Now AEROBAT

etemplet

etemplet

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etemplet
After research, soul search, practicality, and multi-role capability... I have decided to get really serious in seeking out an IFR Cessna Aerobat. I believe this plane will do everything I want and do it cheaply. :yes:

200 mile radius of my home.
Evening flights, morning flights to nowhere
A little attitude with some very light acrobatics, honing my skills.
Touch and go's
IFR approaches, holding patterns,
Less expensive annuals, insurance, and extra money for upgrades.
I will be flying alone most of the time.
My son can use this plane to get his private license.

The other plane I am looking at is a Bonanza and it is overkill for my everyday needs. I flew over to look at it on Monday. I still like it very much but.... it could cost twice + as much to operate and diligence to fly.

Any thoughts on the Aerobat ? I don't want a 172ish type plane. I don't need the seats and I can rent those easily. Am I missing anything ?

I appreciate the input on the Decathlon... all great stuff. I promise this is my last stop.

Thanks for any input.
 
Nice ones seem a bit pricey. If it ticks all the right boxes go for it. Better to have something fun for you, then what your internet friends think you should fly.
 
The airplanes discussed are very different. Ie: the bonanza has little or nothing to do with a Citabria 150 or a decathlon, or an aerobat. The aerobat was never produced in great numbers compared to the other three. To me, the aerobat would be a real Ho hummer, but for an inexpensive plane to go get a burger in......why not? Your interest in the bonanza must indicate that aerobatics is not really on your agenda as it would be a poor choice. The aerobat also has a nose wheel which makes it easier to control and easier to learn in. You might just consider a 150 or 152 and be done with it.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Nice ones seem a bit pricey. If it ticks all the right boxes go for it. Better to have something fun for you, then what your internet friends think you should fly.
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Yes they are pricey. With the Aerobat, I am more interested in the Journey than the destination. I want a cool versatile little plane I can hang around with and it can be my BUD. A lil "Roll my own" is what I consider cool about the aerobat.

Has anyone flown or owned one ?
 
Ectually - what you need is the aerobatic Bonanza. Yeah babeeeeeeeeeee!

That'll hit all your buttons. But - at a price.
 
Having done aerobatics in both Aerobats and Citabrias...

...I personally FAR favor a stick over a yoke for aerobatics.

It just seems more natural.

With a stick in a snap roll to the right, the stick moves pretty much in a straight line to the right rear, to get full up elevator and full right aileron in one motion.

In the Aerobat, it's a weirder "rotate and pull" maneuver. Given the large motion of the yoke to effect both full aileron and full elevator, the term "monkey motion" comes to mind.

Plus, I'd give points to tandem seating for aerobatics, putting the pilot on the roll axis rather than stuck out to one side.

But "horses for courses", so there's no right answer - and a 150 Aerobat could be a hoot. Just not one I would consider.
 
I did a Aerobatic Course in a Aerobat years ago, delightful
airplane. Don't figure to get TBO on the engine as they get
Over-revved frequently. Sounds like the ideal airplane for your
mission.
Dave
 
Is there a flight school that instructs aerobatics in the 150 ?? I'd like to talk to someone. I am looking but not finding anything. The search continues.
 
Watch The Mechanic with Charles Bronson and you will definitely want one.
 
FastEddieB said:
With a stick in a snap roll to the right, the stick moves pretty much in a straight line to the right rear, to get full up elevator and full right aileron in one motion.
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Barnyard aerobatic technique at its finest. :D Just giving you a hard time. ;) There is a much better snap technique that is quite different from this.
 
Going to pick it up later this month.
 
Snap with full aileron and full elevator only? A typical snap is "almost" full elevator as fast as you can pull with full right or left rudder at the same time. As soon as you pull hard to stall the wing, release some back pressure to almost neural or you will bury the snap. Apply full opposite rudder to stop the snap. It takes practice to get everything just right but it's fun to do. Don't have your entry speed to high either. 90 is good for a Decathlon and 90-110 for a Pitts. Read the POH for the plane you are flying for speeds.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
YIKES!!!

You guys are right - of course a snap roll is rapid back elevator and full RUDDER, since it's effectively a spin in the horizontal plane.

Aileron may assist, but us in no way required nor primary.

Brain fart - it happens!
 
Bill Jennings said:
This lady is a disciple of Bill Kershner and assumed running the flight school after his passing.

http://www.aceaerobaticschool.com/
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She did a presentation for our chapter last week. Impressive knowledge of spins and recovery from. Very fun person, I would love to go take some dual from her. Bill K's Aerobat is in the Smithsonian, her's is a near duplicate.

Ernie
 
Aerobats are expensive for what they are.

IFR and Acro don't often combine in a plane that's good at ether.

The decalathlon or citabria is a purpose built acro plane that is also a great sturdy all around plane. The acrobat is a docile trike that they tried to make into a acro plane. It's like making a autocross car out of a vette or a civic.

If you want avionics and a snappy plane go experimental, a glass or lance with dynon sky view sounds like a good fit.
 
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PAustin said:
Snap with full aileron and full elevator only? A typical snap is "almost" full elevator as fast as you can pull with full right or left rudder at the same time. As soon as you pull hard to stall the wing, release some back pressure to almost neural or you will bury the snap. Apply full opposite rudder to stop the snap. It takes practice to get everything just right but it's fun to do. Don't have your entry speed to high either. 90 is good for a Decathlon and 90-110 for a Pitts. Read the POH for the plane you are flying for speeds.
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That's mostly correct, though I will say that the best snaps come from NOT pulling enough elevator to stall the wing. The best snap rotation comes from using as little elevator as possible such that the full application of rudder THEN stalls ONE wing rather than using enough aft stick to initially stall the wings before applying rudder. This is why I feel a snap is not simply a horizontal spin. In most airplanes, it does not take anywhere near full aft elevator to produce a good snap. More like half or less deflection. But you must move the stick very quickly and time and measure everything just right with the aft stick movement, rudder input, and unload of the elevator. For anyone who cares, here's a thread I started on this subject:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/foru...www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?

James331 said:
The decalathlon or citabria is a purpose built acro plane that is also a great sturdy all around plane. The acrobat is a docile trike that they tried to make into a acro plane. It's like making a autocross car out of a vette or a civic.
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Well the Decathlon possibly, but the Citabria is nothing but an Aeronca Champ with a slightly sturdier structure - same barn door sluggish ailerons. The structure is almost identical to the Champ, which was of course, a 1940's trainer. The Citabria is a long way from being purpose-built for acro, despite its optimistic "Airbatic" name. The Decathlon is closer to being purpose-built, but it's just another incarnation of the Citabria. None stray too far from the Champ, since type certification requirements made a total redesign cost prohibitive. I think an Aerobat handles slightly better than a 7ECA Citabria (if we're comparing apples to apples) and is just as strong. Has more modern ailerons. It just doesn't have the same "classic" appeal.
 
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I love reading this stuff thanks so much for posting. I don't know how much horizon tilting I will do but my plan is just to have a fun safe plane that I can roll and do some limited maneuvers safely. I also like riding wheelies on my motorcycles which is probably more unsafe. LOL I like having the stronger aircraft, just because I'll feel more comfortable doing spins.

Can one easily HURT the Aerobat by ham-fisted control inputs ?? I plan to take instruction from Catherine and I have some Pitts training. Not that I am qualified but I know a few things. I can fall out of a loop or Immelman with the best of them. I didn't realize the Aerobat could do these maneuvers.

There are reasons I did not opt for a Citabria or Decathlon or a Pitts, Eagle or a Sky bolt. Aerobatic will be a small amount of my flying. Then again.... I might love it... the gentle stuff that is.
 
etemplet said:
Can one easily HURT the Aerobat by ham-fisted control inputs ?? I plan to take instruction from Catherine and I have some Pitts training.
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You can hurt any aerobatic airplane by mishandling it. I know I'm stating the obvious, but you just need to learn the requirements of each type, and fly it appropriately. Good training is worth every penny.
 
whifferdill said:
You can hurt any aerobatic airplane by mishandling it. I know I'm stating the obvious, but you just need to learn the requirements of each type, and fly it appropriately. Good training is worth every penny.
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Agreed ;) but I remember from my Pitts training that "tail slides" were evil. That was explained to me at the top of a Hammerhead. Pretty much I was taught that whenever things went wrong, just pull the stick back all the way and push right rudder, then recover from the spin. Airspeed permitting of course. Most of my botched stuff was that I stalled out of the maneuver.


Before I try anything in the Aerobat, you can bet I will spend the money and take some instruction from Catherine. There is also the instructor that taught me in a Pitts that lives in this area. I don't know if he still does that sort of thing.

Do they have competition aerobatics in this type of aircraft? Not that I want to compete but now that I'll have some wheels, I think I'd like to fly over and gawk. :hairraise:
 
etemplet said:
Agreed ;) but I remember from my Pitts training that "tail slides" were evil. That was explained to me at the top of a Hammerhead.
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Why are they "evil"? :confused:

They are just like any other maneuver, however not something I would personally do in a Aerobat.

etemplet said:
Pretty much I was taught that whenever things went wrong, just pull the stick back all the way and push right rudder, then recover from the spin. Airspeed permitting of course. Most of my botched stuff was that I stalled out of the maneuver.
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You should learn to recover from botched maneuvers without putting it into a spin and recovering from that instead. Botched maneuvers sometimes means losing a good bit of altitude, going into another altitude losing maneuver could end poorly.

I would get this book - Basic Aerobatics by Mike Goulian. It will help you gather a stronger understanding of some of the basics.

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Aerobatics-Geza-Szurovy/dp/0070629269



etemplet said:
Do they have competition aerobatics in this type of aircraft? Not that I want to compete but now that I'll have some wheels, I think I'd like to fly over and gawk. :hairraise:
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Yes. You could even compete at the Primary level. Getting involved in competition aerobatics and being around those that compete in it is a great way to safely get involved in aerobatics.

https://www.iac.org/
 
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etemplet said:
Agreed ;) but I remember from my Pitts training that "tail slides" were evil. That was explained to me at the top of a Hammerhead. Pretty much I was taught that whenever things went wrong, just pull the stick back all the way and push right rudder, then recover from the spin. Airspeed permitting of course. Most of my botched stuff was that I stalled out of the maneuver.
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The tailslide is a delicate maneuver, only to be performed in suitable aicraft after receiving training. It's the one maneuver I can think of that can most easily damage the airplane if you don't know what you're doing. If you set up the slide improperly and really luck out, you can get an excessively long slide, with speed build up that can possibly damage the control surfaces. Tailslides are generally intentionally limited to about a fuselage length or less.

'Hammerslides' are different, and it's not as easy to get a damaging slide due to the fact that hammerheads are done at full power, and the propellor slipstream forces will make it hard to inadvertently slide backward for long if you wait way too late to kick rudder. Full power also keeps the airplane from sliding backward as quickly. Normal tailslides are done at idle power, so the airplane is literally falling backwards, and it will accelerate quickly. Definitely not an approved maneuver in an Aerobat. If I recall correctly, the hammerhead is not an approved maneuver either.

etemplet said:
Do they have competition aerobatics in this type of aircraft? Not that I want to compete but now that I'll have some wheels, I think I'd like to fly over and gawk. :hairraise:
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You can participate in competition acro in any airplane that will do a loop, roll, and spin. Aerobats have competed in Primary before. This year's sequence is really short and simple - just 4 figures - a loop, half Cuban, 270 turn, and roll. An Aerobat will do it. But to fly the figures such that they will score well, you must fly very short negative G segments during the Cuban and roll which will cause the engine to sag for a moment, and a little oil dumped out. None of this is a problem as long as you monitor oil loss and don't mind maybe cleaning the belly.
 
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Wow, thanks for the info. I think I would like to attend the competition for fun and being around people that know is always a plus.

My reference to a tail slide was simply that I probably waited too long to kick rudder at the top of the Hammerhead and my instructor told me, "you don't want to do that, it can damage the airplane." Hence in my mind.... tail slides are... evil. LOL

Simple easy stuff, gently, on occasion but enough to be proficient, after receiving good instruction in type.
 
etemplet said:
My reference to a tail slide was simply that I probably waited too long to kick rudder at the top of the Hammerhead and my instructor told me, "you don't want to do that, it can damage the airplane." Hence in my mind.... tail slides are... evil. LOL
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What type of plane were you flying? I can't think of any commonly used acro trainer likely to be damaged just by kicking late on a hammer. But there's a super easy way to avoid tailsliding any airplane you're flying - tie a piece of yarn to the strut or somewhere outside the propwash where it's visible and can trail. Don't let that piece of yarn reverse direction. Kick before it reverses. Some people actually use the string as an indicator for when to kick for a hammer. I use other means of judging this, but hammers are a whole other subject. You'll even find lots of info if you search this site.
 
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whifferdill said:
What type of plane were you flying? I can't think of any commonly used acro trainer likely to be damaged just by kicking late on a hammer. But there's a super easy way to avoid tailsliding any airplane you're flying - tie a piece of yarn to the strut or somewhere outside the propwash where it's visible and can trail. Don't let that piece of yarn reverse direction. Kick before it reverses. Some people actually use the string as an indicator for when to kick for a hammer. I use other means of judging this, but hammers are a whole other subject. You'll even find lots of info if you search this site.
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I was in a Pitts S2A with my instructor and yes we used the string method. Soon as the string backed up, kicked in rudder (left) and aileron (right). Is that correct it has been awhile? LOL I pushed too far forward one time and everything looked kinda funny. I'm trying to remember if he called it an inverted spin. Whatever it was, I was pushed out of the seat. I remember looking forward going... what the hey ?? Full rudder in the direction of rotation and aft stick recovery. I don't know how long it would have taken me to figure that on out.... YIKES !!
 
Full rudder in the ***opposite*** direction of rotation and aft stick recovery.
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lr60plt said:
*Cough*
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I can see how he might be thinking rudder in the same direction of rotation. In an inverted spin, the roll component can easily dominate a pilot's attention - which is why some pilots inexperienced with inverted spins can be confused by accidental ones. A left rudder inverted spin rolls right. Right rudder would recover the spin. But definitely rudder opposite the YAW direction, which is opposite the roll direction in an inverted spin. The best way to avoid the confusion is to simply be willing to pull power and neutralize ALL controls when you've lost control of the airplane or your situational awareness. Most acro planes will recover anything by doing that.
 
^Yup! Agreed.

All ill add to that is if you are going to try to recover from a spin with control input and need to determine the direction of yaw...your eyes should only be focused directly down the center line of the cowl.

As mentioned inverted spins can get confusing...and if you don't know where to look it will only add to the confusion (ie: if you try to look "up" through the canopy...which is down at the earth spinning beneath you).
 
lr60plt said:
*Cough*
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Hmmm.... I did some reading on that years ago and thought I had it figured out. LOL So opposite rudder not matter inverted or regular spin ? right spin, left rudder no matter what ?

I do like the idea of pulling the throttle and letting go of the controls. LOL :yes: Motorcycles do the same thing. the SPIT off the rider and have a go at it alone. :D
 
Rudder in the same direction as the spin will keep you in the spin all the way to the ground.

Yes, it is always rudder in the opposite of the direction of yaw...regardless of inverted or upright. And the only way to determine that direction is to look directly down the center line of the cowl. Using the terms right and left can get confusing (upright / inverted)....so to keep it simple just look over the cowl, the world will be going one direction...push the rudder to make it stop/go the other way.

There are other things to do at the right time as well (elevator use/timing) and they can change from airplane to airplane. The Aerobat is actually one of the airplanes that can be put into a certain spin mode where the hands-off recovery will NOT work. Best bet is a lot more reading and airplane-specific training.
 
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etemplet said:
So opposite rudder not matter inverted or regular spin ? right spin, left rudder no matter what ?
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Yes, a right rudder inverted spin will not recover with right rudder. :) But it could be dangerous to assume that you simply apply the opposite rudder you are currently holding in order to recover a spin. If you've accidentally crossed over and don't realize it, this won't work. If you don't know what a crossover spin is, I shot this some time back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DJlced8gw

etemplet said:
I do like the idea of pulling the throttle and letting go of the controls. LOL :yes:
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OK, just don't count on that working. ;) Letting go of everything and physically moving all controls (rudder, elevator, and rudder) to neutral are two different things. lr60plt's post above is correct. By "hands off", he's referring to the Beggs-Muller emergency recovery procedure, which involves applying (the correct) opposite rudder, and letting go of the stick/yoke. This is not guaranteed to work in all airplanes in all spin modes. The Aerobat and Decathlon are two that do not. That is not to say that these airplanes have trouble with active spin recovery (PARE). I assume you know what "PARE" refers to. If not, there's Google. If you really want the best spin training money can buy, go see Bill Finagin in Annapolis, MD.
 
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The aerobatic will teach you energy management too. I think you'll have a great little friend to play with.
Just make sure your CFI shows you the correct way to do and undo maneuvers and how to fix botched ones. Especially if you get inverted and don't want to be that she works with you to make : power, push, roll an automatic response. It's common for a pilot to pull when they should push.
 
I still have my old books, "roll around a point" and "Conquest of lines and Symmetry" and... I have my silk scarf as well. LOL I can't discuss aerobatics with any degree of coherence because flying and talking about it are two different things for me. I can only appreciate your ability to speak from a level of understanding I have yet to obtain. I last flew aerobatics in 1987 but the details seemed to be etched into my memory like it all happened yesterday. I remember a raised level of awareness in everything I did and that is with me to this day.
 
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It's been a while since the original post...so maybe you got an Aerobat. Congrats. My experience with my IFR cert. 77 Aerobat has been great. My plane flies more than any other on the field, bar-none other than the flight school jalopies, We take it over the beach with the windows open in the evenings, Saturday morning pancake breakfasts, pizza, one fuel stop will get you 500 miles (yes, in 6 hours). 6 gallons per hour at the absolute most. Flies at least 3 times per week, even if just for 0.5 before work.
I have two teens that have learned to fly in her in the past two years...I mean really fly...spin marathons left and right, upside down, accelerated stalls galore, over-the-top spins, loops, barrel rolls, snap rolls, Cubans, wing overs, approach turn stalls, nose-high slow pattern stalls, loss of power on takeoff...you name it. Now that they know how not to become a statistic, and are having TONS of fun in a simple ride, they will probably fly their whole lives and teach their kids the same way (As opposed to the squeamish flight school products you see these days...crashing on their first solo, plowing into a smoking hole before they reach 300 hours, frankly afraid of the darn plane)
If you want to fly to Chicago on the weekends from the southeast, probably not your plane, skiing...not your plane, serious IFR definitely not your plane (nor any other plane less than $300,000) but I've flown AV8-B Harriers, Hornets, A-4s, F-5Fs, Hawker Sea Fury's, P-51s, T-6s, Pitts, Extra 300's , Super D's, Warriors, 182's, 172's and Stearman's...but the one I like best is the one I can fly, and afford to fly, each and every day of the week, and that would be my Aerobat. Strapping on a chute, laughing and doing loops with friends is gravy. That's why I learned to fly in the first place!
Buy a real nice one with a good engine and a fresh annual for around $40,000 and go have a blast.
 
All around for what sounds like your mission, it's a great plane. If you get your CFI along the way, all the better, you have a good all around little trainer that you can let students really learn what an airplane is capable of and how to handle it there. You could even provide glass an a 750 and provide cost effect specialty training on avionics. That is the next big market in training.

The economics of the 150/152 are really hard to beat, they are even money makers, no two ways about it, and always have been.
 
...but the one I like best is the one I can fly, and afford to fly, each and every day of the week, and that would be my Aerobat.
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My sentiments exactly, and welcome to the Blue Board 77Aerobat!
 
Why not get a nice Citabria if you want to do acro? Some are IFR equipped. I started in a 150 Cessna Aerobat a fun plane but too small for me. Good luck.
 
skynewbie said:
Why not get a nice Citabria if you want to do acro?
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Because Citabrias are acro pigs. The Aerobat actually has slightly nimbler handling than a Citabrick. But we're close to splitting hairs here.
 
The 7ECA is much more plane all around though. Acro to backcountry, to skis, to floats, etc. find a nice metal spared one with the avionics you like & good fabric and you got yourself a plane you will enjoy as a student all the way to ATP.
 
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