NYC visit and flight

Flyingfanatic

Flyingfanatic

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Flying Fanatic
My wife and I are thinking about a trip to New York in July and probably going to stay in Manhattan.

Any recommendations for a flight school that we could do an aerial tour of the area? I don't want just a ride, I'd like to fly it with an instructor.

Any recommendations on where to stay and where not to stay would also be appreciated.
 
What aircraft are you looking for?

Will you have a car? If so, how far will you be willing to drive?



A buddy of mine teaches on an SR20 out of KBDR. I'm sure he'll be happy to give you a lesson if you want. He also mounts a GoPro on the tail, so you will have a high quality video of the whole flight along with recorded intercom and radio communications.
There is a train that goes from Manhattan to KBDR, so transportation shouldn't be an issue.

Here is a recording of a similar flight he did with someone else: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jxsrof1y5Lk
 
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Take the LIRR to Farmingdale and go to Global Aviation in Republic Airport. They do NYC tours and I believe they let you fly. They usually have deals/packages going on so you might be able to get a discount. They are a really good group of people and they are cheaper than most flight schools in the airport
 
jordane93 said:
Take the LIRR to Farmingdale and go to Global Aviation in Republic Airport. They do NYC tours and I believe they let you fly. They usually have deals/packages going on so you might be able to get a discount. They are a really good group of people and they are cheaper than most flight schools in the airport
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The problem with those "schools" that do "tours" is that they are mainly tours. The OP sounds like he is a pilot, which means he will want to do most (if not all) of the flying himself.
I think it's best to call a flight school and specifically ask for a flight lesson rather than a tour.
 
We won't have a car. I figured a 172 would be fine. That or a warrior, cirrus, etc. It will just be me and maybe my wife if I can convince her. She doesn't fly with me. Ugh.
 
I'm envious. I meant to set something up like this last time I was in NYC but I didn't have my PPL yet. Next time I'm going to for shizzle!
 
Flyingfanatic said:
We won't have a car. I figured a 172 would be fine. That or a warrior, cirrus, etc. It will just be me and maybe my wife if I can convince her. She doesn't fly with me. Ugh.
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I know there is a train going to KHPN, KBDR, KFRG, and KMMU. I can't tell you anything more specific than that because I just don't know the details.
 
I'm a part time CFI. I am just looking to have another CFI with me to do a dual flight down the Hudson. I'd prefer a 172, but I'm not set on that.
 
MachFly said:
What aircraft are you looking for?

Will you have a car? If so, how far will you be willing to drive?



A buddy of mine teaches on an SR20 out of KBDR. I'm sure he'll be happy to give you a lesson if you want. He also mounts a GoPro on the tail, so you will have a high quality video of the whole flight along with recorded intercom and radio communications.
There is a train that goes from Manhattan to KBDR, so transportation shouldn't be an issue.

Here is a recording of a similar flight he did with someone else: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jxsrof1y5Lk
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How long does it take to go from Manhattan to BDR via train?

Also, how long of a flight would it be from BDR down the Hudson and back?
 
Flyingfanatic said:
How long does it take to go from Manhattan to BDR via train?

Also, how long of a flight would it be from BDR down the Hudson and back?
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I don't really know many details about the train. All I know is that people do use it, so it must be practical. I personally never even seen it.

The flight should take around 1.0 of air time, plus another 0.2 of ground. BDR isn't too busy.
You'll probably go direct alpine tower, join the hudson, fly south, turn around south of the corridor and fly back.
http://skyvector.com/?ll=40.88990063401061,-73.85230388022443&chart=119&zoom=5&plan=A.K6.KBDR:G.40.951525753039654,-73.90074597344743:G.40.75566322192244,-74.01993030736443:G.40.606313324158855,-74.05578636736146
 
I'd recommend the LIRR (train from Penn) to FRG, where there are lots of operators (Long Island Aviators, Academy of Aviation, Nassau Flyers, etc). Many of them will pick you up from the LIRR station 10 mins away and take you to FRG. It should be simple to find an operator that will set you up with a CFI and a 172 to do a dual flight. Additionally, it's a pretty neat flight into the city at 400' off of the south shore of Long Island, under the approaches to JFK.
 
Mike I said:
Additionally, it's a pretty neat flight into the city at 400' off of the south shore of Long Island, under the approaches to JFK.
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Oh yeah! :thumbsup:

Also, while you're at it, see if you can get an East River clearance(the local CFI will be familiar with the airspace and landmarks). Nothing like the view of Manhattan while crossing Central Park!!!
 
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Mike I said:
I'd recommend the LIRR (train from Penn) to FRG, where there are lots of operators (Long Island Aviators, Academy of Aviation, Nassau Flyers, etc). Many of them will pick you up from the LIRR station 10 mins away and take you to FRG. It should be simple to find an operator that will set you up with a CFI and a 172 to do a dual flight. Additionally, it's a pretty neat flight into the city at 400' off of the south shore of Long Island, under the approaches to JFK.
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That 400ft flight is indeed great. Just one thing though, would you really get into an airplane with a guy who you just met and fly at 400ft? If the instructor gives you the PIC then yeah, but somehow I don't think that's going to happen.
 
MachFly said:
Just one thing though, would you really get into an airplane with a guy who you just met and fly at 400ft? If the instructor gives you the PIC then yeah, but somehow I don't think that's going to happen.
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Umm...I'm pretty sure that you fly at 400' every time you take off and land. What's you point? Besides, the 500 class bravo floor is along a beach...a continuous emergency (or not emergency, eh hmm) strip if you needed to put it down.
 
So I take it you'd fly down the east side of LI, around the south end and then up the Hudson?

That does sound like a cool flight.
 
Brad Z said:
Umm...I'm pretty sure that you fly at 400' every time you take off and land. What's you point? Besides, the 500 class bravo floor is along a beach...a continuous emergency (or not emergency, eh hmm) strip if you needed to put it down.
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During a take off or landing your at that altitude for a short period of time and your either climbing or descending, your speed is also much lower. Your not going to tell me that it's safe for an untrained person to fly a x-country at 5ft AGL, yet you end up being at 5ft AGL on every take off and landing. Same thing here, just less extreme.

Engine failure is not really a problem, chances are you'll survive, and there will be a million 911 calls if you go down. The problem is that at 400ft you have much less room for error. The sight picture is significantly different, everything moves by much faster than your used to, you can't afford to look inside to check your chart or your engine gauges for very long, higher possibility of a bird strike and maneuvering away from a bird can easily prove fatal if not done properly, and probably a few other reasons that I can't think of right now.

There is nothing wrong with low level flying, I'm a big fan of it actually. But I would not fly low level with someone I just met, especially if that person is the PIC and has not had any specific/quality low level training.
 
Flyingfanatic said:
So I take it you'd fly down the east side of LI, around the south end and then up the Hudson?

That does sound like a cool flight.
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In the video that I posted in my first reply you can see that fly-by at 33:37.
 
MachFly said:
During a take off or landing your at that altitude for a short period of time and your either climbing or descending, your speed is also much lower. Your not going to tell me that it's safe for an untrained person to fly a x-country at 5ft AGL, yet you end up being at 5ft AGL on every take off and landing. Same thing here, just less extreme.

Engine failure is not really a problem, chances are you'll survive, and there will be a million 911 calls if you go down. The problem is that at 400ft you have much less room for error. The sight picture is significantly different, everything moves by much faster than your used to, you can't afford to look inside to check your chart or your engine gauges for very long, higher possibility of a bird strike and maneuvering away from a bird can easily prove fatal if not done properly, and probably a few other reasons that I can't think of right now.

There is nothing wrong with low level flying, I'm a big fan of it actually. But I would not fly low level with someone I just met, especially if that person is the PIC and has not had any specific/quality low level training.
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Jeez, I thought we were talking about a CFI flying with another CFI. But if he's that much concerned, why not let the local CFI handle the low level South Shore route and then give it to the other guy once they're at the Hudson?

By the way, my first and only "low level training" was solo along this route and I've flown it several times since, without incident.

Altimeter set to current Baro
Eyes outside
Trim
Occasional altimeter check to make sure you're not balloning into Bravo
Repeat
Enjoy:wink2:
 
redtail said:
Jeez, I thought we were talking about a CFI flying with another CFI. But if he's that much concerned, why not let the local CFI handle the low level South Shore route and then give it to the other guy once they're at the Hudson?
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I think you misunderstood what I said. I mean I wouldn't fly with a local CFI for the first time at 400ft. If you just met the guy you don't know what to expect from him, and at 400ft there isn't much room for error.

By the way, my first and only "low level training" was solo along this route and I've flown it several times since, without incident.
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Well...a lot of people do aerobatics without training either, and some people even do low level aerobatics without training. Doesn't mean it's safe.

Now I'm not saying anything about you, you might be the next Red Baron, but generally doing something like that without training is not a good idea.
 
But wouldn't you assume a local CFI has experience in the area, and doing that flight?
I would, specially since I'm sure that route to the Hudson is pretty much standard for them.
You can always ask how many times he flew it if you don't want to assume.
 
MachFly said:
I think you misunderstood what I said. I mean I wouldn't fly with a local CFI for the first time at 400ft. If you just met the guy you don't know what to expect from him, and at 400ft there isn't much room for error.
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What about your first flight lesson? I don't know about you but mine was with a 23yr old CFI that I'd just met and had no idea of what to expect from him. Tell you one thing, he sure saved my ass during a botched stall recovery when we were pointed 90 degrees nose down:hairraise::rofl:



MachFly said:
Well...a lot of people do aerobatics without training either, and some people even do low level aerobatics without training. Doesn't mean it's safe.

Now I'm not saying anything about you, you might be the next Red Baron, but generally doing something like that without training is not a good idea.
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Sorry but I don't equate aerobatics (which I have very little of...with an aero CFI) with low level flying along a sparsely populated area like an empty beach, during winter.:confused:

I'm flying straight & level with minimum maneuvering. I'm flying at cruise speed or slightly lower. I have a nice beach to put it down on (if needed). I'm wearing my PFD just in case the beach is crowded and I have to put it in the water.

Sorry I'm just not seeing your line of thinking.
 
And, after I'm clear of KFRG to the south, I'm talking to JFK tower and radar identified (as required), until I check out over Coney Island. My friends at JFK keep a good eye on me:wink2:
 
redtail said:
What about your first flight lesson? I don't know about you but mine was with a 23yr old CFI that I'd just met and had no idea of what to expect from him. Tell you one thing, he sure saved my ass during a botched stall recovery when we were pointed 90 degrees nose down:hairraise::rofl:
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On my first lesson I did have to trust the instructor, but I still went pretty far out of my way to make it safer. I went to the highest recommended school in the area (2hr drive), flew with their chief flight instructor, and on their best aircraft (SR20, chute and modern airframe mean a lot when you can't really fly on your own).

For my first low lever flight lesson I flew with a USAF T-38 instructor.


Sorry but I don't equate aerobatics (which I have very little of...with an aero CFI) with low level flying along a sparsely populated area like an empty beach, during winter.:confused:

I'm flying straight & level with minimum maneuvering. I'm flying at cruise speed or slightly lower. I have a nice beach to put it down on (if needed). I'm wearing my PFD just in case the beach is crowded and I have to put it in the water.

Sorry I'm just not seeing your line of thinking.
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Yes aerobatics is more dangerous than straight and level flight along the beach at 400ft. Was just using it as an example.

400ft isn't too bad, but haven't you at least once thought "lets see how much more fun it is at 100ft....or 50ft" or "I can fly low level along the beach just fine, lets do the same down a river!"

Maybe you do have a set of rules, only 400ft, only along that beach, and only straight and level (or something like that). Here's the thing though, you can't always do straight and level down that beach. During the winter it's fine, but during the summer you always have a whole bunch of traffic to deal with, everyone (especially helicopters) flies down the beach at that same altitude. So in addition list of things you mentioned in post #20, you still have to look our for traffic (yes ATC does help, but they are not perfect) and occasionally maneuver around it.

I'm going to contradict myself a bit, that specific route is not super dangerous, it's the idea of low level being safe and simple that I'm against.
 
We are slightly getting off topic, which I don't mind, I just want to remind everyone why I originally brought up this idea. I never said anything against the OP flying that 400ft route, what I said was not to fly with with someone he just met. Because if that guy that he flies with for the first time turns out to be a complete idiot and does something incredibly stupid at 400ft, the OP will not have time to correct the error.
 
MachFly said:
We are slightly getting off topic, which I don't mind, I just want to remind everyone why I originally brought up this idea. I never said anything against the OP flying that 400ft route, what I said was not to fly with with someone he just met. Because if that guy that he flies with for the first time turns out to be a complete idiot and does something incredibly stupid at 400ft, the OP will not have time to correct the error.
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OK, If you're talking about any ol' Joe Schmo pilot from the area, I agree.

However, I've flown with several CFI's out of various flight schools on Long Island, and none of them comes even close to being a 'complete idiot':no:.
And although I've never flown this route with any of them, I can't imagine any would do something incredibly stupid at 400ft:yikes:.

My only advice is to wear a PFD, because if you have an engine failure over the Hudson, you're going for a Sully ride!
 
MachFly said:
We are slightly getting off topic, which I don't mind, I just want to remind everyone why I originally brought up this idea. I never said anything against the OP flying that 400ft route, what I said was not to fly with with someone he just met. Because if that guy that he flies with for the first time turns out to be a complete idiot and does something incredibly stupid at 400ft, the OP will not have time to correct the error.
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O.K.

Based on that premise he should never fly with anyone he's ever just met. I hope he doesn't ever go work for an airline.
 
Brad Z said:
O.K.

Based on that premise he should never fly with anyone he's ever just met. I hope he doesn't ever go work for an airline.
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Last I checked airliners cruise a bit higher than 400ft.
 
MachFly said:
Last I checked airliners cruise a bit higher than 400ft.
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Do you even read what you write here?

MachFly said:
We are slightly getting off topic, which I don't mind, I just want to remind everyone why I originally brought up this idea. I never said anything against the OP flying that 400ft route, what I said was not to fly with with someone he just met. Because if that guy that he flies with for the first time turns out to be a complete idiot and does something incredibly stupid at 400ft, the OP will not have time to correct the error.
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Flying with another pilot you've never flown with before is an everyday occurrence in the 121 world. Doing something stupid at 4000 feet (or 40,000 feet) can be just as dangerous as 400 feet, if it's unrecoverable (see AF447). Anyway, this is a stupid argument and in no way related to the OPs question.
 
Brad Z said:
Anyway, this is a stupid argument and in no way related to the OPs question.
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That's POA for ya:D

Bottom line, everyone has their own risk tolerances and comfort levels.
Every CFI I've ever flown with was someone I'd just met, including the aerobatic instructor. Nowhere in my mind did I ever think... 'this guy might be a complete idiot and do something incredibly stupid while showing me loops and rolls'.

OP if you're not comfortable flying at 400 AGL over the beaches of Long Island, there's another option. One which I've flown several times.

Depart KFRG to the Northwest, stay under the bravo shelf and clear of the Westchester Co. (KHPN) Delta. You'll be heading towards the Tappan Zee bridge, to join the Hudson River southbound, before reaching the bridge. From there you can either fly the exclusion or the Skyline Route (Bravo clearance required).

Again, the local CFI will be familiar with the details I'm sure (ask him/her).
Take the SFRA online course to familiarize yourself with the operational procedures.

https://faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=79

This is one of my favorite scenic flights. My first flight in a GA airplane (discovery flight) spring 1998, was from KTEB down the Hudson, circle Coney Island and back up the river Northbound. I'll never forget the amazing view! And I'll always treasure the memory of flying past the Twin Towers a few hundred feet below their tops!

After that flight, I was hooked. Started lessons a few weeks later:yesnod:
 
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Brad Z said:
Do you even read what you write here?



Flying with another pilot you've never flown with before is an everyday occurrence in the 121 world. Doing something stupid at 4000 feet (or 40,000 feet) can be just as dangerous as 400 feet, if it's unrecoverable (see AF447). Anyway, this is a stupid argument and in no way related to the OPs question.
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So are you saying that 400ft is just as dangerous at 40,000ft?
 
MachFly said:
So are you saying that 400ft is just as dangerous at 40,000ft?
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Then maybe he shouldn't be taking the tour at all then. You've got plenty of danger up and down the Hudson corridor at 1100' (or higher in the Bravo) and if your engine dies, you're going for a swim. Unless you're suggesting flying the 'scenic' tour at 40,000ft :nonod:

Must be a great view from that safe altitude :dunno:
 
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Hope we didn't scare the O.P. away from flying in NYC!
 
You almost scared me away from the message boards, but never flying!
 
By you, I meant all of you, or at least those debating low level flying. It was said in jest.
 
Flyingfanatic said:
By you, I meant all of you, or at least those debating low level flying. It was said in jest.
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You asked about taking the tour with a local CFI that knows the area and details, and a few of us local guys (not CFI's) gave you info on how we go about it. Someone mentioned a route behind JFK (under Bravo) that I'm familiar with and I should have left it at that.

Yeah you're right, I shouldn't have been sucked into a debate about the danger of flying at 400' (over water under JFK Bravo) any more than a debate over the inherent danger of flying over the Hudson (at low level) in the first place.:rolleyes2:

If you do decide to take the tour, I hope you enjoy it. It really is a beautiful adventure!

Best
 
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