I'm looking for a scan, photo or hardcopy of a sectional old enough to still have a decent Class G to 14,500 area. It's for an article.
Old Mountain West Sectional
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Pilawt
These are from the Los Angeles Sectional 5th Edition (1969). Let me know if you need high-res versions.
Fabulous! Thanks Jeff. It's for print and not a large sample, but high res would be appreciated. What's the best way for you to get it to me?
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Pilawt
Glad to help. Give me about 15 minutes and I'll PM you Dropbox links.
G-Man
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I'll say it again - Jeff (Pilawt) is an amazingly helpful, well-informed, and extensive resource. Wow. This is a man who should never have to pay for his own drinks.
kgruber
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Jeff is a human aviation encyclopedia.
timwinters
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No doubt about that one!
benyflyguy
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More important, where do you keep all this stuff?
It's not just the materials but the stuff in his head as well. I still remember that thread asking how to tell whether a plane is a 172 or if it is a 182. Wave after wave of wrong answers came up and Jeff dutifully shot each one down. After a while, I lost count how many times he jumped in with counterexamples.
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Oh, just a few old books lying around ...
PoA fly-in meet up and party in @Pilawt's aviation library! You don't happen to have any Celine sheet music in that collection, do you?
idahoflier
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skyvector.com
Where do they keep the 20-year old charts?
I finally had a chance to look at that. Thanks.
idahoflier
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Sorry, I didn't know your requirement was for a 20 year old chart...
Sorry. It didn't have to be 20 years old. But it had to be old enough to have a decent amount of Class G above 1200 AGL. There used to be a lot of it in the inter-mountain west but with the way Class G has disappeared over the years, that meant a chart substantially older than the current ones SkyVector puts out there. The one @EdFred pointed out near the Mexico border is one of the few exceptions. There's a piece of Alaska which also has some, but there's nothing to go to there. If you can point to some on SkyVector, that would be great.
DutchRoller
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Maybe the library of congress or national archives in DC.
@Pilawt got me what I was looking for and the current one @EdFred pointed me to is a contender.
So there's no mystery, it's an article on a subject we've discussed a number of times through the years — IFR flight in Class G airspace where an instrument rating and currency are required, but an IFR flight plan and an IFR clearance are not. The graphic is just for an example of a place where it might have been feasible at one time.
idahoflier
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@midlifeflyer OK, I get it. I'm used to seeing a lot of Class G around me (Idaho). There are a few places where someone could do the topic of your article...
I'd use Idaho if it still had Class G above 1200 AGL. Actually above 2000 AGL since much of it is mountainous. If there is some, I missed it. Can you point out where?
What airspace are you in flying 500' over Denali?
Class G but IFR you'd have to be at least 2000' above Denali. Unless, I guess you were taking off from or landing on it.
Just one of those interesting places where things get different. All class A above 18000? nope you can be VFR (or IFR in class G)
The IFR regs require at least 2000 AGL in mountainous terrain. 91.177.
idahoflier
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No. Take a look at the Sectional legend. Basically all US airspace on the Sectional is Class E above 1200 AGL except where shown insude the "hard" line of a blue vignette. For an example, there's the area EdFred pointed out
Yep, thanks.
idahoflier
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OK, I stand corrected. I didn't realize Class G above 1200' has all but vanished!
I guess you can use the low altitude enroute chart to see it all...
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Those swatches of G in southwestern Arizona are almost (but not quite) entirely in 24/7, surface-to-the-moon restricted areas; and the one in eastern Arizona is mostly within a MOA.
idahoflier
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Go to the sectional and scroll down a little. There's a box explaining it's the Grand Canyon Special Flight Rules Area. That what the connect-the-little boxes border signifies - also depicted on the Sectional legend.
Oh, you're talking about that boomerang shaped narrow sliver? It's a narrow sliver of Class G. The vignette is supposed to be blue but comes out grayish in some charts.
BTW, if you think it's weird, it is. My best guess is that, since this is all regulatory and defined by the aviation equivalent of metes and bounds, it is the result of bad calculations.
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That sliver runs right along the boundary between ZLA and ZDV Centers. So I think Mark's guess of bad calculations in the boundary descriptions is correct. There are more than a few zigs and zags in state boundaries for the same reason.
The sliver is a mile wide at most -- it would be quite a trick to stay legal in IMC for the length of it.
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idahoflier
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Yes, that's the area I was referring to. It is strange. With so little Class G above 1200 AGL (and a large portion restricted as Pilawt noted) I wonder why there is any left at all?
Ghery
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I have the Seattle sectional dating back to around 2000 and I know the older ones have G space well above 1200 AGL on them. I won't be able to get them and scan that area until Wednesday of next week, however.
Thank you. I'd be interested, Ghery. The article isn't due until the end of the month and the specific route is a small enough part that I can make changes easily. I'm really just trying to get the "cleanest" one I can. Even a current leftover "zipper" Class G might work, but I figure I'll see more possibilities with an older chart.
Largely due to regulatory requirements (See FAR Part 73 and the FAA Order 7400.11 series ferinstance). The default is uncontrolled. The FAA goes through the regulatory process when creating, modifying, removing areas of controlled airspace. There is supposed to be a traffic and safety rationale. If you think of "controlled airspace" as airspace in which ATC has the authority to control traffic, and the basic idea that government interference should be minimal (yeah, I know), you can get a picture of the reason why this is the case.
So it's been done piecemeal through the years. There are leftovers although they get fewer and fewer. At some point, I expect there will be a final "cleanup" to get rid of the rest, except perhaps in some special use areas.
luvflyin
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The current, 11 OCT 2018-25 APR 2019 Phoenix Sectional has a piece. Look a ways Northwest of BZA (Yuma). It's not really there, a Chart Supplement has done away with it, but it still shows on a current Chart. There's some East of BZA also