got to observe the same from the front seats today. Our mechanic need to flight test the pressurization system in a Duke so I got the benefit of a familiarization flight. It's a pretty nice traveling machine. A little gymnastics to get in the cockpit, and lots of buttons and switched, but handled well.

I'll be happy to fly it again anytime!

I've tried to figure out how Beechcraft managed to take a plane that is really quite nice and manage to screw it up so badly. For something that is not that large and does have a nice interior, they managed to make remarkably slow and a high fuel burner. A lot of it I think had to do with their engine choice (which was a poor one).

I'd love to get to fly one.
 
Dukes are pretty...but just as pretty is the Commander 700. In my opinion, at least. I think.

Commander700-Battistoni-Photo1.jpg


Not sure if it's problematic or not, though....
 
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