Obese people beware!

[dmccormack]

Well, this goes to question, should the airlines be required where possible to provide 2 or 3 rows of coach cless seating, only with wider seats, 2 to a side rather than 3, where if your lateral measurement exceeds that of a regular seat, you have to buy one of those seats at 1.5 times the price or a regular seat since it's 1.5 seats worth of space. Rarely does a flight have move than 12 really obese people. I think this is the most fair way to settle this all around. Obese people don't particularly like being squeezed in a seat (and I damn well have pulled that armrest down!). The paying for two seats thing doesn't work because there isn't an empty damn seat on the plane. The airlines will continue to fill every seat assuming everyone is 175lbs, and I have yet to see on a booking form for a flight the question "Are you a lard ass? Click here". The only way is to mandated the airlines be equipped with fat people seats which they charge 150% on, which is less than the 200% of 2 seats. Now the rest of us don't have to suffocate under the press of flesh melding us into the structure of the aircraft. I was one taken pitty on and given a jumpseat since I have a pilots license and security credentials issued by TSA.

How about if we let the market decide?

Independence Air was constantly late, had fast Food level employees, and had tiny (cramped) airplanes.

They failed.

 

[woodstock]

If I were sitting in coach and saw someone upgraded free to first class just because s/he couldn't fit in the seat s/he had purchased, I'd be pretty upset. The way I figure it, if you want or need two seats, you pay for two seats, and if you want or need first class, you pay for first class.

Why not move the skinny person next to them, to first class, and give the fat person your seat, along with their own?

 

[Anthony]

How about if we let the market decide?

Independence Air was constantly late, had fast Food level employees, and had tiny (cramped) airplanes.

They failed.

I think they all have failed.

 

[wabower]

I want to help design the little template you have to fit through, like the one for the roller-coaster, and put it right next to the scales at the ticket counter. Just run them over the scales and down the line. Us "big-boned" folks will naturally get an exemption, but I haven't figured out 'zackly how it should be worded.

Why not move the skinny person next to them, to first class, and give the fat person your seat, along with their own?

 

[ron22]

The two problems with the sample seat saying you must fit in here.
Im sure it will work as good as the carry on must fit in here. How often do you see people take carry on that you know would not fit. Now that the airlines charge for bags it seems to happen even more.
Second what about some guys? Yea my but will fit and I can put arm rest down but my shoulders are wider then the seat.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, this goes to question, should the airlines be required where possible to provide 2 or 3 rows of coach cless seating, only with wider seats, 2 to a side rather than 3, where if your lateral measurement exceeds that of a regular seat, you have to buy one of those seats at 1.5 times the price or a regular seat since it's 1.5 seats worth of space. Rarely does a flight have move than 12 really obese people. I think this is the most fair way to settle this all around.

What happens if there aren't enough people to buy those seats at the higher price? Airlines aren't going to waste space that they don't have reasonable assurance they can sell.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

On another note, the tenor of this thread is becoming unnecessarily cruel.

I disagree, Being "large" is not an involuntary thing, now when "large" people want sympathy I do not believe they should have it because it is their own fault. Being "large" is very unhealthy to your body and therefore "large" people are comparable to suicidal or alcoholic people for wrecking your organs, It will surely lower your lifespan and it is their own doing.

Now back on topic, the airlines DO need to adapt to the changing dimensions of passengers, "large" people do need to get places too. The most cost effective way to adapt though will be difficult to figure out. Perhaps planes separated from the fleet their selves would work. With larger seats on these designated planes may be the most cost effective route to solving this problem... Maybe not.

 

[tonycondon]

well if the tenor wasn't cruel before it is now...jeesh.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why not move the skinny person next to them, to first class, and give the fat person your seat, along with their own?

As I noted in response to Henning's story of that happening to him, that's fine with me -- the person causing the problem doesn't profit from the situation. Only problem is what happens when there's no first class seat available in which to put Ms. Slim when Mr. Big can't fit between the armrests next to her? Who gets the short end of the stick then? I personally think that Mr. Big should be the one de-boarded.

Of course, this creates great problems for the airline. I think that the best solution is for the airlines to make clear up front that if you can't fit in the seat provided, that's your problem, not the airline's or your seat-neighbor's, and you'll have to either pay for the extra seat, upgrade to business/first class, wait for a later flight with more room, or take the bus.

 

[steingar]

I disagree, Being "large" is not an involuntary thing, now when "large" people want sympathy I do not believe they should have it because it is their own fault. Being "large" is very unhealthy to your body and therefore "large" people are comparable to suicidal or alcoholic people for wrecking your organs, It will surely lower your lifespan and it is their own doing.

Austin, things are often more complex than they appear. Obesity is a rampant problem in the United States, thus the "its their own fault and they should suffer for it" mentality doesn't work for a significant portion of the population. A number of medical conditions can lead to it (including pregnancy), as can unhealthy lifestyles. Emotional problems are at the root of many cases, and are as difficult to treat as addictions and other diagnosable mental illnesses. I imagine by now most of those suffering obesity are well aware of its negative medical consequences, but are powerless to take positive action for one reason or another. This is certainly the case for the morbidly obese people of my own acquaintance.

That said, I myself would not support including obesity under the ADA, and do think that in some situations, such as cramped airliners, those us who exhibit this trait may have to make some accommodations for those who do not.

 

[poadeleted20]

Under the ADA, the question is whether the airline provides reasonable accommodation. That leaves a lot of wriggle room, such as requiring them to pay extra for the extra space they require. The ADA would only come into play if the airline flat refused to haul them, or made unreasonable conditions on their carriage. I suspect the airlines' legal counsels carefully investigated these areas and determined that their new policies were well within the limits of the law.

 

[steingar]

Is morbid obesity covered under the ADA?

 

[Tom.L]

... I suspect the airlines' legal counsels carefully investigated these areas and determined that their new policies were well within the limits of the law.

And well tested by Southwest Airlines for many years.

Southwest does it slightly differently -- they ask "customer's of size" to pre-buy two tickets, and then they refund the second one if the flight is not sold out.
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html

 

[poadeleted20]

And well tested by Southwest Airlines for many years.

Southwest does it slightly differently -- they ask "customer's of size" to pre-buy two tickets, and then they refund the second one if the flight is not sold out.
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html

That certainly answers the ADA issue:

Doesn't your policy violate the Americans with Disabilities Act or the Air Carrier Access Act?
Interstate airline travel is specifically excluded from Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) by Section 12141(2). Airline travel is instead covered by the Air Carrier Access Act, 49 U.S.C. 1374(c) and the regulations implementing the Act issued by the Department of Transportation as 14 CFR Part 382, et seq. The Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) preceded the ADA, and Congress excluded air carriers and other air transportation services from the scope of ADA. As regulated under 14 CFR §382.38 Seating accommodations (i) "Carriers are not required to furnish more than one seat per ticket or to provide a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has purchased."

And not many of us get into Part 382 of the FAR's, either.

 

[EppyGA]

The two problems with the sample seat saying you must fit in here.
Im sure it will work as good as the carry on must fit in here. How often do you see people take carry on that you know would not fit. Now that the airlines charge for bags it seems to happen even more.
Second what about some guys? Yea my but will fit and I can put arm rest down but my shoulders are wider then the seat.

Not to mention how it will hurt their self esteem having to do that in front of so many people.

 

[Everskyward]

How do airlines handle passengers who might need two or more seats for other reasons? For example, what would they charge someone with a full leg cast who needed a row of seats? Would they even allow that person on board for safety reasons? How would they deal with evacuation in an emergency? Just because someone has a medical condition, obesity or otherwise, doesn't give them an automatic pass to be on an airliner.

 

[jesse]

The airline should get to choose how large their seat is. Just as we get to choose which airline we decide to fly on. If you cannot fit in the airline provided seat you should have the option of purchasing an additional seat.

Really--the primary problem I see--is that the airline generally does not provide a method in which to purchase two seats if you're large--nor do they attempt to solve the problem in the booking phase. It is the airline's fault that they get awkward situations on the airplane. They need to address it BEFORE the too-large-for-seat person boards.

 

[EppyGA]

Austin, things are often more complex than they appear. Obesity is a rampant problem in the United States, thus the "its their own fault and they should suffer for it" mentality doesn't work for a significant portion of the population. A number of medical conditions can lead to it (including pregnancy), as can unhealthy lifestyles. Emotional problems are at the root of many cases, and are as difficult to treat as addictions and other diagnosable mental illnesses. I imagine by now most of those suffering obesity are well aware of its negative medical consequences, but are powerless to take positive action for one reason or another. This is certainly the case for the morbidly obese people of my own acquaintance.

That said, I myself would not support including obesity under the ADA, and do think that in some situations, such as cramped airliners, those us who exhibit this trait may have to make some accommodations for those who do not.

I've had this discussion with some folks. I was in school back in the 50's and 60's and I cannot remember too many, if any, kids in school the size of of some of the kids I see around today. It makes me sad to see what parents are doing to their children. I watched my own son who is 6'4" get to 390 lbs after he got married and it hurt deeply. I myself hit 261 lbs at my peek. Things hurt that shouldn't have and I was very out of shape. I took it upon myself to lose weight and get back to something that made more sense. From that my son also worked on his weight and has been down in the 270's and is doing triathalons now. My wife got very heavy and she has severe back problems, not due to her weight. Even she has been able to lose weight even though she can't go walking or exercise much. I can't understand why people don't take more interest in their health.

 

[wabower]

They've already done that to me with the baggage policy, and now the extra gouge. When I get on the plane for Palm Springs, it's for a few weeks with clothes and golf clubs to match. Even without the sticks I wouldn't be able to carry the bag due to the doofus shampoo rules. I don't envy anybody who has the seat next to mine, and in fact try to puff up like one of those toads (not that any puffing up is necessary) so they will go find another middle seat somewhere else.

As I noted in response to Henning's story of that happening to him, that's fine with me -- the person causing the problem doesn't profit from the situation. Only problem is what happens when there's no first class seat available in which to put Ms. Slim when Mr. Big can't fit between the armrests next to her? Who gets the short end of the stick then? I personally think that Mr. Big should be the one de-boarded.

Of course, this creates great problems for the airline. I think that the best solution is for the airlines to make clear up front that if you can't fit in the seat provided, that's your problem, not the airline's or your seat-neighbor's, and you'll have to either pay for the extra seat, upgrade to business/first class, wait for a later flight with more room, or take the bus.

 

[SkyHog]

My issue too, is that a lot of planes now have welded down arm rests. If I was super duper fat (and I am, but not as fat as the new rules would address), I'd demand 2 seats that I could fill, not one seat with my gut spilling into the second.

And I think that would be a successful lawsuit too...

 

[steingar]

I've had this discussion with some folks. I was in school back in the 50's and 60's and I cannot remember too many, if any, kids in school the size of of some of the kids I see around today. It makes me sad to see what parents are doing to their children. I watched my own son who is 6'4" get to 390 lbs after he got married and it hurt deeply. I myself hit 261 lbs at my peek. Things hurt that shouldn't have and I was very out of shape. I took it upon myself to lose weight and get back to something that made more sense. From that my son also worked on his weight and has been down in the 270's and is doing triathalons now. My wife got very heavy and she has severe back problems, not due to her weight. Even she has been able to lose weight even though she can't go walking or exercise much. I can't understand why people don't take more interest in their health.

I truly applaud your fitness regimen, and do much myself. But not everyone is like us, and I deeply feel that to simply say "loose some weight why don't you?" is at best simplistic and at worst counterproductive. I do not like the other extreme of utterly pandering to the condition, if I may call it that without being insulting to anyone. I far prefer a middle course, which is often the best way with many things.

 

[Henning]

How about if we let the market decide?

Independence Air was constantly late, had fast Food level employees, and had tiny (cramped) airplanes.

They failed.

Where does the market have any option here? You either fly cattle car or pay at least 3 times as much for the next bigger seat.

 

[Henning]

What happens if there aren't enough people to buy those seats at the higher price? Airlines aren't going to waste space that they don't have reasonable assurance they can sell.

They'll fill them, the problem is they won't have enough. I guess you haven't been in the waiting area of you typical airline terminal lately. There are always plenty of people who won't fit through the seat gauge for normal seats, and they won't have the choice to buy the bigger seat, they will be required to.

 

[bbchien]

Twenty four years ago I was travelling from Bangor Me, to Seattle WA for a professional Certification exam. I got on the 737-200 in Boston. 26F. The flight was full, but the middle seat in my row was not yet occupied.

The boarding door is closed; and an ENORMOUS woman comes all the way down the ailsle to ...26E. The aisle pax stands up. Both armests are down. She positions to get into the middle seat, and in a FLASH both armrests are UP. I spend the next five hours with a right scoliosis in my spine matching the outside skin of the aircraft.

I bought a GA aircraft shortly after that and never looked back.

 

[poadeleted20]

Folks, please don't do this again -- with copyrighted material, just post a link, don't paste the item.