Old plane and avionics question...

midcap

midcap

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midcap
Let's say you buy a plane that has a shot gun layout for the panel and ancient radios.

Would a 530WAAS and G5 be all you would need to make your panel complete? What else would you want to put in there?

I am just putting a list together in case I find a sweet plane with an old panel.
 
Define "shot gun layout" ?
 
Ryanb said:
Define "shot gun layout" ?
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this

img.axd

Zeldman said:
IFR or VFR?
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IFR ultimately, what ever plane I buy is going to be a XC machine...Hell I might even take it to Turks and Caicos.
 
IFR, personally I would go with the 6 pack standard set up, and th4e GPS of your choice.
 
The two additions you mentioned in the first post would work. If it were me I'd probably just throw on an Aspen Evolution or something of the like.

One thing to keep in mind, try to find an airplane that has the avionics you want or close to it, rather than finding a ratty, old school set up and have to upgrade it all, if possible.
 
Ryanb said:
The two additions you mentioned in the first post would work. If it were me I'd probably just throw on an Aspen Evolution or something of the like.

One thing to keep in mind, try to find an airplane that has the avionics you want or close to it, rather than finding a ratty, old school set up and have to upgrade it all, if possible.
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That's what I hope to find, but I haven't seen many planes with a 530 WAAS and a solid state AI, unless they want big dollars.
 
midcap said:
the glass panel doesn't add much in the way of flying ease when IFR?
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It does, no doubt about it. Glass can also add a level safety with better SA; however, if you're on a tight budget, you can fly just as comfortably on steam, as long as you stay proficient of course.
 
Ryanb said:
It does, no doubt about it. Glass can also add a level safety with better SA; however, if you're on a tight budget, you can fly just as comfortably on steam, as long as you stay proficient of course.
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I am going to figure a G5 into my budget regardless and have foreflight stratus II as a backup to the back up.
 
Here's what we looked at adding to our Arrow with a 6-pack.
New Garmin GTN650 with indicator installed $16,000
Garmin Audio panel installed $2000
Garmin GNC 255 secondary NAV COM with indicator installed $6000
Garmin GTX 345 transponder with ADS-B installed $6000
Obviously we are reviewing our options. The only problem I've found with installing "less expensive" GPS is that it still costs $3000-$4000 to get installed. This is what's killing GA in my opinion. I can buy an experimental airplane, all of these radios non-certified, and install myself for less than this.
 
Ryanb said:
It does, no doubt about it. Glass can also add a level safety with better SA; however, if you're on a tight budget, you can fly just as comfortably on steam, as long as you stay proficient of course.
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Go read the data about the efficacy of TAA equipped GA aircraft regarding safety over steam gauges. You'll note the results. Each installation type has its positives and negatives.

Oh and like others have noted, buy the aircraft with the most updated avionics already installed. Let the previous owner bite the upgrade/installation cost bullet for you.
 
MY Cardinal has a six pack. Next summer I'll upgrade to the following: A used KX-155 Nav/Comm to replace my KX-170, a Flightline 760 in the removed second nav indicator and to replace my MX-170, a PS 4000 round in an empty hole and to replace my intercom/audio panel, I'll add a stratus ESG and maintain my GX-55 GPS. I'll connect my ACK406 ELT to the GX-55 at that time as well. I use STATUX for ADS-B In. That will leave a big hole in my panel for a glove box and the cover will have a mount for my tablet. I'll add an audio in and a couple of USB power outlets in the glove box.
 
Ryanb said:
It does, no doubt about it. Glass can also add a level safety with better SA; however, if you're on a tight budget, you can fly just as comfortably on steam, as long as you stay proficient of course.
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If yoh think glass = saftey, you really need to get some dual from a competent CFII, and spend less time hanging around avionics sales people, it's just a different way to conveying the same information.

Per the OPs question, depends on the existing panel and what's behind it, I'd get as close to a six pack as I could without spending too much money, honestly plenty of folks fly IFR just fine with a shotgun panel and I wouldn't hesitate to fly hard IFR just because it was a shotgun vs six pack.

I'll also echo what others said about buying a plane with at least 85% of the panel you want already in it, I'd sooner buy a plane with a timed out engine and send it out, then do a panel job.
 
That panel doesn't look bad to me. Looks like a PA24?

KX155s are really good radios and you have a DME. If you're worried about the shotgun panel, I might drop the cash on an Aspen and an ADS-B out solution. You'll still be able to use FF and your scan will be simpler.

That said, if you train on that panel I think it'll be fine.
 
First, you can't go wrong with a Comanche (with a good pre-buy from someone familiar with Comanches).....:)

IFR can be complicated enough without having to use a shotgun layout. I immediately changed my panel after I bought my Comanche 260B. I removed the ADF, and added a few things along the way. I think it is difficult to find a plane with the panel that you want already in it. I fly enough that I know what I want, and I want it my way. So, I put in what I wanted. I have no unrealistic expectations that I will get my money back when I sell, and since I fly a lot, safety and convenience is most important to me.

I would suggest an engine monitor. I fly LOP.
Obviously, you will need to address ADSB. I have not fully addressed it yet, although I do have a 330 that can be modified.
For IFR, I would suggest a HSI. I have an Aspen which I love. It is feature rich.
I have a 530 and had it upgraded to WAAS.
My 696 is older than the latest and greatest portables, but it provides a wealth of info which is invaluable for x-country. I have the XM subscription for wx and for entertainment on trips. I usually listen to comedy on the longer trips...
My panel may be over-kill with it's triple redundancy, but if I ever get lost or lose SA, then I should stop flying...:)

Good luck in your search. Comanches offer one of the best bang-for-the-buck out there.
63P old panel.jpg fin. panel 2.10 redux.jpg
 
http://www.navworx.com
For ADSB, couple grand and it's just goes off your existing transponder, also has the option for a built in WAAS if you decide to not go /G


Plus a used GNS and nav head and bobs your uncle.

Probably the best bang for the buck.

If you're in a area with enough VOR/ILS approaches you could also skip the GNS, but /G is really a game changer in IFR.
 
lancie00 said:
Here's what we looked at adding to our Arrow with a 6-pack.
New Garmin GTN650 with indicator installed $16,000
Garmin Audio panel installed $2000
Garmin GNC 255 secondary NAV COM with indicator installed $6000
Garmin GTX 345 transponder with ADS-B installed $6000
Obviously we are reviewing our options. The only problem I've found with installing "less expensive" GPS is that it still costs $3000-$4000 to get installed. This is what's killing GA in my opinion. I can buy an experimental airplane, all of these radios non-certified, and install myself for less than this.
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Those #'s are inflated because people pay it. think about it, $4000/$100 an hour = 40 hours. You are telling me that it takes a whole week to install avionics in an airplane. :eek:
 
ActiveAir said:
First, you can't go wrong with a Comanche (with a good pre-buy from someone familiar with Comanches).....:)

IFR can be complicated enough without having to use a shotgun layout. I immediately changed my panel after I bought my Comanche 260B. I removed the ADF, and added a few things along the way. I think it is difficult to find a plane with the panel that you want already in it. I fly enough that I know what I want, and I want it my way. So, I put in what I wanted. I have no unrealistic expectations that I will get my money back when I sell, and since I fly a lot, safety and convenience is most important to me.

I would suggest an engine monitor. I fly LOP.
Obviously, you will need to address ADSB. I have not fully addressed it yet, although I do have a 330 that can be modified.
For IFR, I would suggest a HSI. I have an Aspen which I love. It is feature rich.
I have a 530 and had it upgraded to WAAS.
My 696 is older than the latest and greatest portables, but it provides a wealth of info which is invaluable for x-country. I have the XM subscription for wx and for entertainment on trips. I usually listen to comedy on the longer trips...
My panel may be over-kill with it's triple redundancy, but if I ever get lost or lose SA, then I should stop flying...:)

Good luck in your search. Comanches offer one of the best bang-for-the-buck out there.
View attachment 48142 View attachment 48143
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wow, that is an awesome panel. I really like Comanches. I always wonder if parts will always be available for them.
 
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James331 said:
http://www.navworx.com
For ADSB, couple grand and it's just goes off your existing transponder, also has the option for a built in WAAS if you decide to not go /G


Plus a used GNS and nav head and bobs your uncle.

Probably the best bang for the buck.

If you're in a area with enough VOR/ILS approaches you could also skip the GNS, but /G is really a game changer in IFR.
Click to expand...

That's what I had in mind was a used 530.

As far as ILS approaches, KDTS only shows two RNAVs and no ILS. Which would be the airport that I would fly into often.
 
James331 said:
If yoh think glass = saftey, you really need to get some dual from a competent CFII, and spend less time hanging around avionics sales people, it's just a different way to conveying the same information.
Click to expand...
I mentioned that it *can* add a level of safety, for enhanced SA. Not saying that glass=safety or one is better than the other; hence the reason I wrote you can still fly comfortably on dials.
 
Ryanb said:
I mentioned that it *can* add a level of safety, for enhanced SA. Not saying that glass=safety or one is better than the other; hence the reason I wrote you can still fly comfortably on dials.
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I took it as safety because it's solid state and not vacuum driven.
 
Ryanb said:
I mentioned that it *can* add a level of safety, for enhanced SA. Not saying that glass=safety or one is better than the other; hence the reason I wrote you can still fly comfortably on dials.
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It can't, it actually removed a area of saftey, if you believe you will find any salvation for bad SA because you're looking at LCDs vs dials, you're asking for trouble and you fell into a trap based on a illusion capabilities based on how information is simply displayed.


midcap said:
I took it as safety because it's solid state and not vacuum driven.
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You just be new to electronics ;)

Both have failures, just different kinds.
 
midcap said:
wow, that is an awesome panel. I really like Comanches. I always wonder if parts will always be available for them.
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Haven't had any problems, yet. There is a great support network for them.
 
James331 said:
It can't, it actually removed a area of saftey, if you believe you will find any salvation for bad SA because you're looking at LCDs vs dials, you're asking for trouble and you fell into a trap based on a illusion capabilities based on how information is simply displayed.




You just be new to electronics ;)

Both have failures, just different kinds.
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no, I know they fail also, but I figured, having a solid state, a steam guage and foreflight would be triple redundant and have layers of safety.
 
ActiveAir said:
Haven't had any problems, yet. There is a great support network for them.
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that's really good to hear. When I saw the planes I fell in love with them, and their performance and useful load fits exactly what I am looking for. There one in the hangar at my CFI that I always look and ogle over when I go and fly.
 
James331 said:
It can't, it actually removed a area of saftey, if you believe you will find any salvation for bad SA because you're looking at LCDs vs dials, you're asking for trouble and you fell into a trap based on a illusion capabilities based on how information is simply displayed
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I beg to differ, it'll only take away from safety if you allow it, just like some of these new gadgets on vehicles. Having flown both glass equipped and steam airplanes, there are features that come with glass that you won't get with just your standard "shotgun" panel. Terrain, wx, and of course traffic as a few. They all help enhance SA, more than what you would have with standard steam.
 
So you wouldn't know about terrain without glass?
 
James331 said:
So you wouldn't know about terrain without glass?
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you'd have to get out the ole map I guess......not much terrain when I plan on flying besides some big ole antennas. They have a 2000 footer northwest of my home field.
 
James331 said:
So you wouldn't know about terrain without glass?
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That would be a good question to ask those who have done CFIT. You would think so right?

Maybe they had glass, maybe they didn't, but I'd rather have added features to help supplement my SA.
 
It's just having SA, when you're getting low it's going to be during the IAP, which has peaks and whatnot on it, also if you're flying the IAP or the missed, fly it right and you're not going to hit anything, I have yet to see a IAP that when flow to PTS standards will crash you.

If you like screens and gadgets, that cool, just don't think they make you MORE safe.
 
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