NYC SFRA in aircraft without electrical system

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Joegoersch

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JoeGoersch
Is it legal to fly up the Hudson River, below the bravo airspace without a transponder ? I don't see anything in 14CFR93 that requires a transponder any more...
 
Aren't you required to make checkpoint callouts along the route? Or do you have a handheld radio for that? Plus ADSB-out is still required within a Mode-C veil.
 
Dana said:
Not if you don't have an engine driven electrical system.
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Ok - didn't realize that was an exception. Thanks.
IMO it's still pretty irresponsible to try flying in that congested a corridor without radios or transponder, regardless of the legalities. But I'm sure many on here would disagree.
 
There is no specific requirement for a transponder above and beyond what is required in § 91.215.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-93/subpart-W

From the Federal Register:
Another commenter stated that the requirement for a transponder will disenfranchise aircraft that are not equipped with an electrical system. This rule did not propose any new transponder requirements. Regulations governing transponder use in the National Airspace System are contained in 14 CFR 91.215. In part, that regulation requires that all aircraft operated within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in Appendix D to part 91 (i.e., those airports where Class B airspace has been designated) must have an operable transponder with altitude reporting capability. The regulation contains specific procedures to accommodate aircraft not equipped with an engine-driven electrical system (see § 91.215(b)(3)).
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Ok - didn't realize that was an exception. Thanks.
IMO it's still pretty irresponsible to try flying in that congested a corridor without radios or transponder, regardless of the legalities. But I'm sure many on here would disagree.
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You would still be required to report your position by radio IAW 14 CFR 93.352(a).
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Aren't you required to make checkpoint callouts along the route? Or do you have a handheld radio for that? Plus ADSB-out is still required within a Mode-C veil.
Click to expand...

I have a handheld...
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Ok - didn't realize that was an exception. Thanks.
IMO it's still pretty irresponsible to try flying in that congested a corridor without radios or transponder, regardless of the legalities. But I'm sure many on here would disagree.
Click to expand...

As I often repeat, what is safe isn't always legal, and what is legal isn't always safe.
 
Brad Z said:
You would still be required to report your position by radio IAW 14 CFR 93.352(a).
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Brad, I think it's irresponsible to fly it without a radio, since a) it's required and b) it's how you can tell other pilots where you are.
But do you think it's irresponsible to fly without a transponder ? Unless the pilots have ADSB traffic, it won't make a difference, and even then they should be looking out, not staring at their ipad...
 
Joegoersch said:
Brad, I think it's irresponsible to fly it without a radio, since a) it's required and b) it's how you can tell other pilots where you are.
But do you think it's irresponsible to fly without a transponder ? Unless the pilots have ADSB traffic, it won't make a difference, and even then they should be looking out, not staring at their ipad...
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I don't have an opinion. I'm just quoting the regulation. Isn't that what you asked for?
 
Brad Z said:
I don't have an opinion. I'm just quoting the regulation. Isn't that what you asked for?
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My bad, I meant to quote alleycat67...

AlleyCat67 said: ↑
Ok - didn't realize that was an exception. Thanks.
IMO it's still pretty irresponsible to try flying in that congested a corridor without radios or transponder, regardless of the legalities. But I'm sure many on here would disagree.
 
Joegoersch said:
My bad, I meant to quote alleycat67...

AlleyCat67 said: ↑
Ok - didn't realize that was an exception. Thanks.
IMO it's still pretty irresponsible to try flying in that congested a corridor without radios or transponder, regardless of the legalities. But I'm sure many on here would disagree.
Click to expand...

You have a handheld, so that's good.

I do think the assertion that "pilots with ADSB spend their time glued to their iPads and not looking out the window" is a strawman. It's possible to glance at the iPad to get situational awareness, and then confirm that visually out the window. That's what any qualified pilot would do. If you use ADSB you know that you miss a big fraction of traffic if you rely only on your eyeballs.

In general, I think it's a miracle that post-9/11 we are still allowed to fly up the Hudson past NYC at all. It's very busy airspace crammed with helicopters & other GA aircraft. I'd like to think GA pilots are using every possible tool to ensure that they transit the area safely so that everyone can continue to enjoy the privilege. End of sermon - enjoy the flight.
 
Groundpounder said:
I would be worried about getting hit from behind. It would be akin to taking a model T out onto a freeway.
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I would guess the OP’s speed would be similar to that of many helicopters, how often do they fly the corridor? The helicopters likely fly lower and have a transponder though, so that is a consideration when trying to compare them.

That said, I know people who have flown the corridor in Taylorcrafts with no electrical. They didn’t indicate that there was a problem doing it, but they did it about 12 years ago now. I’d consider doing it but I’m not sure it would be the most enjoyable experience.
 
I used to fly my T-Craft up and down the "slot" years ago (NORDO of course), before it was a SFRA. Got passed by a Huey once going north. When I landed at MGJ it was already on the ground there, and the pilot said to me, "I don't believe it, you're the first plane we've ever passed!"
 
mondtster said:
I would guess the OP’s speed would be similar to that of many helicopters, how often do they fly the corridor? The helicopters likely fly lower and have a transponder though, so that is a consideration when trying to compare them.

That said, I know people who have flown the corridor in Taylorcrafts with no electrical. They didn’t indicate that there was a problem doing it, but they did it about 12 years ago now. I’d consider doing it but I’m not sure it would be the most enjoyable experience.
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From what I have seen, the tour helo's do about 100-110 knots.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Ok - didn't realize that was an exception. Thanks.
IMO it's still pretty irresponsible to try flying in that congested a corridor without radios or transponder, regardless of the legalities. But I'm sure many on here would disagree.
Click to expand...

In a J3, the biggest danger is running out of fuel. Other than Sully International Airport, not a lot of options when the engine quits.
At 900 ft, the altitude I fly the corridor, there is no "congestion" other than the occasional tourist helicopters. I've done multiple trips and I've been the ONLY aircraft all the way down and all the way back.
As long as you have a working radio, even if its a handheld, and you do the required checkpoint call outs, and pay attention to anyone else on the frequency, it's perfectly safe. We've been flying the route, down and back for decades without incident.
The best time to do the trip is during the work week, and off season. I usually do it around 9:00 AM ish. The only helicopters you will see are News traffic helos.
You also get the added bonus of laughing out loud at the traffic backed up on all the roads going into NYC.
If the weather is good tomorrow, I was going to fly the corridor tomorrow in the PA-17.
A past trip. Don't remember when.


IMG_2416.JPG
 
I flown it a bunch of times. Never seen it "busy". Sure, there's been other plans in the corridor, but fly the correct side/altitude and report positions. Not a big deal. Enjoy the flight.
 
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