Once I have my PPL, I plan on buying. Suggestions?

[DFH65]

I was the treasurer of a club (and still on the BOD as VP) for 5 years, during most of that time we owned a 182 and two Archers. An Archer or similar is probably what you're looking at if you want to spend $35K and be equipped as you state.

Working backwards: You won't get your money back out of it. Figure that any money you spend on an airplane is flushed down the toilet, and be pleasantly surprised if you do get some money for selling it eventually. And airplane is NOT an investment.

You need to be ready, whether via savings or loans (make sure you talk to the bank beforehand about this) to be able to drop $25K on it at a moment's notice - If your oil filter is full of metal, you need to be able to overhaul the engine, and it'll cost at least that much. Depending on how many hours it had on the engine when you bought it, you might get some of this money back at sale.

Annuals will run you anywhere from $1500 to $8000 depending on what they find that needs fixing. Hangar rental varies widely depending on where you are - Anywhere from $75/mo to over $1000/mo. Insurance should be in the $1000-$1500 range the first year on that type of airplane. If you have an IFR GPS, the database subscriptions can run in the $600-$1000/year range. For an Archer, plan on burning 10 gallons of fuel per hour on average, and for the vintage of airplane you'll get with $35K, plan on $50-60 per hour in maintenance expenses.

Monthly fixed costs should be something like this - You can and should get quotes on these things to see what your actual costs will be:
$120/mo insurance
$300/mo hangar
$125/mo towards the annual inspection fee (this does not include squawks)
Total: $545/month, even if you never fly.

Hourly costs, in addition to the above:
$50/hr maintenance (whether you put this away or just fork over big checks as they come due, you'll average out at about this rate)
$55/hr fuel (assuming 10 gph at $5.50/gal - Adjust for your local fuel price)
$11/hr engine reserve
Total: $116/hr in variable costs

So, if you fly 100 hours a year, you'll spend a total of around $18,140 or $181.40/hour. At 150 hours a year, you'll spend a total of $23,940 or $159.60/hr. If you're like the typical owner pilot, you'll have years where you only fly 20 hours. That's still going to cost you $8,860 or $443/hour.

A better way to think of it might be this: The first hour is going to cost you $6,656. The rest of 'em are $116 apiece. Still, unless you fly a LOT, renting is cheaper. Owning is definitely more satisfying, but it's more work and more money. Choose wisely, budget wisely, do not EVER skimp on maintenance - If you find yourself wanting to do so, it's time to sell the plane.

Hope this helps! Now I'm going to read the rest of the thread and see if anyone agrees with me.

My instructor must be losing money on every flight renting me a 172 for $110.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Great advice and info. Have you ever owned a boat? sits all winter long, you make payments, you pay insurance, storage etc. pull the boat out for usage and stuff is broken, fit it, pay for it and so on and so on. Seems a lot like what an airplane would be. At least in my opinion. I have some buddies that are A&P's and can do the oil changes, fix small things etc. Annuals are done somewhere else. Am I way off base here? My pilot owner buddies state that if you own a business you can use the writeoffs, sure, but you have to have the income in the business to write it off. This doesnt concern me, I am sure you can make a shell company and write it off though there as well.

Yep, owned lots of boats, from whitewater kayaks to towered wake board boats, and, without exception, EVERY single one of them I have ever owned "lost" me money. Wait, on second thought, I think I bought an Aire SuperPuma that I actually sold for more money than I paid for it.

And, every boat with a motor cost a bunch to maintain, and, there was always something, but, it was always worth the cost to be able to take a boat load of kids, friends, and family out on the lake and teach them to surf or board. Lots of kids have those memories thanks to some of the boats I have owned.

And, luckily, after a few months, I forget what it cost me to winterize it the October prior, can't remember what it cost to re-do the upholstery, can't remember what it cost to replace the amp on the stereo.

I think I am more and more in the school of thought of don't plan for expenses, just roll with them and fix them. Guys that put an engine reserve account, and a maintenance reserve account are likely sabotaging their fun of flying.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Great info right there!!! Thats what i needed. Question though, what do you do if no rentals are available in the area?? Is partnering up a good idea? I am at least 50 miles to my closest rental and CFI, hate the drive but love flying and my CFI is great.

Partnering, if you find the right people and put together the right agreement, can be great. Even just one other partner makes the fixed costs get cut in half and won't impact availability much. More partners = more headaches, but maybe that $35K gets you a nice cross-country airplane instead of a trainer-variety plane.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My instructor must be losing money on every flight renting me a 172 for $110.

Naah... Put enough hours on the plane and the cost keeps going down. There are rentals that fly over 1000 hours/year, dropping the fixed costs into the sub-$10/hr range. Plus, usually the FBO that's renting planes will have their own hangars (no extra hangar rent) and their own shop (much reduced maintenance costs).

 

[DFH65]

Naah... Put enough hours on the plane and the cost keeps going down. There are rentals that fly over 1000 hours/year, dropping the fixed costs into the sub-$10/hr range. Plus, usually the FBO that's renting planes will have their own hangars (no extra hangar rent) and their own shop (much reduced maintenance costs).

Not the case with the local guy semi-retired with only a few students but I know what you mean.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not the case with the local guy semi-retired with only a few students but I know what you mean.

Probably still getting more hours than a single owner would, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's doing a lot of the wrenching himself.

When those guys go out of business, GA will be in a very bad place!

 

[muleywannabe]

Great info here guys. thank you. I just see a lot of negativity towards ownership and no one really has the magical number of what it really costs.

In a not so perfect world scenario, what should your yearly maintenance costs be? throw the fixed costs out of the window because there are way too many variables depending on where you live and so on. Those don't bother me a bit and who cares, its an airplane used for fun, what is the cost of fun???? Priceless!
Its the common misunderstood maintenance that is the ultimate unknown. I dont understand how owning an aircraft and flying it 50-100 hours a year can be a big maintenance issue if you buy it right and the aircraft was taken care of properly and stored properly. Stuff breaks, I get it, when it breaks, it cost you money, I get that too. Do you spend $6,000 a year in maintenance on average? or is it more like $500 a year because you only flew 50 hours and nothing broke or does stuff break every time you fly? no one seems to have an answer for that, or does that answer even exist?

 

[coloradobluesky]

Engine rebuild is a 'delayed' maintenance item. The 0-360 in my airplane cost $35000 to rebuild. It went for 3000 hours, so that is $15 an hour (always round UP).

The other maintenance depends on how many accessories the airplane has. If it has dual alternators and batteries, air conditioning, turbo and deice and is stuffed with avionics that is different that a plane with VFR instruments and a radio and transponder and simple everything else. Oh, and gear has maintenance.

For a 172 class, with IFR instruments maybe $30 an hour for gyros, radios, avionics, tires brakes and lights.

Also, seems like you're always buying something new, an IPAD or GPS and paying for more training etc.

Just look at the rental. That's as close an estimate as you can get. Figure gas, insurance, annual etc. Look at the usage chart and figure how many hours that rental is flying. The equation is y = (mx + b)/x where b are the fixed cost and m is hourly cost and x is the hours. Figure out everything else and whatever is left over is maintenance! And maintenance is the big unknown.

It always seems to cost more than you've figured.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

I think you missed the point. If you own a plane, there's a chance that you MIGHT find yourself in the position to overhaul an engine. If this happens, you have only two choices; fix it or sell it. If you try to sell a plane with no engine, you're really talking salvage value. The other option is to fix it. That's where the 20-30K comes in. I've known folks that had financed a plane. They enjoyed it for several years, but then hit the dreaded overhaul. That's why my personal thought is that you need to be able to swing a big expense like an overhaul. That's why I'd rather finance a plane and have the overhaul money in the bank than pay cash and not have the ability to fund a major expense. If you can pay cash for both, do it.

I was lucky and I was never forced to pay for an overhaul.

I fully agree that the market doesn't give you full credit for the cost of an engine overhaul. I want to say that Vref only gives a credit of 11K for an overhaul.

It is funny, but you sure can't see a pattern of planes with run out, past TBO engines being discounted $20-30k.

The difference between a 500hr engine and a 1200hr engine and a 1800 hr engine is seems more along the lines of $5k or less.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Great info here guys. thank you. I just see a lot of negativity towards ownership and no one really has the magical number of what it really costs.

That's because there is no "magical number". It costs what it costs.

In a not so perfect world scenario, what should your yearly maintenance costs be? throw the fixed costs out of the window because there are way too many variables depending on where you live and so on.

There are WAY more variables in maintenance than there are in fixed costs. You can make some phone calls today and have a great idea of what your fixed costs will be.

Maintenance, OTOH, is completely unknown. You can have a year where you spend $1500, or you may have a year where you spend more than you bought the plane for. You buy a $35K airplane and it needs a new engine tomorrow, there goes another $35K. Next month, it might need new fuel bladders - There goes another several thousand. I've seen an intermittent audio panel problem (or at least, that's how it manifested itself) turn into a $3K wiring harness replacement.

You can plan on $1500/yr plus $50/hr in maintenance for a simple single, but you need to be ready to drop $35K on it at the drop of a hat if necessary. That's about as close as you can get to a "magical number."

Its the common misunderstood maintenance that is the ultimate unknown. I dont understand how owning an aircraft and flying it 50-100 hours a year can be a big maintenance issue if you buy it right and the aircraft was taken care of properly and stored properly. Stuff breaks, I get it, when it breaks, it cost you money, I get that too.

So you don't understand, but you get it. Now I'm confused!

If you buy it right and the plane was taken care of properly and stored properly, you may still need to drop $35K on it tomorrow. Stuff breaks... Oh wait, you get that. Buying an airplane that wasn't cared for properly simply raises the chances that you'll have to do something expensive sooner rather than later.

Do you spend $6,000 a year in maintenance on average?

I would say that with the type of airplanes we're talking about here - Simple singles under 200hp - To plan on maybe $8K your first year and $5K/year after that. But again - Averages mean nothing if your engine craps out tomorrow and you're not prepared to fix it.

or is it more like $500 a year because you only flew 50 hours and nothing broke or does stuff break every time you fly?

If you fly less, you'll spend more in maintenance. And I don't mean on an hourly basis. It's good for planes to fly them. There's a point of diminishing returns on the upper side as well, but it's way more than you and your partners will ever fly.

You'll generally spend $1500 on an annual inspection with no squawks - Maybe $1000 if you find an old semi-retired A&P who just does it for flying money. But there will be squawks on the annual and all year long - Stuff won't break every time you fly, but it'll break eventually.

no one seems to have an answer for that, or does that answer even exist?

The answer does not exist, which is why nobody has the answer. If you can't find or shop for the money it takes to replace an engine tomorrow, ownership is not for you.

OTOH, if you have the money available somewhere and can take that hit if/when you need to, and you understand that ownership is for the sake of convenience, availability, and just pure awesomeness that you have an plane that is YOURS, go for it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I fully agree that the market doesn't give you full credit for the cost of an engine overhaul. I want to say that Vref only gives a credit of 11K for an overhaul.

Vref actually does give you full credit for an overhaul. Their prices assume an engine exactly halfway to TBO, and the price it gives you is adjusted by (Overhaul Cost/Total TBO hours) per hour.

Their overhaul costs, however, are pretty much just what the engine shop gets, not the cost for R&R, etc.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

I'm bullish on aircraft ownership for those that can afford it. What saddens me is when I see folks get in over their heads.

I'm even more bullish on partnerships. When they work, they work great. When they don't, it seems to boil down to not having a good, written agreement. It's not for everyone, but it can put you at the controls of a plane, or a better plane than what you could afford otherwise. Take big numbers and divide it by two or three and you can get affordable flying.

You'll always have to pay for fuel, oil and any reserves you hold back. Everything else is split.

Great info here guys. thank you. I just see a lot of negativity towards ownership and no one really has the magical number of what it really costs.

In a not so perfect world scenario, what should your yearly maintenance costs be? throw the fixed costs out of the window because there are way too many variables depending on where you live and so on. Those don't bother me a bit and who cares, its an airplane used for fun, what is the cost of fun???? Priceless!
Its the common misunderstood maintenance that is the ultimate unknown. I dont understand how owning an aircraft and flying it 50-100 hours a year can be a big maintenance issue if you buy it right and the aircraft was taken care of properly and stored properly. Stuff breaks, I get it, when it breaks, it cost you money, I get that too. Do you spend $6,000 a year in maintenance on average? or is it more like $500 a year because you only flew 50 hours and nothing broke or does stuff break every time you fly? no one seems to have an answer for that, or does that answer even exist?

 

[jonnyjetprop]

You're correct. Vref gives you $22K for an O360.

Vref actually does give you full credit for an overhaul. Their prices assume an engine exactly halfway to TBO, and the price it gives you is adjusted by (Overhaul Cost/Total TBO hours) per hour.

Their overhaul costs, however, are pretty much just what the engine shop gets, not the cost for R&R, etc.

 

[NoHeat]

Now I'm going to read the rest of the thread and see if anyone agrees with me.

I agree with you!

 

[NoHeat]

We bought a dog for about $300. It was just the beginning of a stream of unending recurring costs that rapidly dwarfed the initial outlay.

So my thought is that spending $35k to purchase a plane is like spending $300 to buy a dog. It's just the beginning of a much bigger stream of recurring expenses. If you really want the dog, you get it, but what you can afford for the initial purchase cost should not dominate the decision. Plan to spend much much more.

FWIW, I budget $35k per year to fly 125 hours in a plane that burns 13 GPH, including fixed and variable costs, and including data subscriptions and engine reserve, but not depreciation. That's for a 300 HP plane for a cross-country mission, serviced at an authorized service center. It would be cheaper, maybe half as much, for a smaller engine, no IFR GPS, a cheaper hull to insure, and a free-lance mechanic. Hope that helps.

 

[muleywannabe]

That's because there is no "magical number". It costs what it costs.



There are WAY more variables in maintenance than there are in fixed costs. You can make some phone calls today and have a great idea of what your fixed costs will be.

Maintenance, OTOH, is completely unknown. You can have a year where you spend $1500, or you may have a year where you spend more than you bought the plane for. You buy a $35K airplane and it needs a new engine tomorrow, there goes another $35K. Next month, it might need new fuel bladders - There goes another several thousand. I've seen an intermittent audio panel problem (or at least, that's how it manifested itself) turn into a $3K wiring harness replacement.

You can plan on $1500/yr plus $50/hr in maintenance for a simple single, but you need to be ready to drop $35K on it at the drop of a hat if necessary. That's about as close as you can get to a "magical number."



So you don't understand, but you get it. Now I'm confused!

If you buy it right and the plane was taken care of properly and stored properly, you may still need to drop $35K on it tomorrow. Stuff breaks... Oh wait, you get that. Buying an airplane that wasn't cared for properly simply raises the chances that you'll have to do something expensive sooner rather than later.



I would say that with the type of airplanes we're talking about here - Simple singles under 200hp - To plan on maybe $8K your first year and $5K/year after that. But again - Averages mean nothing if your engine craps out tomorrow and you're not prepared to fix it.



If you fly less, you'll spend more in maintenance. And I don't mean on an hourly basis. It's good for planes to fly them. There's a point of diminishing returns on the upper side as well, but it's way more than you and your partners will ever fly.

You'll generally spend $1500 on an annual inspection with no squawks - Maybe $1000 if you find an old semi-retired A&P who just does it for flying money. But there will be squawks on the annual and all year long - Stuff won't break every time you fly, but it'll break eventually.



The answer does not exist, which is why nobody has the answer. If you can't find or shop for the money it takes to replace an engine tomorrow, ownership is not for you.

OTOH, if you have the money available somewhere and can take that hit if/when you need to, and you understand that ownership is for the sake of convenience, availability, and just pure awesomeness that you have an plane that is YOURS, go for it.

Great advice. Good discussion here. I appreciate it a lot.