ODP Uncontrolled Airport on IFR Plan

[steviedeviant]

I was watching a youtube video of a flight from KBCB to KJZI. The pilot got the clearance to of the following: KBCB to TABER v103 GSO direct, 6000 expect 8000 10 minutes after. They departed on RW 30. The pilot took off and called controlled and was direct TABER.

My question is around an ODP from that airport. It says for RW 30, climbing left turn direct PSK VORTAC to 4,100 before proceeding on course.

I am working on my IFR ticket now and I am based at a controlled airport, so I am used to that. Leaving uncontrolled is confusing me a little because in my silly mind, the ODP says fly to PSK VORTAC before preceding on course which would not make any sense because the controller gave a clearance direct TABER. But I thought I read that you can follow the ODP and would do so if you were not familiar with the area to avoid terrain.

Without beating me up too much , can you help me understand this a little better? I think am I confusing how ODP fits in with the IFR Clearance.

Thanks,
SD

 

[DoubleD]

The ODP is optional. If the pilot knows (s)he can maintain obstacle clearance, it doesn't have to be flown. On the other hand, flying the ODP doesn't require ATC clearance, though if it were me I would tell them my intentions.

 

[steviedeviant]

Thanks. That clears it up. I appreciate it.

 

[TommyG]

A ODP like that would have you proceed that way to give time for you to pop up on their screens. Kind of a slow down.

 

[aterpster]

A ODP like that would have you proceed that way to give time for you to pop up on their screens. Kind of a slow down.

An abbreviated ODP like that is to prevent you from flying into granite or a tall tower.

 

[steviedeviant]

The ODP is optional. If the pilot knows (s)he can maintain obstacle clearance, it doesn't have to be flown. On the other hand, flying the ODP doesn't require ATC clearance, though if it were me I would tell them my intentions.

Just one follow up: Let's suppose it was night and I was totally unfamiliar with the area. I am about to leave the airport and I am given all the information in my original post. The ODP does take me out of the way of the Direct TABER that was given...but let's suppose I took off and followed it as out of the way that it is, would it be correct/incorrect to that even if I didn't tell ATC? Would you also, if you were planning on flying this ODP, just file it with your flight plan?

I am guess I am asking because I want to make sure that while ODPs are optional, it isn't wrong to go ahead and fly it. This is fairly extreme example I found because it is such a long ODP.

 

[Initial Fix]

Maybe I’m missing something. The ODP for rwy 30 @ KBCB is climb @300 feet per nm to 2640. Where did you see the other ODP?

 

[aterpster]

Maybe I’m missing something. The ODP for rwy 30 @ KBCB is climb @300 feet per nm to 2640. Where did you see the other ODP?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just one follow up: Let's suppose it was night and I was totally unfamiliar with the area. I am about to leave the airport and I am given all the information in my original post. The ODP does take me out of the way of the Direct TABER that was given...but let's suppose I took off and followed it as out of the way that it is, would it be correct/incorrect to that even if I didn't tell ATC? Would you also, if you were planning on flying this ODP, just file it with your flight plan?

I am guess I am asking because I want to make sure that while ODPs are optional, it isn't wrong to go ahead and fly it. This is fairly extreme example I found because it is such a long ODP.

For those not looking it up, here it is:



Let's start with Wally's comment:

An abbreviated ODP like that is to prevent you from flying into granite or a tall tower.

I don't like the word "optional" applied to ODPs. Sounds too iffy to me. I prefer, "until ATC takes responsibility for terrain and obstruction clearance, it is a pilot's absolute prerogative to protect their life and the life of their passengers by flying an ODP." Period.

That's true whether or not you advise ATC you are going to fly the ODP, although it is always a good idea to be on the same page as ATC. You can put it in the comments in your filed flight plan. You can include that first fix in your flight plan. Or you can wait until you are airborne and at first contact include "on the ODP" when you check in.

 

[aterpster]

Just one follow up: Let's suppose it was night and I was totally unfamiliar with the area. I am about to leave the airport and I am given all the information in my original post. The ODP does take me out of the way of the Direct TABER that was given...but let's suppose I took off and followed it as out of the way that it is, would it be correct/incorrect to that even if I didn't tell ATC? Would you also, if you were planning on flying this ODP, just file it with your flight plan?

I am guess I am asking because I want to make sure that while ODPs are optional, it isn't wrong to go ahead and fly it. This is fairly extreme example I found because it is such a long ODP.

No need to file it. It never hurts to tell them you are flying the ODP. Having said that, this airport also has two SIDs. If traffic is a factor they will assign you one of those, or you could file the SID for your runway.

 

[Tommar98]

Maybe I’m missing something. The ODP for rwy 30 @ KBCB is climb @300 feet per nm to 2640. Where did you see the other ODP?

There is an ODP for rw 30. That’s what it shows in the TPP publication.Interesting question. I would probably advise ATC you’ll fly the ODP until radar contact AND on an established portion of IFR Route. Radar contact is not sufficient to ensure obstacle clearance:

AIM 5-2-8, “When used by the controller during departure, the term “radar contact” should not be interpreted as relieving pilots of their responsibility to maintain appropriate terrain and obstruction clearance which may include flying the obstacle DP”)

On the other hand this airport has two SIDS to use if it was an issue with night or whether. Clearly if it’s not VFR and you can’t see and avoid the obstacles, the issuance of an ODP means that use of that procedure is needed until established on an on IFR route segment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[luvflyin]

Just one follow up: Let's suppose it was night and I was totally unfamiliar with the area. I am about to leave the airport and I am given all the information in my original post. The ODP does take me out of the way of the Direct TABER that was given...but let's suppose I took off and followed it as out of the way that it is, would it be correct/incorrect to that even if I didn't tell ATC? Would you also, if you were planning on flying this ODP, just file it with your flight plan?

I am guess I am asking because I want to make sure that while ODPs are optional, it isn't wrong to go ahead and fly it. This is fairly extreme example I found because it is such a long ODP.

Did the controller say "direct TABER?" Or was it something like "cleared to [clearance limit] 'via' TABER V103 GSO direct?" If the controller said "direct TABER" he would have been incorrect unless including something like “Verify this clearance will allow compliance with terrain or obstruction avoidance.” If he didn't say "Direct" but just gave TABER as the first fix without giving specific instructions on how to get there, such as 'direct,' then flying the ODP is your prerogative. If he gave you 'direct' and you don't want to, you should tell him 'unable,' I'll need to do the ODP. If you decide you can climb fast enough to go direct, you are welcome to. If you want to comply with ODP because you don't want to risk 'rolling your own' then you may turn left towards PSK until leaving 4100 before turning to TABER.

This is not a Graphic ODP that is 'coded' so you can't file it.

 

[N1120A]

In this part of the world, I've never gotten an untowered clearance to fly anything but an ODP. We sometimes even get ODP clearances from the tower. Just tell them you'll fly the ODP and they'll give you a clearance otherwise if they don't want that.

An abbreviated ODP like that is to prevent you from flying into granite or a tall tower.

And possibly traffic coming off or arriving other airports in the area.

 

[aterpster]

In this part of the world, I've never gotten an untowered clearance to fly anything but an ODP. We sometimes even get ODP clearances from the tower. Just tell them you'll fly the ODP and they'll give you a clearance otherwise if they don't want that.



And possibly traffic coming off or arriving other airports in the area.

That's not the policy. If they are concerned about separation then they build SIDs, which they have done at this airport.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's not the policy. If they are concerned about separation then they build SIDs, which they have done at this airport.

Some, especially charted ODPs, might have an ATC function in practice. An example is the HICKORY departure at KHKY in North Carolina. It is typically assigned by the tower and even looks more like a SID than an ODP..

 

[luvflyin]

That's not the policy. If they are concerned about separation then they build SIDs, which they have done at this airport.

I don’t think they will always spend the time and money to build a SID if there is an ODP already there that will get the job done. While an ODP’s purpose is to separate planes from rocks, they can be used by ATC in the same way they use SIDS to separate planes from planes. If they are going to use an ODP to do that, they of course have to assign it and can’t assume the pilot will use the ODP just because it’s there.

2. Where an obstacle departure procedure (ODP) has been published for a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC clearance.
EXAMPLE−“Depart via the (airport name)(runway number) departure procedure.” Or “Depart via the (graphic ODP name) obstacle departure procedure.”
NOTE−
Some aircraft are required by 14 CFR 91.175 to depart a runway under IFR using the ODP absent other instructions
from ATC.

 

[luvflyin]

Some, especially charted ODPs, might have an ATC function in practice. An example is the HICKORY departure at KHKY in North Carolina. It is typically assigned by the tower and even looks more like a SID than an ODP..

No 'might' about it. They do.

 

[coma24]

Just one follow up: Let's suppose it was night and I was totally unfamiliar with the area. I am about to leave the airport and I am given all the information in my original post. The ODP does take me out of the way of the Direct TABER that was given...but let's suppose I took off and followed it as out of the way that it is, would it be correct/incorrect to that even if I didn't tell ATC? Would you also, if you were planning on flying this ODP, just file it with your flight plan?

I am guess I am asking because I want to make sure that while ODPs are optional, it isn't wrong to go ahead and fly it. This is fairly extreme example I found because it is such a long ODP.

Never wrong to fly the ODP until you're given a vector or another DP to fly. Now, if the ODP is going to take you in completely the opposite direction than the direct course from airport to the first fix, then without question, you should give ATC a heads up that you're going to fly the ODP. Unless their SOP calls for it, they're not going to ASSIGN you the ODP, but you're absolutely within your rights to fly it until you hear, "radar contact" and then later, "fly heading xxx" or "cleared direct TABER." ATC will only do that if you're above MVA, or within a DVA.

 

[PaulS]

Odp is optional, but you are foolish not to fly it in IMC. Just tell them you are going to fly it when you ask for clearance to go.

 

[aterpster]

No 'might' about it. They do.

You can't get out of KEMT without being assigned the ODP or a radar vector using the DVA. The airport is close to the LAX Class B, then as it goes east it is under that Class B airspace. Nonetheless, the primary consideration in the design of the ODP is obstacle clearance.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You can't get out of KEMT without being assigned the ODP or a radar vector using the DVA. The airport is close to the LAX Class B, then as it goes east it is under that Class B airspace. Nonetheless, the primary consideration in the design of the ODP is obstacle clearance.

Of course. The ODP is designed for obstacle clearance. If ATC also happens to see a traffic management benefit, naturally, they will use it.

 

[coma24]

Our EMT SOP (based on r/w data at the time our SOP was constructed) is ODP for all departures except for LAX arrivals who instead get a 190 hdg.

 

[Jim Carpenter]

For you KEMT flyers, I'm curious to know what the ATC clearance says when assigned the ODP? Since it's a text-only ODP, not charted or named, does ATC tell you to "fly the textual ODP...", or do they read the actual verbiage as part of a clearance?

 

[midlifeflyer]

For you KEMT flyers, I'm curious to know what the ATC clearance says when assigned the ODP? Since it's a text-only ODP, not charted or named, does ATC tell you to "fly the textual ODP...", or do they read the actual verbiage as part of a clearance?

Can't help with EMT specifically but like most ATC communications, the phraseology is standard and pretty simple. The ATC manual uses this example:

Depart via the (airport name) (runway number) departure procedure.​

It might be shortened though. Coming out of Grosse Ile, MI (KONZ) which only has one ODP, this past year, it was simply "Depart via the ODP."

 

[aterpster]

Our EMT SOP (based on r/w data at the time our SOP was constructed) is ODP for all departures except for LAX arrivals who instead get a 190 hdg.

That can't be that old, because KEMT's DVA is only a few years old. Prior to that, it was only the ODP to PDZ.

 

[aterpster]

Can't help with EMT specifically but like most ATC communications, the phraseology is standard and pretty simple. The ATC manual uses this example:

Depart via the (airport name) (runway number) departure procedure.​

It might be shortened though. Coming out of Grosse Ile, MI (KONZ) which only has one ODP, this past year, it was simply "Depart via the ODP."

The first part varies at EMT, depending on whether you depart Runway 19 or 01.

 

[aterpster]

For you KEMT flyers, I'm curious to know what the ATC clearance says when assigned the ODP? Since it's a text-only ODP, not charted or named, does ATC tell you to "fly the textual ODP...", or do they read the actual verbiage as part of a clearance?

I don't know. But, they must state ADAMM at 2,500, then PDZ at 4,000 (or higher, to as high as 7,000.

 

[luvflyin]

For you KEMT flyers, I'm curious to know what the ATC clearance says when assigned the ODP? Since it's a text-only ODP, not charted or named, does ATC tell you to "fly the textual ODP...", or do they read the actual verbiage as part of a clearance?

It's supposed to sound something like this

2. Where an obstacle departure procedure(ODP) has been published for a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure separation, includethe procedure as part of the ATC clearance.
EXAMPLE−
“Depart via the (airport name)(runway number) departure
procedure.”
Or
“Depart via the (graphic ODP name) obstacle departure
procedure.”

 

[N1120A]

That's not the policy. If they are concerned about separation then they build SIDs, which they have done at this airport.

Are you saying that the KEMT ODP is not meant to keep people out of the LAX and SNA arrivals?

 

[aterpster]

Are you saying that the KEMT ODP is not meant to keep people out of the LAX and SNA arrivals?

No, I am not saying that. ADAMM at 2,500 accomplishes that. The mover and shakers felt no need for a SID at EMT since the ODP accomplishes both obstacle clearance and procedural separation. Having said that it would be nice to have a SID for west departures in addition to the ODP to the east. But,such a SID would conflict with LAX Class B airspace. The DVA permits a right turn vector heading to as much as 264 degrees. But, I doubt SCT uses that provision of the DVA. There was a recent Runway 01 overrun by a departing Mustang. ATC wouldn't give him an IFR release on Runway 19. I guess jets departing Runway 19 have not remained clear of the critical Class B area.

 

[wsuffa]

KBCB does have enough obstructions around that you want to either be sure or fly the ODP. With sufficient climb rate, coming off of 12 is a pretty straight shot to TABER - the Runway 30 GPS approach is close to a straigh shot from TABER to KBCB - that can give you an idea of the altitudes. Likewise the BEMAR 2 departure procedure is essentially straight out but you gotta get to 4600 by BEMAR. For takeoff on 30, you need to watch the close-in hills and a couple of towers (plus the smokestack at the Corning plant). Or follow the DP. Watch the mountains south and southeast of the airport.

The airport gets a lot of traffic during college football season with lots of folks coming in for the Va. Tech home games. No surprise that there are departure procedures.

 

[aterpster]

KBCB does have enough obstructions around that you want to either be sure or fly the ODP. With sufficient climb rate, coming off of 12 is a pretty straight shot to TABER - the Runway 30 GPS approach is close to a straigh shot from TABER to KBCB - that can give you an idea of the altitudes. Likewise the BEMAR 2 departure procedure is essentially straight out but you gotta get to 4600 by BEMAR. For takeoff on 30, you need to watch the close-in hills and a couple of towers (plus the smokestack at the Corning plant). Or follow the DP. Watch the mountains south and southeast of the airport.

The airport gets a lot of traffic during college football season with lots of folks coming in for the Va. Tech home games. No surprise that there are departure procedures.

Makes sense. Also, to deconflict with KROA. Assigning a SID removes uncertainty for ATC.

 

[wsuffa]

Makes sense. Also, to deconflict with KROA. Assigning a SID removes uncertainty for ATC.

No question, although ROA doesn't have the traffic that some Class Cs have. I would guess that on football Saturdays BCB has more traffic, but that's just a guess.

KROA is in a hole - the only two good IFR departure runways are 16 and 24. 34 puts you directly toward a mountain, 6 has terrain that limits IFR. As I recall there are limitations on runways at night - 16 is unusable for landing at night or IFR, 34 is unusable for takeoff at night or IFR. The DPs for KROA do send you in the same general direction as TABER, so it's necessary for ATC to do some deconfliction.

 

[aterpster]

No question, although ROA doesn't have the traffic that some Class Cs have. I would guess that on football Saturdays BCB has more traffic, but that's just a guess.

KROA is in a hole - the only two good IFR departure runways are 16 and 24. 34 puts you directly toward a mountain, 6 has terrain that limits IFR. As I recall there are limitations on runways at night - 16 is unusable for landing at night or IFR, 34 is unusable for takeoff at night or IFR. The DPs for KROA do send you in the same general direction as TABER, so it's necessary for ATC to do some deconfliction.

Not the best place for a regional airport. Here are the Jepp qualification pages:

 

[dtuuri]

KROA is in a hole - the only two good IFR departure runways are 16 and 24. 34 puts you directly toward a mountain, 6 has terrain that limits IFR. As I recall there are limitations on runways at night - 16 is unusable for landing at night or IFR, 34 is unusable for takeoff at night or IFR. The DPs for KROA do send you in the same general direction as TABER, so it's necessary for ATC to do some deconfliction.

TABER jogs my memory. Back in the 70's before I was typed in the Lear, flying SIC with a captain assigned to train me for the checkride, we waited all day for our passengers to return from business meetings. Good thing we had the time for it because it took all day for me to calculate how much fuel we could depart with in order to cross TABER at MEA, IIRC. The question posed to me upon landing there was, "Ok, if you're the PIC how much fuel are you going to order, assuming you have an engine failure at V1, for the return trip?"

Coming up with a fuel load, I felt like this SIC coming up with a terrestrial:

https://bgflash.com/flash/2557/pixar-lifted.html​

 

[wsuffa]

Not the best place for a regional airport. Here are the Jepp qualification pages:

Yep, can be a real thrill-ride when the winds are up. I remember arriving there one time in the back of a 737 and hitting wind shear over Hershberger Road (inside the MAP) - pretty good dip of one wing, but the pilot corralled it for a landing. Not a lot of other places to put the airport, though.

Note the minimums even on the ILS. 700 and 1.75+ miles.

 

[wsuffa]

BTW, the LDA approaches have lower mins than the ILS.

 

[aterpster]

BTW, the LDA approaches have lower mins than the ILS.

Yes, different runways. But, the LDA is offset to avoid terrain, which makes it a real challenge in a commuter jet during low visibility. The RNP AR to Runway 06 is the best, but only available to qualified airplanes and pilots.