Not to be redundant but...CAP

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sacbluesman

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sacbluesman
I’m trying to get some factual info on CAP. Of course, opinions and suggestions are welcome too. First off, I did a search on the forums and didn’t get my questions answered quite all the way hence this new post...Please be gentle if I overlooked something obvious.
I recently been looking into joining CAP. My goal and intention is to get some air time and also for that ooey gooey feeling of being able to provide help when needed.
It appears that the organization makes you jump through a bunch of hoops and paperwork without any guarantees of anything. The list of requirements per the squadron page seems endless. I contacted one squadron and asked a straightforward question of how long it would take to be flying. I got a roundabout response and was told to come to a meeting or two. I really want to do this as a selfless thing to help but my time is valuable too. What I’m trying to avoid is signing up only to deal with egos of people who are suit and tie by day and then pretend to be Maverick & Goose by night. I don’t know if this is the norm, but what I've read on the forum so far kinda says that there is a lot of focus on rank and title. I looked into Pilots and Paws as an alternative but not having my own plane pretty much counts me out.
I work a normal job and also actively training for my ratings. I suppose I’m somewhat busy but still would like to help by volunteering my abilities to a good cause. After that long essay, here are my questions.
1. For those of you that have or had direct experience with CAP, how frequently do missions come about?
2. Is there some average time frame that I can expect to be PIC or co-pilot?
3. I have no issue volunteering my time and abiding by any guidelines set forth to reach the goal but you guys/gals who are doing it, are you finding satisfaction with CAP?
 
Just did a bit more digging and came across a good post from 7 years ago. I'm not sure how applicable it is for today but good info nonetheless.
 
Today I spent several hours trying to figure out the flying requirements for a Flotilla (Auxillary). With the meetings and yearly dues and uniforms and fingerprints / background / criminal checks, written tests and trainings (swimming too)..... and the 2+ year wait to get into a plane and be a co-pilot which I'm told is basically not that much (maybe comms).

I don't want to say I gave up but I enjoy the EAA and other local organizations even though I don't get to fly. Angel Flight has actually come through once (with me as a Mission Assistant).

I forget why it is I didn't look into CAP but a pilot recently mentioned CAF (though they charge $200 or more per year).
 
> the 2+ year wait to get into a plane and be a co-pilot which I'm told is basically not that much (maybe comms).


You should be able to get into a plane in a lot less than 2 years. If you get into the wrong flotilla, it could be more. The key is joining a flotilla that is aviation aware/friendly. Most are only aware of those, um, pointy-ended, floaty things.

If you have an ownership interest in the plane, co-pilots fly as PIC. The only real limits on co-pilots is: 1). No SAR. 2) No IFR.

Wanna take this disc offline?
 
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Another option might be your county's Aero Squadron. Where I live, the requirement is 500 hours for PIC, zero for observer. Wear a uniform, go to monthly meetings, get to play with expensive cameras and gyro binoculars, and pay a few hundred dollars a year in dues and fees.
 
Have a listen to some of Steve Tupper's podcasts at airspeedonline.com
He talk extensively about CAP in a number of them.
 
I am soon to be the ONLY pilot in my squadron. I do not expect to fly at all though. To get flight time, CAP may not be the way to go. Sure you can fly, but to pilot requires a good amount of time, hours, and training. Even to use the airplane non-mission, it's an average of 30 an hour depending on the place and plane and 50ish for gas. Somewhat of a saving from average rental rate but there are several hoops and restrictions in using it.
 
For sure, CAP has aircraft to meet the mission requirements of their customer(s). As such, they operate unlike any flying club, and (in my opinion) are somewhat suspicious of people who join to get flight time. Folks who have a "volunteer spirit" and who are willing to put the time and effort to be professional in other aspects of the program tend to engender respect and will find it easier to transition into flying from what I have seen and from what I understand in my wing.

As a new pilot, I've been in CAP since 1989 and have worked at all levels in two different states on many projects and in many positions, so I am finding that people are excited and encouraging of my new license and desire to become proficient enough to fly CAP aircraft.
 
After the last CAP thread, I'm almost not willing to say anything. Too many folks with deep-seated dislike for CAP here due to individual events they've seen. They're pretty vocal.

Meanwhile, I do it. The organization isn't perfect and there's a lot of work besides anything to do with airplanes that needs to be done.

Anyone willing to volunteer should be volunteering for more than just flying. There's three crew member seats and at least ten different ground-based specialties. If you don't want to work toward qualifications for stuff besides the left seat, just stop and walk away.

The most active folks also take a Squadron job, typically. Logistics, Communications, Professional Development, whatever.

Squadrons are as different as the day is long. I'd agree with those who told you that you should attend a couple of meetings first. Maybe attend meetings at multiple squadrons if there are a number in your area.

As with any volunteer job, if you don't get along with the other folks, you'll have a bad experience. Find people you like, the rest is easy. Go looking at it as hoops to jump through, you'll quit in half a year.

I'm heavily involved in Communications. I have yet to bother with getting checked out in the aircraft. It's easier to just walk to my hangar with my keys and fly my airplane by 10x.

If you have specific questions, I'll happily answer.
 
clarification and a little more info: as for getting checked out, you have to take on online quiz, pass a test, and get a check ride (form 5) if you have the availability of a CAP CFI. then that depends on if you are current on the safety briefing, and all your initial computer based training. and then to use the plane you have to go through relatively small hoops like paperwork, flight release coordination from the flight release officer, and being in uniform - like anything, it isn't too much of a hassle once you get used to it.
 
denverpilot said:
After the last CAP thread, I'm almost not willing to say anything. Too many folks with deep-seated dislike for CAP here due to individual events they've seen. They're pretty vocal.
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I'm not unwilling, and I'll say it. CAP is CRAP.

I tried it three times over a period of 7 years with two different squadrons and got the same thing - it's a bunch of good old boys who know each other and believe that they should be worshipped by everyone under them in rank. There is no focus whatsoever on helping other people fly missions (or fly at all for that matter), it's all about massaging egos and remembering glory days. I've got no room for that.

The first time it happened I chalked it up to a bad apple. I moved 300 miles away and tried again there - same result. Moved back home a few years later and tried again with the locals, same thing. Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence. The third time is enemy action. These guys are all about spending tax dollars to stroke themselves, nothing more.

I'm not going to tell you not to do it - some people enjoy that sort of thing - but at least you've seen enough and read enough already to know to keep your eyes open. If it doesn't pass the sniff test, there's a reason.
 
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CAP mostly sucks, but it is a local issue. There are good groups out there, check out your local ones for yourself. Just be aware if you get a non-compatible feeling listen to it. Big problem CAP is a recreational bureaucrats wet dream. But again, it is all local, check yours out.
 
You said that non-ownership makes Pilots & Paws unavailable. I don't fly for them, so can neither confirm nor deny.

However, you can be a rental pilot and fly for either Angel Flight Central or LifeLine Pilots. I know that neither fly in CA, but Angel Flight West has a shortage of pilots at the moment. You could do worse than to look into their operation if you want to volunteer.

I think that the Coast Guard Auxiliary pretty much requires that you own a plane, so that is out.
 
gprellwitz said:
I think that the Coast Guard Auxiliary pretty much requires that you own a plane, so that is out.
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Any requirements on the type of plane?

And are they expecting you to use your personal plane for their missions?
 
Rigged4Flight said:
Any requirements on the type of plane?

And are they expecting you to use your personal plane for their missions?
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Factory built
Within TBO
Current inspection
Marine radio, external antenna, ships power


Club planes may be acceptable, if an equity/ownership club and the other owners approve.

Whenever flying for USCG, your plane becomes a USCG asset and they provide insurance. USCG reimburses the actual fuel cops plus $N/hour ... Where N is a function of HP.


The biggest problem I find with AUXAIR is ... Picking an aviation friendly and knowledgeable flotilla. The paperwork reqs are modest, but a bad flotilla choice can make it insufferable, each in their own special way.
 
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If your primary goal is to get a bunch of subsidized flight time, you won't like CAP. That is not its purpose. It is highly regulated, not because the members want to play "Maverick and Goose", but because the Air Force provides oversight and dictates most of the rules. Since flight time is subsidized (to some degree, at every level), it is mainly intended for training, personal currency, and real missions.

You can become a "Form 5" pilot fairly easily. You must complete some initial general emergency services training, but it is extremely easy. Next, you have to take an online open book test on the CAP flight regulations, complete an aircraft form (specifying things like oil, fuel, V-speeds, etc.), and take a CAPF 5 checkride. The checkride is similar to a private pilot checkride without the extended oral portion and cross-country flight planning.

As a "Form 5" pilot, you can rent the CAP airplane and use it for personal currency and training flights at a subsidized rate.

Many CAP airplanes are now G1000 equipped so there are additional training requirements for them.

Mission pilots need specialized training and there is a moderately long training path to get there. It's not a case of older-pilots trying to hold back newer-pilots. Specialized knowledge and skills are needed to perform the missions.
 
So... laying it out there:

  1. What is CAP's self-defined purpose today? (post demise of 121.5 ELT monitoring)
  2. What is CAP's actual addition of value to the local and/or national community?
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
So... laying it out there:

  1. What is CAP's self-defined purpose today? (post demise of 121.5 ELT monitoring)
  2. What is CAP's actual addition of value to the local and/or national community?
Click to expand...

3. A big pain in the ass at Oshkosh.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
So... laying it out there:

  1. What is CAP's self-defined purpose today? (post demise of 121.5 ELT monitoring)
  2. What is CAP's actual addition of value to the local and/or national community?
Click to expand...
CAP is transitioning to more of a disaster relief role. There are a lot of different roles we play now with airspace incursion training and intercept training for the air force. There is counter drug roles that some play with local law enforcement. During the oil spill CAP flew thousands of hours taking pictures and transporting personnel and equipment.

CAP's addition to the local and national community is pilot and volunteers who want to help out and save money for the communities.

I am a CAP mission mission pilot and some times I dislike the organization but I really like the folks in our local squadron. I get a fair amount of flying time, but I have put alot into it also. I am not here to build hours but just help out and stay in a flying community. You need to be in a squadron with an airplane to get more opportunities to fly. It is true that there is alot of hoops to jump thru and it can be very daunting at times, but once you get established its not so bad. Anyway just wanted to try and throw one mans opinion out there.
 
flyingmoose said:
CAP's addition to the local and national community is pilot and volunteers who want to help out and save money for the communities.
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Thanks for the response.

I believe the 2012 budget for CAP is around $23 million.

Are you saying that CAP saves that amount in a year vs. private contracting, or is the CAP just transferring the cost of some local activities to the national budget?
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Thanks for the response.

I believe the 2012 budget for CAP is around $23 million.

Are you saying that CAP saves that amount in a year vs. private contracting, or is the CAP just transferring the cost of some local activities to the national budget?
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With private contracting, don't you have to pay salaries and or wages to the workforce?

I would think that would add up to a lot more than $23 million nationwide.
 
Palmpilot said:
With private contracting, don't you have to pay salaries and or wages to the workforce?

I would think that would add up to a lot more than $23 million nationwide.
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You pay for the service rendered. Any appropriate expenses are rolled into the bill.

If the CAP went away tommorow, would local governments be spending greater than an ADDITIONAL $23MM annually on the services previously supplied by them by the CAP?
 
ClimbnSink said:
Just be aware if you get a non-compatible feeling listen to it.
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This is good advice about any group you are considering. Also, with national groups such as CAP a lot depends on the personality of the local group. This can change over time with changes in leadership.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
So... laying it out there:

  1. What is CAP's self-defined purpose today? (post demise of 121.5 ELT monitoring)
  2. What is CAP's actual addition of value to the local and/or national community?
Click to expand...
CAP also has a very capable independent communications system. Most of our aircraft are wired to transport a portable repeater, providing a communications system unfettered from commercial infrastructure that can range well over 100 miles in radius. We have used this quite effectively to offer communications when other emergency services (including police, fire, and EMS) have failed in a disaster area. We are also experimenting with flying other agencies' communications gear in a similar fashion. It is an exciting development in our expanded disaster relief mission.

Additionally (as some have mentioned) we are providing a "panoramic" or multifaceted view of disaster areas using airborne photographers, GPS encoding, and software solutions to our customers (FEMA, state, local, etc). It takes some training and can be pretty daunting work both for a pilot and for an airborne photographer, but it really provides an excellent service at a fraction of the cost of a paid military or civilian crew in a military aircraft or civilian helicopter.
 
Hm, this thread motivates me, perhaps I should start doing Angel Flight missions in the Flybaby. It probably wouldn't be too difficult to attach a cage for small children on the bottom of the fuselage.

Oh wait, just noticed you can't use an experimental aircraft, their loss...
 
I would echo the comments about the individuality of squadrons. (One caveat I will preface my opinion with is that my impressions are several years old.) Because of the shoestring budgets they operate under there is a very limited upper command structure to enforce uniformity of standards across the organization. I joined a squadron and apparently was identified as a threat to the existing command structure. I offered to assume the vacant role of Safety Officer and was rejected because of "lack of experience", even though I had completed the CAP required course. :dunno:
When we met after a disastrous SAREX in which the old boy's club foundered around with trying to coordinate air and cadet ground assets, I offered some valid opinions about lack of regular training being the reason that operational goals were not met. My observations were met with: "You're not a mission rated pilot, so you don't understand our problems." :rolleyes2: I decided that this outfit was not for me.

(Just a brief note, I am a retired from the USCG with the rank of Commander. I logged 11400 hours in the CG, with 3194 hours being actual SAR operations.)

I am sure there are very competent CAP squadrons out there, but non-uniformity is a death knell to any operation that seeks to provide consistency of performance. I just wasn't lucky enough to find one.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
You pay for the service rendered. Any appropriate expenses are rolled into the bill.

If the CAP went away tommorow, would local governments be spending greater than an ADDITIONAL $23MM annually on the services previously supplied by them by the CAP?
Click to expand...

If you mean additional to existing state budgets, I don't see how paying people to do what is now done by volunteers could turn out to be anything other than more expensive.
 
I was very actively involved in CAP for a number of years, years ago. The first hour in my logbook came as the result of an orientation flight as a cadet, and I ended up doing seven or eight years as a cadet.

More recently when I began attending some meetings, I was informed that I would require about a year to get through the first Form 5 checkout. That is, a routine checkout in the airplane. They wanted me to do a full observer program (the guy who looks out the window during a search) first, then a training program, a mountain course, and a series of online courses. This, to check out in a Cessna 182. Utterly ridiculous.

That sort of garbage is fine for people with nothing better to do with their time, but for someone who is working and has a busy life, it's nuts to be dragging out such a simple thing. Bearing in mind that I've got quite a bit of time in 182's, a lot of time flying mountains, a lot of SAR time, and a lot of time with CAP, to have to do such foolishness to such a great extent is wasteful, and resulted in me going elsewhere.

The first time I left CAP, it was over such issues. The final straw was arriving for a search after driving a couple of hours, to find no keys. A fat old man in an overstuffed flight suit proclaimed that nobody was flying the corporate (CAP) aircraft but him, and that it was "his" aircraft.

The organization certainly has people who are interested in making a difference, but it also is largely peopled with folks who want to wear a uniform and who treat it like a good old boys club. Some of those folks tend to forget that it's a civillian organization, and it's volunteer.
 
sacbluesman said:
I’m trying to get some factual info on CAP. Of course, opinions and suggestions are welcome too. First off, I did a search on the forums and didn’t get my questions answered quite all the way hence this new post...Please be gentle if I overlooked something obvious.
I recently been looking into joining CAP. My goal and intention is to get some air time and also for that ooey gooey feeling of being able to provide help when needed.
It appears that the organization makes you jump through a bunch of hoops and paperwork without any guarantees of anything. The list of requirements per the squadron page seems endless. I contacted one squadron and asked a straightforward question of how long it would take to be flying. I got a roundabout response and was told to come to a meeting or two. I really want to do this as a selfless thing to help but my time is valuable too. What I’m trying to avoid is signing up only to deal with egos of people who are suit and tie by day and then pretend to be Maverick & Goose by night. I don’t know if this is the norm, but what I've read on the forum so far kinda says that there is a lot of focus on rank and title. I looked into Pilots and Paws as an alternative but not having my own plane pretty much counts me out.
I work a normal job and also actively training for my ratings. I suppose I’m somewhat busy but still would like to help by volunteering my abilities to a good cause. After that long essay, here are my questions.
1. For those of you that have or had direct experience with CAP, how frequently do missions come about?
2. Is there some average time frame that I can expect to be PIC or co-pilot?
3. I have no issue volunteering my time and abiding by any guidelines set forth to reach the goal but you guys/gals who are doing it, are you finding satisfaction with CAP?
Click to expand...

There's a lot of "how long until i get to fly?" in your post. As someone mentioned, they have other duties besides pilot. I'm not in CAP, but everything I've seen and heard suggests that if your main interest is just looking for a way to fly, you're going to be disappointed.

I know a bunch of great people in the local CAP squadrons, and none of them are there for ego stroking. But all of them acknowledge there's a lot of nonsense (for lack of a better word) involved in the organisation.
Still, I would suggest showing up and meeting the people in your area. You may get your answer one way or another. After attending one of their meetings, I concluded that it wasn't for me. Nothing against them, just not a group where I felt I'd fit in.
 
DouglasBader said:
More recently when I began attending some meetings, I was informed that I would require about a year to get through the first Form 5 checkout. That is, a routine checkout in the airplane. They wanted me to do a full observer program (the guy who looks out the window during a search) first, then a training program, a mountain course, and a series of online courses. This, to check out in a Cessna 182. Utterly ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Not only is it utterly ridiculous, it's contrary to regs! There is no requirement to do all that for a Form 5 checkout. In fact, they could get in BIG trouble from their Wing Standards/Eval guys for making such stipulations.

What you described is more related to a Mission Pilot rating. Either the guy at the squadron didn't know what he was talking about, or he confused you by discussing the wrong rating.
 
Palmpilot said:
If you mean additional to existing state budgets, I don't see how paying people to do what is now done by volunteers could turn out to be anything other than more expensive.
Click to expand...

You are missing the budgeted cost of maintaining each local CAP organization in the days/weeks/months between actual missions. That's the bulk of the $23 million.

A private organization will be utilizing their equipment for other revenue operations between the infrequent CAP calls.

Besides, most for-hire piston pilots can tell you that their wages are not much above volunteering, anyway. :D
 
DouglasBader said:
They wanted me to do a full observer program (the guy who looks out the window during a search) first
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The observer is the mission commander. That person decides the status and execution of the air crew's mission. It is certainly not the person who "looks up the window".

To reference what someone else said, it seems like they wanted you to get a Form 91, which is a whole different ballgame. Form 5 means you can fly the airplane, and it is not much different (nor is it harder to get really) than a checkride from a DPE. A Form 91 means you have received specific training on how to fly assigned missions, and I can see that taking some extra time and training, because so much of it has nothing to do with being a pilot.
 
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I thought observer was the right seat - looks, radios, assists and the scanner was the guy in back looking out the window. And the mission pilot is left seat. Haven't been to a SAREX in a while.
 
I looked at joining CAP a few times.

One back when I was building hrs for my CPL, to be frank the CAP is not a very good tool to build hours, you are better off getting into gliders, joining a good flying club, or buying a 120 or something. Also unless you are on a mission (which isnt very often) you are PAYING to fly those planes.

The second time I was going to join, my hours were in the thousands, I was a CFI and I was thinking about moving to a small college town to do some flying, the town had a older ex-navy aviator who ran the local CAP, he REALLY wanted me to join up, probably because I am a younger guy and a CFI. I would have joined in this instance if I would have moved there.

NOW if you want to fly missions and make a real difference, join Angel Flight and try to get a deal on a rental at some local club.
 
raider said:
I thought observer was the right seat - looks, radios, assists and the scanner was the guy in back looking out the window. And the mission pilot is left seat. Haven't been to a SAREX in a while.
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The mission pilot flies the plane. The observer (yah the dude in the right seat) executes the mission. The scanner largely looks out the window unless on a photo mission...
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
So... laying it out there:

  1. What is CAP's self-defined purpose today? (post demise of 121.5 ELT monitoring)
  2. What is CAP's actual addition of value to the local and/or national community?
Click to expand...

CAP is an example of a govt created organization that refused to die when it became no longer relevant, should have sunk with the last uboat. They do some good, but they reshaped themselves post wwii to stay in existence and are planning on reshaping themselves to survive post 121.5 searches.
 
ClimbnSink said:
CAP is an example of a govt created organization that refused to die when it became no longer relevant, should have sunk with the last uboat. They do some good, but they reshaped themselves post wwii to stay in existence and are planning on reshaping themselves to survive post 121.5 searches.
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You're so right about that. There's no way anyone in government should be allowed to realize that the mission is changing and that they need to adapt to the new realities. It's much better that they should quietly go away so we can set up a whole new organization to take care of the new needs. That way we can make sure that all the procedures, policies, and training are pertinent to exactly what we're trying to accomplish NOW, not five or ten years ago.

:mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
gprellwitz said:
You're so right about that. There's no way anyone in government should be allowed to realize that the mission is changing and that they need to adapt to the new realities. It's much better that they should quietly go away so we can set up a whole new organization to take care of the new needs. That way we can make sure that all the procedures, policies, and training are pertinent to exactly what we're trying to accomplish NOW, not five or ten years ago.

:mad2::mad2::mad2:
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Govt evolving to stay on the cutting edge. Umm sure that happens. Not.
 
Carefully saying this is not necessarily Doug's situation first...

I've seen folks given the "oh it'll take a while" song and dance when they're not clicking with people and aren't trusted to be a member of a team effort.

Not saying it's right, not saying it's even 100% healthy, but there is a certain amount of "do I really trust this person, not only to fly the airplane, but also to get along with anyone on board and accomplish whatever task was assigned?". Nobody wants their volunteer time wasted. They definitely don't want a bad review in an Eval because they judged badly who they hitched to their wagon.

It's one of the differences between real military stuff (nobody's getting fired, y'all better get bozo up to speed) versus volunteer pseudo-military flying (you're going to get evaluated, so passive-aggressively avoiding the idiots is indirectly rewarded).

It takes a while for people to get to know you. And you them. And yes, there are a couple pilots I would be very leery of getting in their aircraft. Not because they can't fly around in circles at 90 knots safely and bring everyone home, but because I know they'll do or say something so stupid in front of Command or USAF evaluators that it will reflect poorly on the entire crew, Command, and maybe even the Wing during an Eval.

So why waste time even being on their crew?

It only takes one retarded comment stemming from an overall attitude problem, on the ground, during a de-brief, to give your co-volunteers a political black eye.

Anybody can be the bus driver in the left seat. It's in some ways the easiest job.

I've also seen concerned folks in Command struggling over non-pilots who volunteer and then get interested in the other crewmember seats, who can't do simple math. An Observer who can't do time/speed/distance calcs, is going to eventually be a problem. Do you shove the person out of the organization with bad feelings on all sides? Encourage them to become a great ground ops member? Etc. This being after numerous training sessions where they're just not "getting it". Remember, the organization can't legally discriminate, but putting someone in a seat who can't do the job isn't good either. CAP attracts more than just pilots, and needs to... but sometimes that's a liability in flight Ops. Good Commanders un-ruffle a lot of feathers and sometimes have to ruffle them. "You're really not cut out for this job, but we need help here, here, and here..."

Also, pilots show up all the time and think CAP is all about them flying for free. No clue of any of the other volunteer jobs it takes to make their entire mission happen. Nor much interest in helping with those jobs.

If you only show up for flying when your peers are flying, and handling inspections, and working on gear, painting the lines at the hangar, doing all the paperwork, programming radios, etc... You get the idea... You'll end up an "outsider" pretty quick. We have a couple of pilots like that. Privately when we're all doing the other work, we have zero respect for them and it does get talked about.

So I can see where some squadrons may give a feel of "hang out for a while" and then see if folks step up to working for the squadron as a whole, before they get too antsy about sitting in the left seat.
 
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