O&P Study

gcd89

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Greg D.
My O&P's for Powerplant (General too) are on the 20th and I'm having trouble with what books to study. I have AC 65- but it doesn't give info on say, "How to inspect condition of CHT probes" or "how to clean an alternator", or "how to test an armature for shorts on a growler"

Will these things be in the AC 43.13?
 
My O&P's for Powerplant (General too) are on the 20th and I'm having trouble with what books to study. I have AC 65- but it doesn't give info on say, "How to inspect condition of CHT probes" or "how to clean an alternator", or "how to test an armature for shorts on a growler"

Will these things be in the AC 43.13?

That is why the FAA places this requirement in the FARs

65.81
(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.

And

43.13 Performance rules (general).
top

(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

You must have the pubs or you can't comply.
 
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That is why the FAA places this requirement in the FARs

65.81
(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.

And

43.13 Performance rules (general).
top

(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

You must have the pubs or you can't comply.

Ah. Gotcha.

I just wish there was a general thing I could see for at least a general description of procedures. But yeah, I knew that on the actual test I'd need the pubs for the specific task, but I'd like a general overview of it.
 
Not trying to bust your chops here - truly I am not...
I am not a licensed mechanic and I know how to do those type of things... If you do not, why would you believe you should pass the exam?
And more to the point, if you do pass, how can you hold yourself out as a licensed mechanic not having actually performed those tasks under supervision?

cordially,
denny-o
 
Not trying to bust your chops here - truly I am not...
I am not a licensed mechanic and I know how to do those type of things... If you do not, why would you believe you should pass the exam?
And more to the point, if you do pass, how can you hold yourself out as a licensed mechanic not having actually performed those tasks under supervision?

cordially,
denny-o

Graduating from an accredited school. I didn't learn the stuff from practical experience. I've only been into aviation for a year or so. So I enrolled in flight school and A&P school at the same time.
 
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Not trying to bust your chops here - truly I am not...
I am not a licensed mechanic and I know how to do those type of things... If you do not, why would you believe you should pass the exam?

Because during the exam he'll be provided the tools and publications needed to pass the test.


And more to the point, if you do pass, how can you hold yourself out as a licensed mechanic not having actually performed those tasks under supervision?

cordially,
denny-o

Very easy, he will get the OJT required
 
Very easy, he will get the OJT required

That's what I'm hoping for :)

I just hope I can pass the tests so I can get the jobs for the OJT.
 
That's what I'm hoping for :)

I just hope I can pass the tests so I can get the jobs for the OJT.

If school wasn't a major struggle you likely won't find the o&p to be too bad.

Study hard but when the day comes relax and have fun showing off how much you've learned and you will do fine.
 
My O&P's for Powerplant (General too) are on the 20th and I'm having trouble with what books to study. I have AC 65- but it doesn't give info on say, "How to inspect condition of CHT probes" or "how to clean an alternator", or "how to test an armature for shorts on a growler"

Will these things be in the AC 43.13?

[rant mode on]
Wait a minute....you've completed 2/3 of the A&P program, about to take the exams, and have no idea how to perform those 3 tasks? You don't know what manuals are needed? You don't know what other resources are available?
[rant mode off]

Example from the JPI FAQ regarding a problem with the CHT probe:
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most likely damaged the probe during plug replacements. Examine the probe to see change if junction is separated from the copper ring. Annealing should not be necessary, but can be done by heating to about 1100°F. and checking output temp at probe. "

Cleaning an alternator - sometime during Powerplant you went thru the section on engine electrical systems, right? What did you do in that unit? Did you remove/replace the alternator? Check that it worked properly, and if not, repaired it? Did you have the appropriate documentation for the alternator? Are you even allowed to clean the alternator?

[/FONT]
 
[rant mode on]
Wait a minute....you've completed 2/3 of the A&P program, about to take the exams, and have no idea how to perform those 3 tasks? You don't know what manuals are needed? You don't know what other resources are available?
[rant mode off]

Example from the JPI FAQ regarding a problem with the CHT probe:
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most likely damaged the probe during plug replacements. Examine the probe to see change if junction is separated from the copper ring. Annealing should not be necessary, but can be done by heating to about 1100°F. and checking output temp at probe. "

Cleaning an alternator - sometime during Powerplant you went thru the section on engine electrical systems, right? What did you do in that unit? Did you remove/replace the alternator? Check that it worked properly, and if not, repaired it? Did you have the appropriate documentation for the alternator? Are you even allowed to clean the alternator?

[/FONT]

He is in pre-exam doubt mode, he probably knows all the stuff already.
 
He is in pre-exam doubt mode, he probably knows all the stuff already.

I don't. I seriously don't. I didn't realize how bad of a school it was until I was already (contractually) locked in.

TRUTH:

In my school, while we learned about CHT probes, the planes we worked on in school (Piper Cherokees) didn't have CHT probes.

Also, we did NOT learn how to clean an alternator. We were explained their operation, theory and construction and even took one apart, but we NEVER cleaned one.

Also, the training on most things consisted of one day training with little practical lesson involved. In the Powerplant electrical section of school we were lectured on the operation, construction and theory of generators, magnetos, alternators, etc. and even had some practical experience, but we only focused on one subject for a very brief time, and then we'd move on to the next subject. Spend a week on mags, dissassemble one, etc. then move on. This was months ago. I have no memory on how to do those kind of things. I forgotten it. Since powerplant electrical for example, I was in airframe classes, and turbine classes, airframe hydraulic systems, airframe electrical and so much more. I forgot most of the stuff I've learned and I'm worried about it.
 
I don't. I seriously don't. I didn't realize how bad of a school it was until I was already (contractually) locked in.

TRUTH:

In my school, while we learned about CHT probes, the planes we worked on in school (Piper Cherokees) didn't have CHT probes.

And you don't clean them , you only inspect or test, it is in the ICAs for the STC to install them.Also, we did NOT learn how to clean an alternator. We were explained their operation, theory and construction and even took one apart, but we NEVER cleaned one.

No one repairs alternators in the field, they replace with a known good item.

Also, the training on most things consisted of one day training with little practical lesson involved. In the Powerplant electrical section of school we were lectured on the operation, construction and theory of generators, magnetos, alternators, etc. and even had some practical experience, but we only focused on one subject for a very brief time, and then we'd move on to the next subject. Spend a week on mags, dissassemble one, etc. then move on. This was months ago. I have no memory on how to do those kind of things. I forgotten it. Since powerplant electrical for example, I was in airframe classes, and turbine classes, airframe hydraulic systems, airframe electrical and so much more. I forgot most of the stuff I've learned and I'm worried about it.

Poor school? maybe, did you take notes?
 
Poor school? maybe, did you take notes?

I did take notes yes? And while I know 90% of being an A&P is replacing things, but they still ask you on the test...
 
I did take notes yes? And while I know 90% of being an A&P is replacing things, but they still ask you on the test...

I'd be studing my notes
 
Well, test is tomorrow. I don't know how I feel. On one hand I feel unprepared, on the other hand, I feel like it'll be a cakewalk....

Hopefully next time I post here I'll be an FAA certified Powerplant technician.
 
Cool, relax for the rest of the night.

By now you know it or you don't so don't doubt yourself, just go in there and do it!!
 
Cool, relax for the rest of the night.

By now you know it or you don't so don't doubt yourself, just go in there and do it!!

My biggest thing is, I know basic stuff, and I know my way through a manual (kind of), but I have no idea what the guy is gonna ask. I'm just nervous about him throwing me something from left field.

I just get nervous before test. I was nervous as hell on my writtens, and a wreck on my first solo (which was today :)), and every other big test I've ever taken. And I end up doing just fine. I'm just nervous I guess.
 
Oh, you'll get something you weren't expecting, so just look it up and answer it.

I stressed and stressed over my O&P (and my Knowledge and Skills, took both as I straddled the change over) but really it was no big deal at all. That said without bragging I hold my schools highest grade, but honestly only the idiots of the class failed.

Just look forward to the IA exam, that one is FUN!
 
Well, test is tomorrow. I don't know how I feel. On one hand I feel unprepared, on the other hand, I feel like it'll be a cakewalk....

Hopefully next time I post here I'll be an FAA certified Powerplant technician.

I'm surprised your instructors didn't provide some sample test questions and info about the examiner. In the back of each of the topic books are excellent examples of both questions and projects you might expect on the exam.

1. don't try to bullsh*t. Admit you are not exactly clear on an answer, explain where you'd find the answer, then look it up. This is not rocket science. At least not yet.
2. let us know the outcome
3. where is your school (no need to libel the school, at least not yet)
 
Well, test is tomorrow. I don't know how I feel. On one hand I feel unprepared, on the other hand, I feel like it'll be a cakewalk....

Hopefully next time I post here I'll be an FAA certified Powerplant technician.

They always ask, why does a radial engine always have an odd number of cylinders per row?
 
Oh, you'll get something you weren't expecting, so just look it up and answer it.

I stressed and stressed over my O&P (and my Knowledge and Skills, took both as I straddled the change over) but really it was no big deal at all. That said without bragging I hold my schools highest grade, but honestly only the idiots of the class failed.

Just look forward to the IA exam, that one is FUN!

I graduated Cum Laude from my school (only one GPA pointaway from the next highest).

Can you use books on the Oral section. The practical part will be fine because I have books/manuals etc. but can you use manuals and pubs on the oral?
 
I'm surprised your instructors didn't provide some sample test questions and info about the examiner. In the back of each of the topic books are excellent examples of both questions and projects you might expect on the exam.

1. don't try to bullsh*t. Admit you are not exactly clear on an answer, explain where you'd find the answer, then look it up. This is not rocket science. At least not yet.
2. let us know the outcome
3. where is your school (no need to libel the school, at least not yet)

1. Yeah I know. We were taught to not over sell what you're trying to say. Keep it short, if he wants more info he'll ask.

2. Will do

3. National Aviation Academy, Clearwater, FL. It was terrible. My last 2 months of school we had THREE different teachers...needless to say it's hard to learn hydraulic systems and stuff when you have 3 guys telling you 3 different things. Assignments were a pain because each guy wanted them completed differently. Also, one of them was damn near senile.
 
Well, test is tomorrow. I don't know how I feel. On one hand I feel unprepared, on the other hand, I feel like it'll be a cakewalk....

Hopefully next time I post here I'll be an FAA certified Powerplant technician.

WELL?!
 
Failed 3 practical sections. Aced everything else.

Fluid Lines and Fittings. Could not get the damn nipple fitting to screw into the hose any further.

Materials and Processes. Safety wiring got me. Honestly, I tihnk we did that about THREE times in school. I've never been able to nail it down, I suppose because we didn't do it enough in school

Propellers. The assignment was "can this Sensenich prop go on this plane?" Well, looking in the TCDS I saw Sensenich but it wasn't the model they asked about. So I said no. But the Sensenich model was in there several pages later. I figured all of the Sensenich props would be listed together.

So now I need to pay $150 to retake those things.
 
So now I need to pay $150 to retake those things.

Safety wire is a skill that requires practice practice and more practice.

I never have made a hose in the field.

Type certificates are a Bitc-, any day. the stupid PA 28, has about 100 pages.and done by serial as to what fits what.

Oh well now ya know what to expect next time.
 
We did lots of safety-wiring practice at the community college A&P program I went to. All through the program we disassembled stuff and reassembled stuff requiring safety-wire. Hard to believe you only did it three times.
 
We did lots of safety-wiring practice at the community college A&P program I went to. All through the program we disassembled stuff and reassembled stuff requiring safety-wire. Hard to believe you only did it three times.

It wasn't practiced nearly enough how much it's done in the field.

The first time was on the day where we learned about it, where we had pictures and watch someone do it. The second was when we removed/replaced a prop. Those were the only times I ever recall doing it.

As for taking things apart, that rarely happened as well. We took apart an engine, mags, and carburetors. We never got to really disassemble anything else.

The crappy thing is, how do I practice safety wring and building a line. It's not like I have bolts and some safety wire lying around my house, or flexible hose and AN fittings in my garage, so how am I supposed to practice/learn it? Reading avout it can only help so much...

Thinking of asking someone at my school to teach me one on one or even talking to an A&P at my flight school about it.
 
Just look forward to the IA exam, that one is FUN!

Oh, yeah, if you get your jollies trying to remember what the Canadian equivalent of a repair facility or DER is. I swear half the exam was on identifying what is and is not a foreign equivalent of a USA FAA rating.
.
.
 
Failed 3 practical sections. Aced everything else.

Fluid Lines and Fittings. Could not get the damn nipple fitting to screw into the hose any further.

Materials and Processes. Safety wiring got me.

Propellers. The assignment was "can this Sensenich prop go on this plane?"

So now I need to pay $150 to retake those things.

1. Then would have been the time to say something like "you were never shown how to do it right and would you, Mr. Examiner, show me how to do it so that I can go practice."

2. Forget the fancy twisty pliers. Go buy one of the long rod tools with two holes at the far end. Learn how to do it by hand FIRST before you use the fancy pliers.

3. At this point you pull out your ipad with all the TCDS loaded up and do a document search for "Sensenich ABC-1234" (or even better, just "ABC-1234" so it doesn't take so long) and find the answer in milliseconds.

Bummer about the $150, but if you bust it again, have the examiner show you exactly what (s)he wanted. Cheap lesson.

Jim
 
It wasn't practiced nearly enough how much it's done in the field.

I use about a roll per year, as the A&P-IA, but when I worked the power plant shop at NAS Whidbey, I used a roll per week. Yes I can safety wire.


The first time was on the day where we learned about it, where we had pictures and watch someone do it. The second was when we removed/replaced a prop. Those were the only times I ever recall doing it.

get a roll of wire from AS&S and set of pliers and practice, you can get the bolts too, drill two holes in a piece of iron strap, place the bolts in the holes and tighten, then practice, If you can't do this simple task, you'll be handicapped as a A&P


As for taking things apart, that rarely happened as well. We took apart an engine, mags, and carburetors. We never got to really disassemble anything else.

The crappy thing is, how do I practice safety wring and building a line.

You are required to have the tools and pubs to do the job, so buy them. you are going to be require to have your own tools to get a job, so buy them.


It's not like I have bolts and some safety wire lying around my house, or flexible hose and AN fittings in my garage, so how am I supposed to practice/learn it? Reading about it can only help so much...

http://www.aircraft-tool.com/

Thinking of asking someone at my school to teach me one on one or even talking to an A&P at my flight school about it.

that's a great idea. don't be surprised if the lesson ain't free.
 
1. Then would have been the time to say something like "you were never shown how to do it right and would you, Mr. Examiner, show me how to do it so that I can go practice."

2. Forget the fancy twisty pliers. Go buy one of the long rod tools with two holes at the far end. Learn how to do it by hand FIRST before you use the fancy pliers.
I spent 2.5 hours on one safety wire project before the instructor approved it. I counted 29 attempts before he was happy (number of twists per inch, etc) That was about the only useful thing I learned in General.
3. At this point you pull out your iPad with all the TCDS loaded up and do a document search for "Sensenich ABC-1234" (or even better, just "ABC-1234" so it doesn't take so long) and find the answer in milliseconds.
I took general in 2004 and carried my laptop with me, already loaded with the all TCDS for the aircraft in the shop, along with AC-43xxx, the FARs, anything else I could find. I already had the Parts & Service manual for the cherokee, this was the next step. Many of the students hated my guts (they would have anyway, no matter what) and the instructor wasn't fond of it either. His plan was to have us waste lots of time looking stuff up so he didn't have to do anything for a while.

No, he's not there anymore.

I've been working as an unpaid consultant with the A&P school. It's not a for-profit school (public votech program) which means they don't have the kind of money Redstone has (of course Redstone charges $45K and this school charges $22K and it doesn't have to be upfront.) putting together a list of resources for budget consideration. Like getting the district to get a 2-3 laptops on rolling stands that can move around the shop so the kids don't have to go into the library, print what they need, then go back to the shop.

Back to the OP - yes, hands-on practice is incredibly useful. Is there a shop around that you can ask to be an intern/apprentice/whatever? You'll probably spend most of your time doing oil changes and washing airplanes, but you'll also get to assist.

You're taking flying lessons - that means the aircraft are on a 100 hour inspection. Talk to the shop doing the inspections and ask to help - oil changes and removing the inspection panels, etc.

Join the local EAA chapter and offer to help. More practical REAL experience! I have no intentions of being an A&P but being the 4th set of hands when the Glastar owner had to change out all the cylinders was invaluable. I got to ask all the stupid questions and no one minded. Not only that, the two A&Ps helping the owner kept up a running dialog as if they were teaching an OJT class.
 
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I spent 2.5 hours on one safety wire project before the instructor approved it. I counted 29 attempts before he was happy (number of twists per inch, etc)
No, he's not there anymore.

You had multiple tries? I just got one try.

I did it to the best of my abilities, and go get the DME to look at it
HIM: "Is this an airworthy job"
ME: "No, I did the best I could"
HIM: "Well, Im gonna have to put you down for a retake then"

I wish I would've gotten multiple attempts...
 
You had multiple tries? I just got one try.

I did it to the best of my abilities, and go get the DME to look at it
HIM: "Is this an airworthy job"
ME: "No, I did the best I could"
HIM: "Well, Im gonna have to put you down for a retake then"

I wish I would've gotten multiple attempts...

If you knew it wasn't good enough, why didn't you cut it off and redo it before you called the DME to inspect.?
 
If you knew it wasn't good enough, why didn't you cut it off and redo it before you called the DME to inspect.?

Didn't think I could do it any better.
 
You had multiple tries? I just got one try.
Not the DME, the instructor in the course. I've only taken General - no interest in either A or P, altho I'll take a couple of the individual units when I have time.
 
The more I read about your efforts at the school the more I blame the school & instructors for not preparing you for either the material or the exams. Safety wiring is in General and should be mastered there and not in A or P.

I realize this doesn't help, but you have my sympathy how you've been treated by the school. It's been a very expensive learning experience, and shouldn't have been.
 
The more I read about your efforts at the school the more I blame the school & instructors for not preparing you for either the material or the exams. Safety wiring is in General and should be mastered there and not in A or P.

I realize this doesn't help, but you have my sympathy how you've been treated by the school. It's been a very expensive learning experience, and shouldn't have been.

Well the thing is, the instructors at this school presented info as if it was already known. The guys were former industry guys (former army guys, former Delta DOM's, etc). They weren't teachers by any means. I learned more during my O&P than I did in school! The school was seriously terrible. The book we used for book work in school weren't even FAA publications. There were 50 people in my class. Our practical training on any given subject was "Here's what it looks like...let's move on."

Check this out, the school pays for the test but, instead of paying the DME directly, they right a check made out to ME, I cash it myself, and pay the DME in cash...the reason for this...the school's checks would bounce when they paid the DME's directly.

Bad school. It was mostly busy book work. We had days at the hangar where we literally did N-O-T-H-I-N-G. Our practical experiences were not good learning experiences. We were turned loose on an assignment, with no guidance on how to actually do it. "Okay, you guys are gonna work on landing gear. Here's the pubs, go for it." I realize publications are important but I also think I should be instructed and thoughly shown how to do it.
 
Anyway, to practice the safety wiring I was going to buy some bolts and some wire and just practice at home....went down to Home Depot and they didn't have the bolts with the hole through the head, or safety wire, and so I'm gonna have to buy it online.
 
Anyway, to practice the safety wiring I was going to buy some bolts and some wire and just practice at home....went down to Home Depot and they didn't have the bolts with the hole through the head, or safety wire, and so I'm gonna have to buy it online.

Go join local EAA chapter - members have all this stuff hanging around. Offer to help. You'll learn to safety wire.
 
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