Not to be redundant but...CAP

I'm wondering that if local law enforcement asked a non CAP pilot to fly a given area looking for whatever, lost airplane, people sneaking across the border, or drug smuggling operations, and agreed to pay for fuel and related expenses, if most airplane owners would be more than happy to help out.

Granted, their efforts would not be as regimented as CAP, their grid would have to be worked out by whoever does the asking, but it would be a whole lot cheaper for tax payers in the long run.

I know if the sheriff called me and said, "Hey John, you wanna fly out in the Julian area for an hour or so, see if you can spot an airplane wreck, we'll even pay for the gas if you do it?" I would be all over that one in a heartbeat.

Do we really need a twenty three million dollar a year flying club?

-John
 
sacbluesman said:
I’m trying to get some factual info on CAP. Of course, opinions and suggestions are welcome too. First off, I did a search on the forums and didn’t get my questions answered quite all the way hence this new post...Please be gentle if I overlooked something obvious.
I recently been looking into joining CAP. My goal and intention is to get some air time and also for that ooey gooey feeling of being able to provide help when needed.
It appears that the organization makes you jump through a bunch of hoops and paperwork without any guarantees of anything. The list of requirements per the squadron page seems endless. I contacted one squadron and asked a straightforward question of how long it would take to be flying. I got a roundabout response and was told to come to a meeting or two. I really want to do this as a selfless thing to help but my time is valuable too. What I’m trying to avoid is signing up only to deal with egos of people who are suit and tie by day and then pretend to be Maverick & Goose by night. I don’t know if this is the norm, but what I've read on the forum so far kinda says that there is a lot of focus on rank and title. I looked into Pilots and Paws as an alternative but not having my own plane pretty much counts me out.
I work a normal job and also actively training for my ratings. I suppose I’m somewhat busy but still would like to help by volunteering my abilities to a good cause. After that long essay, here are my questions.


1. For those of you that have or had direct experience with CAP, how frequently do missions come about?
2. Is there some average time frame that I can expect to be PIC or co-pilot?
3. I have no issue volunteering my time and abiding by any guidelines set forth to reach the goal but you guys/gals who are doing it, are you finding satisfaction with CAP?
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Answers:
1) Not very often. I think in three years, I've seen five live missions come through in our area. Since the demise of 121.5 ELTs, there are far fewer ELT missions. These days missions tend to be focused around Emergency Management events, in our area a tornado or hurricane usually.

2) Requirements for being PIC
a) to fly CAP airplanes, take a "Form 5" checkride with a CAP examiner. The standards for the ride are the FAA standards for the most advanced ticket you hold. Repeat every two years.
b) Be a transport mission pilot (move airplanes from point to point without flying a SR/DR mission), min 50 hours XC, 100 hours PIC and have a current "Form 5".
c) Be a mission pilot (fly airplanes on missions), be a transport mission pilot and have 175 hours PIC.

3) Not really.

There are no Mavericks. The people are pilots.

There are some egos. But it's a huge organization, you're going to have a cross section of a lot of people.

There is a lot of paperwork. Tons of it. There are people who are retentative about the paperwork. If that's going to bother you, it's not your place.
 
Not only is it utterly ridiculous, it's contrary to regs! There is no requirement to do all that for a Form 5 checkout. In fact, they could get in BIG trouble from their Wing Standards/Eval guys for making such stipulations.
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It also came from the wing stan-eval. It was their check pilot with whom I was working.

Far from getting into big trouble, it was their decision to conduct the program that way, and their requirement to achieve Scanner, Observer, and then to get through the mission pilot certification.

Bear in mind I was a scanner, an observer, and I was a mission pilot when I was a cadet (no longer allowed). I was also a cadet orientation pilot, and an instructor. I taught airborne SAR, radiological monitoring, communications, and mountain flying. I was an active participant on a ground team for years, and taught survival, airborne and ground DF'ing, etc. I know what's involved and how the program should be run.

Also worth noting is that the reason I was involved this time is an invitation on the part of CAP. I was asked by their flight operations personnel (including a wing stan-eval check pilot) to come aboard to provide check airman services, because they were short. Imagine my disappointment at being asked to do that, then go through all the ridiculous hopping, just to help them out. I don't mind giving up some free time to assist, but I'm not going to dedicate a year of my very precious free time just to meet the qualifications (again) to train someone in a 182.

Even the basic Form 5 checkout required far too much manure-wading to make it worth the while...and it's a matter of being worth the while to help them. It doesn't do a thing for me; it was a gesture, at their request, to help them. No thanks.
 
John Baker said:
I'm wondering that if local law enforcement asked a non CAP pilot to fly a given area looking for whatever, lost airplane, people sneaking across the border, or drug smuggling operations, and agreed to pay for fuel and related expenses, if most airplane owners would be more than happy to help out.
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There are significant legal problems with that unless you deputized the aircrew. Posse Comitatus and problems with jurisdiction in most of those examples given. Welcome to modern America where six agencies may all claim those "jobs" are theirs and want to justify their existence.

The legal implications if a civilian gets hurt flying for government, are pretty messy. As are the aircraft insurance issues.

I've also seen it done Mission Impossible style.., "You go look but I'll disavow any knowledge of this conversation." and the pilot is a buddy of the Sheriff.. Usually out here in the West in small towns... Not where it'd be official.

But as soon as money changes hands, there's problems. Buy the gas, it comes with all the liability and other problems.

The U.S. still thinks lawyers are the answer to her modern problems. Until that ends...

Here in CO, CAP is both chartered Nationally and chartered as a State Agency. Knowing which type of mission you're flying and how that changes your insurance liability if you bend the aircraft, is critical if you're paying even the slightest bit of attention. (Renter's insurance w/CAP rider added, highly recommended if you have any assets at all.)

We also have strong restrictions about involvement with law enforcement. Generally the answer is "No." Non-law enforcement may not do "surveillance" of Citizens. We can (with appropriate approvals) take Law Enforcement aloft to let THEM do their job, but we can never act as such.

It's serious enough that dual-hatted members must decide which organization they're working for and may not cross over in any way during a duty day.
 
denverpilot said:
There are significant legal problems with that unless you deputized the aircrew. Posse Comitatus and problems with jurisdiction in most of those examples given. Welcome to modern America where six agencies may all claim those "jobs" are theirs and want to justify their existence.

The legal implications if a civilian gets hurt flying for government, are pretty messy. As are the aircraft insurance issues.

I've also seen it done Mission Impossible style.., "You go look but I'll disavow any knowledge of this conversation." and the pilot is a buddy of the Sheriff.. Usually out here in the West in small towns... Not where it'd be official.

But as soon as money changes hands, there's problems. Buy the gas, it comes with all the liability and other problems.

The U.S. still thinks lawyers are the answer to her modern problems. Until that ends...

Here in CO, CAP is both chartered Nationally and chartered as a State Agency. Knowing which type of mission you're flying and how that changes your insurance liability if you bend the aircraft, is critical if you're paying even the slightest bit of attention. (Renter's insurance w/CAP rider added, highly recommended if you have any assets at all.)

We also have strong restrictions about involvement with law enforcement. Generally the answer is "No." Non-law enforcement may not do "surveillance" of Citizens. We can (with appropriate approvals) take Law Enforcement aloft to let THEM do their job, but we can never act as such.

It's serious enough that dual-hatted members must decide which organization they're working for and may not cross over in any way during a duty day.
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As an real-life example...I fly as a tech (translation: I'm giving the pilots extremely detailed commands as to altitude, speed, heading, etc while the operator is controlling the monitoring equipment) in one of CAP's very specalized aircraft - the ones that have IR and spectral analysis equipment. These are used to evaluate flood damage, etc. and are very different from the high-quality photography that's being used to evaluate results of the fires in Colorado.

NOTE: CAP does NOT fly during an ongoing fire anywhere near the fire or other type of event. CAP is a civilian aircraft and is required to respect the TFRs and NOTAMs just live everyone else.

Back in April we were on a training flight in east Colorado. The specs for these flight are 90 kts and 1000 agl in a very narrow mapping pattern about 5 minutes for each leg. Local residents saw this 9 passenger airplane in very bright CAP colors toodlng along and complained. The training flights have been suspended until the USAF figures out a way to assure residents that we are not doing surveillance, not peeping into homes, not looking for pot farms, etc.
 
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murphey said:
CAP is a civilian aircraft and is required to respect the TFRs and NOTAMs just live everyone else.
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we got to bust the TFRs during a flood - photos / taking up VIPs
 
Posse Comitatus and problems with jurisdiction in most of those examples given.
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Posse Comitatus doesn't prevent a civilian from assisting a government agency. It prevents federal troops (specifically Army and Air Force) from enforcing the law domestically.
 
Oddly, it does apply to CAP when on an Air Force assigned and funded mission, particularly when photographing people. The military is not allowed to conduct surveillance of citizens. I think one third of photography training in CAP is to drill that in exclusively...
 
DouglasBader said:
It also came from the wing stan-eval. It was their check pilot with whom I was working.

Far from getting into big trouble, it was their decision to conduct the program that way, and their requirement to achieve Scanner, Observer, and then to get through the mission pilot certification.
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Maybe I misunderstood. I thought in your previous post you were saying that you had to go through all that training (plus mountain training, you mentioned) just to take a Form 5 checkride. No?
 
murphey said:
The training flights have been suspended until the USAF figures out a way to assure residents that we are not doing surveillance, not peeping into homes, not looking for pot farms, etc.
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Have you forgotten about CAP's Counter Drug program?
 
Hey Murph, there's a "coordinating agency" a phone number, and often a frequency listed on every TFR. Civilian aircraft can enter if it's approved. No specific restriction about Civilian aircraft. It's up to whomever is coordinating.

Depends on the request made by the served agency and how busy the area is. Generally, no need to enter them at all, but it's possible anywhere, with prior coordination.

There were some coordination requests during specific flights in CO. Up to the Incident Commander and the Aircrew. Mostly as a precaution when the request put aircraft in tight to one. Altitude restrictions often came with it.

News helo was also right up against them quite a bit, and was coordinated to enter with prior approval when emergency managers wanted a specific real-time view of something. Sometimes you just need a gyro-stabilized camera that can shoot from miles and miles away.

Just a couple of examples of civilians entering TFRs. If you have a darn good reason to be in there, you'll have a discreet squawk and any other instructions.

From what I've heard of Katrina, everyone was in them from time to time. Altitude restrictions were apparently extremely important there... rescue helos were low, various stacked altitudes for different purposes above them. Some folks flew Comm missions carrying radio gear above the dead ground-based infrastructure. Hours of lazy circles at economy power settings so folks could communicate through the "high-bird".

I have always joked those were the "bladder of steel" missions. Used to need them here more in the 90s before some strategic changes were made to our Comm system. Was a "high-bird" up for almost every mission west into the mountains back in the day.

Requests are quite varied these days. The traditional ELT/SAR mission is only one of many. Often, agencies don't even really know we're an option, but in places where we don't act too stupid to be invited to the show, they're realizing volunteer pilots and aircraft can be an asset. Just depends a lot on who's in charge on both sides, and whether the mission requested is reasonable, safe, legal, etc.

There was some pretty cool stuff done here this summer, but we fly for the served agency and press is handled by their PIO folks. Often there's no Press about us, other than "they participated" since it's not about us, it's about the served agency. They're just requesting resources. (They wouldn't typically release a Press story about some Sierra Hotel bulldozer crew either... just go get the job done.) Usually our PIO folks get permission to put at least an article in the organization's internal magazine, or a temporary blurb on the website. That's about it.
 
Palmpilot said:
Have you forgotten about CAP's Counter Drug program?
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CAP can look for pot fields, map smuggling routes, monitor property, etc - but is prohibited from performing surveillance on citizens.

From CAP Regulation 60-6:
Posse Comitatus Act. The Posse Comitatus Act directly affects CAP’s support to civilian law enforcement. Generally, CAP may not give direct law enforcement assistance to civil authorities and may not be used to execute the laws of, or to perform civilian enforcement functions within, the United States. There are statutory exceptions that provide for limited indirect support to civilian law enforcement agencies that are charged with implementing the anti-drug laws. Specifically CAP can provide detection, monitoring and communication of movement of air and sea traffic. CAP may perform aerial reconnaissance of property but not surveillance of people. CAP may operate equipment to facilitate communications in connection with counterdrug law enforcement operations. CAP may provide repeater aircraft, operate CAP radio equipment in support of counterdrug activities, and transport civilian law enforcement agents in support of counterdrug operations. CAP members as an Auxiliary to the Air Force may not participate directly:
1) In arrest, search and seizure, stop and frisk, or interdiction of vessels, aircraft, or vehicles.
2) In surveillance or pursuit of individuals.
3) As informants, undercover agents, or investigators.

NOTE: A violation of Posse Comitatus, 18 U.S.C. 1385, can result in a fine of up to $10,000 and imprisonment for up to 2 years and administrative action under applicable CAP regulations. Direct questions concerning Posse Comitatus to NHQ CAP/General Counsel (GC) and CAP-USAF Judge Advocate (JA). The final authority on these issues rests with CAP-USAF.
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i tried to join so i could give glider rides. local guy forgot one of many signatures, it got sent back. he sent it back in with the sig and they say they never got it. I got busy with soaring for the summer and haven't had a chance to follow up. We've got a bunch of cadets in line to take rides and do have one of the local CAP guys now checked out to fly the club glider for them so I'll just fly the towplane to help out until I have time to get things figured out.
 
rainsux said:
Factory built
Within TBO
Current inspection
Marine radio, external antenna, ships power


Club planes may be acceptable, if an equity/ownership club and the other owners approve.

Whenever flying for USCG, your plane becomes a USCG asset and they provide insurance. USCG reimburses the actual fuel cops plus $N/hour ... Where N is a function of HP.


The biggest problem I find with AUXAIR is ... Picking an aviation friendly and knowledgeable flotilla. The paperwork reqs are modest, but a bad flotilla choice can make it insufferable, each in their own special way.
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Great news! I need to follow up on the latest email, but, thanks to all my persistence last week I found a "pilot only" flotilla (I think). Also found one that meets at SFO Coast Guard Air Station (helos only) and one that meets in an old Air Force Base near Sacramento. I should talk to the guy tonight or this week to find out, many have meetings next week.
 
This thread had me laughing out loud here at work.

If you do not get to fly or its going to be a lot of years before you get to touch the controls of a cessna because cap also involves other stuff, better join the boy scouts and give out the aviation merit badge. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
cirrusmx said:
This thread had me laughing out loud here at work.

If you do not get to fly or its going to be a lot of years before you get to touch the controls of a cessna because cap also involves other stuff, better join the boy scouts and give out the aviation merit badge. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
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Seems as if your experience mirrors mine.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Great news! I need to follow up on the latest email, but, thanks to all my persistence last week I found a "pilot only" flotilla (I think). Also found one that meets at SFO Coast Guard Air Station (helos only) and one that meets in an old Air Force Base near Sacramento. I should talk to the guy tonight or this week to find out, many have meetings next week.
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The "old Air Force Base" is McClellan Air Force Base, home of CGAS Sacramento, (and also a major CDF air base). The dents in the runway aren't all mine. :D
 
Threefingeredjack said:
The "old Air Force Base" is McClellan Air Force Base, home of CGAS Sacramento, (and also a major CDF air base). The dents in the runway aren't all mine. :D
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Good to know. I was there with the Beech Boys and went on 3 formation flights, two in Bo's and one in a Cirrus. Long, exhausting day but very educational. That runway is LOOOONG.
 
Just the facts:

I joined CAP for one year.

I realy wanted to help - spent 9 months going to meetings and being ignored.

I took all the online courses and sceduled a meeting with the man in charge to look everything over and see where to go from there. At the sceduled time I went to meet him and he was chatting with a few of the other good old boys - he told me he would be just a minute - I sat outside (within earshot) for 45 minutes while they shot the breeze on non CAP stuff - I then went to my pickup and headed home.

He had my email - the meeting was setup by email - he did not even have the common decency to email me to setup another meeting or even give me a reason for his actions - nothing.

It was truelly a good old boys club.

I was very dissapointed.

Today - 3 years later - I am still stuck on their email mailing list.
 
Benchracer52 said:
Today - 3 years later - I am still stuck on their email mailing list.
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For exactly this reason, any new organization or forum I get involved with gets their own unique email address, courtesy of Google, until I am extremely certain that they haven't placed me on an unwanted spam list, newsletter, etc - and until I am extremely certain that they are in my life for the long haul.

With all of my email accounts syncing to my iPhone/iPad, once the address is set up, it is simple to maintain.
 
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