Not Logging

[AuntPeggy]

OK, how about this logging question.

PIC is SEL, VFR. Right-seat passenger is CFII on a pleasure flight for brunch. Nobody pays anybody anything. Pilot doesn't keep a flight log up to date and doesn't want CFI to sign it, but says to CFI, if you want to log the flight as an instructor, ok. CFI offers advice and instruction during the flight.

Can the CFI log the flight as instruction?

 

[ntbjounin]

if the CFI is actually instructing... sure. but he cant just sit there and not instruct.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

OK, how about this logging question.

PIC is SEL, VFR. Right-seat passenger is CFII on a pleasure flight for brunch. Nobody pays anybody anything. Pilot doesn't keep a flight log up to date and doesn't want CFI to sign it, but says to CFI, if you want to log the flight as an instructor, ok. CFI offers advice and instruction during the flight.

Can the CFI log the flight as instruction?

I may be wrong (probably am), but I think if a CFI puts dual given in his logbook, there needs to be dual received entered in another logbook to match.

 

[poadeleted20]

Greg is correct. If the FAA ever happens to compare the two logs, and sees the entry in the CFI's log without a corresponding entry in the other pilot's log, it's an open-and-shut violation. The only question would be which reg was violated -- whether the entry in the CFI's log was false (a virtually guaranteed revocation of all certificates for violating 61.59), or whether the CFI merely failed to sign the trainee's log (a comparatively lesser violation of 61.189(a), but still serious -- suspension of CFI rather than revocation of everything). Of course, the chance of that comparison happening is slim, but that's the law on the subject.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Keeping a log is voluntary for the trainee.

(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

but required for the trainer?

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
(b) A flight instructor must maintain a record in a logbook or a separate document that contains the following:
(1) The name of each person whose logbook or student pilot certificate that instructor has endorsed for solo flight privileges, and the date of the endorsement; and
(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results.
(c) Each flight instructor must retain the records required by this section for at least 3 years.

What happens when the trainee chooses not to keep a logbook? I would assume that 61.51.h.2 specifies how the logbook should be maintained if the pilot chooses to keep one. By extension, wouldn't 61.189.a also specify how the logbook should be signed if the pilot chooses to keep one?

 

[silver-eagle]

Keeping a log is voluntary for the trainee.

but required for the trainer?

What happens when the trainee chooses not to keep a logbook? I would assume that 61.51.h.2 specifies how the logbook should be maintained if the pilot chooses to keep one. By extension, wouldn't 61.189.a also specify how the logbook should be signed if the pilot chooses to keep one?

How would the trainee show he had the REQUIRED instruction if it were not logged in his logbook? I did, as a student, often find an available CFI for a flight when I was on business travel. The only way it would count to total time is if it were logged and signed off by said instructor.
Same goes for ANY "required" time. You only need to logbook to show your "required" time has been completed.
Where's your FLIGHT REVIEW?

 

[Ken Ibold]

How would the trainee show he had the REQUIRED instruction if it were not logged in his logbook? I did, as a student, often find an available CFI for a flight when I was on business travel. The only way it would count to total time is if it were logged and signed off by said instructor.
Same goes for ANY "required" time. You only need to logbook to show your "required" time has been completed.
Where's your FLIGHT REVIEW?

I think Peggy is referring to flights that, for the trainee, are not required to be logged. One can be a "trainee" under this scenario and not be a student pilot, y'know.

 

[AuntPeggy]

How would the trainee show he had the REQUIRED instruction if it were not logged in his logbook? I did, as a student, often find an available CFI for a flight when I was on business travel. The only way it would count to total time is if it were logged and signed off by said instructor.
Same goes for ANY "required" time. You only need to logbook to show your "required" time has been completed.
Where's your FLIGHT REVIEW?

Agreed. Pilot is really required to log required training such as flight review.
But my question is about non-required training. You know, when you just want to learn something because it's there.

 

[poadeleted20]

"If it isn't written down, it didn't happen." If the trainee has no log to sign (or chooses not to have it entered), as far as the FAA is concerned, no training was given, the trainee can't claim it as training received, and the instructor can't log it as training given.

 

[dsffdssdf]

"If it isn't written down, it didn't happen." If the trainee has no log to sign (or chooses not to have it entered), as far as the FAA is concerned, no training was given, the trainee can't claim it as training received, and the instructor can't log it as training given.

Do you have a reference for that?

You're saying if a prospective student walks into an airport one day to get a demo flight to see if flight training is for them, the CFI can't log that flight because the "student" didn't log it as well? What if the student did log it, but soon after they lost their logbook. Now there is no record of it. Does the CFI have to remove the entry from his logbook?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Do you have a reference for that?

Kind of what I would like to know too.

You're saying if a prospective student walks into an airport one day to get a demo flight to see if flight training is for them, the CFI can't log that flight because the "student" didn't log it as well?

That isn't what I see him saying. What he is saying is that if there wasn't dual received in the student's logbook, dual given can't be logged in the CFI's logbook. The CFI can log it as PIC, but not dual given.

What if the student did log it, but soon after they lost their logbook. Now there is no record of it. Does the CFI have to remove the entry from his logbook?

Let's not get absurd.

 

[poadeleted20]

Section 61.189: Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

[emphasis added]

Basic "if/then" logic: Reg says, "If there was training, there must be a signature." Therefore, if there is no signature, then either there was no training, or the reg was violated. If the CFI's log shows training given, and there is no signature in the trainee's log (assuming it is found, and they can demand the trainee produce it for inspection), which of the two possibilities do you think the FSDO will decide to assume for enforcement purposes?

 

[dsffdssdf]

Section 61.189: Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

[emphasis added]

Basic "if/then" logic: Reg says, "If there was training, there must be a signature." Therefore, if there is no signature, then either there was no training, or the reg was violated. If the CFI's log shows training given, and there is no signature in the trainee's log (assuming it is found, and they can demand the trainee produce it for inspection), which of the two possibilities do you think the FSDO will decide to assume for enforcement purposes?

I think you may be reading into this a little bit too much. If you gave instruction, you log "dual given". It doesn't matter how the student logs it. The student has total control over his logbook. If that were the case, then an ill-thinking student could erase the signature from his or her logbook and get the instructor in trouble.

And secondly, a pilots logbook means diddly squat to the FAA. The FAA can't violate you over just having something in your logbook. The crime is when you try to pass off falsified times on a 8710, or some other "official" FAA document. A lot of people mistakenly assume that a pilot's logbook is a legal document that the FAA can look through at any time and violate you over.

"Hi this is the FAA, let me see your logbook... Oh look this flight you just completed 20 minutes ago was logged incorrectly, you are hereby VIOLATED!!" I don't think so...

 

[poadeleted20]

I think you may be reading into this a little bit too much. If you gave instruction, you log "dual given". It doesn't matter how the student logs it. The student has total control over his logbook. If that were the case, then an ill-thinking student could erase the signature from his or her logbook and get the instructor in trouble.

An erasure would leave evidence of the original signature. In any event, the regulation is binding on the instructor -- if s/he gives instruction, the instructor must sign the trainee's log -- no ifs, ands, or buts.

And secondly, a pilots logbook means diddly squat to the FAA. The FAA can't violate you over just having something in your logbook.

Actually, the FAA can and has violated instructors for what they wrote or didn't write in their trainee's logs -- several times such cases went all the way to the full NTSB, and were sustained.

The crime is when you try to pass off falsified times on a 8710, or some other "official" FAA document.

While that is a violation of 61.59, there are other regs you can violate with false entries without filling in another "official" FAA document, starting with 61.57.

A lot of people mistakenly assume that a pilot's logbook is a legal document that the FAA can look through at any time and violate you over.

It's no mistake. They can, and they have. There's plenty of case law to support that. They even once violated a pilot for a flight made some 10 years back listed with a passenger because there weren't three takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days -- and that was sustained all the way to the NTSB. This logbook inspection came when the pilot presented the log to the FAA to show he had enough aeronautical experience to take the ATP written test (back then, you had to have the flight time to take the written, not just the practical, and you presented your logbook, not an 8710-1, to do that).

"Hi this is the FAA, let me see your logbook... Oh look this flight you just completed 20 minutes ago was logged incorrectly, you are hereby VIOLATED!!" I don't think so...

Think again. Imagine they look at your log on a clear blue day (say, on a ramp check, when they see your log in plain sight in the airplane), and you have logged an instrument approach to that airport without a safety pilot aboard. You won't like what happens next.

BTW, the FAA can demand to see your logbook anytime they feel like it, without cause or reason, and the only thing you have is a "reasonable" amount of time to go get it and show up at the FSDO. 14 CFR 61.51(i). If they find any violations of the regs during such review, you're on the hook, and they can use your logbook as documentary evidence in the proceeding.

BTW, for a case directly on the original point, see Administrator v. Luyten. Mr. Luyten lost his CFI ticket for 60 days for failing to sign a trainee's log.

 

[TMetzinger]

Don't bother feeding the troll, Ron. Anyone who is that much a whacko and has to post anonymously...

Here's a related question - how many of you find that your CFI's are logging the ground instruction they give you? They are required to, and I've gotten in the habit of putting it my electronic logbook, but my paper log didn't have a column for ground when I got it, and still doesn't. I make them put in the .3 gnd in their narrative, or I refuse to pay for it.

We really need a good electronic system - if they can do this with health records (and my doctor's office is fabulous, they don't have a paper chart at all) we ought to be able to do it with flight and maintenance logs (and I know that some operators have fully electronic maintenance logs). I'd love as a CFI to be able to punch in the times, type up a narrative, put my thumbprint or other validation down on the PC, and poof! My log and my student's log are updated and electronically signed.

 

[KennyFlys]

I sign the books. In the back, there is usually a place to list ground instruction and the time. If not, I'll place it in the notes section or inside cover if necessary. Last option, put it on a line in the main part of the log just so it's there.

 

[poadeleted20]

I sign the books. In the back, there is usually a place to list ground instruction and the time. If not, I'll place it in the notes section or inside cover if necessary. Last option, put it on a line in the main part of the log just so it's there.

Good for you, Kenny -- this is a current hot button item with the FAA, and is being checked carefully by DPE's on practical tests. Woe be to the CFI who sends an applicant to an examiner without documentation of the required ground training.

 

[dsffdssdf]

An erasure would leave evidence of the original signature. In any event, the regulation is binding on the instructor -- if s/he gives instruction, the instructor must sign the trainee's log -- no ifs, ands, or buts.

What if the page was ripped out? Or it was erased well enough for there to be no evidence that something was there. If I understand you correctly, you're saying in order for an instructor to legally log dual given, there needs to be proof in the student's logbook that the training did indeed take place. In the absence of the proof in the student's logbook, the instructor is in violation. If thats the case, then there are a lot of instructors out there who are in violation because if some student they flew with years ago has lost their logbook. It sounds ludicrous, but thats what you're saying.

Actually, the FAA can and has violated instructors for what they wrote or didn't write in their trainee's logs -- several times such cases went all the way to the full NTSB, and were sustained.

Define "trainee"? Someone training for a FAA rating needs to show the logbook endorsements to the DPE in order to take their checkride. "Trainees" that do not need the training for a checkride do not need the training for anything, so they don't keep a logbook.

It's no mistake. They can, and they have. There's plenty of case law to support that. They even once violated a pilot for a flight made some 10 years back listed with a passenger because there weren't three takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days -- and that was sustained all the way to the NTSB. This logbook inspection came when the pilot presented the log to the FAA to show he had enough aeronautical experience to take the ATP written test (back then, you had to have the flight time to take the written, not just the practical, and you presented your logbook, not an 8710-1, to do that).

Think again. Imagine they look at your log on a clear blue day (say, on a ramp check, when they see your log in plain sight in the airplane), and you have logged an instrument approach to that airport without a safety pilot aboard. You won't like what happens next.

I'd tell them the approaches are in my other logbook. Or my logbook hasn't been updated to reflect my instrument currency because I've been really busy lately. Theres no regulation that says you have to have your logbook always 100% up to date.

Imagine an IRC employee walking into your house and seeing a note taped on your wall that read "I did not pay my taxes last year". The IRS person can't put you in cuffs or anything like that solely based on that note, because it's not anything official. That IRS agent may chose to do a formal investigation based on seeing that note, just like the FAA employee may choose to pursue an investigation based on him seeing your logbook. The worst case scenario is the FAA employee asks you to produce evidence of your instrument currency and present it to a FSDO within a certain amount of time. But they are most definitely NOT going to violate you based on seeing a book in your possession that appeared to be a logbook which happened to show you weren't current

BTW, the FAA can demand to see your logbook anytime they feel like it, without cause or reason, and the only thing you have is a "reasonable" amount of time to go get it and show up at the FSDO. 14 CFR 61.51(i). If they find any violations of the regs during such review, you're on the hook, and they can use your logbook as documentary evidence in the proceeding.

Yes, and when you willingly submit that logbook to the FAA as "this is my logbook and I certify that it is all correct", it becomes a legal document. But anyways, they would never ask you to give them your WHOLE logbook. They would ask to provide evidence that you are landings current, IFR curent, BFR current, or any other kind of currency that is relevent.

BTW, for a case directly on the original point, see Administrator v. Luyten. Mr. Luyten lost his CFI ticket for 60 days for failing to sign a trainee's log.

It never says in the document if that student was still going for FAA ratings, or if they were doing training "just because" as in the OP.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Let's not get so heated here that the thread is put into the Spin Zone or locked. Please. I'm not trolling. This was a legitimate question for me.

I think the case cited was about a CFI who refused to sign off a student for required training and the student was forced to repeat the training because the logbook was not signed. And since invoices are mentioned, the flight was invoiced. Without additional information, one is left to wonder whether the refusal to sign had something to do with the invoices - were they unpaid?

But, to get back to my hypothetical, there are a number of reasons for the trainee to not log his/her time.

1) On a Discovery flight, the trainee doesn't own a logbook.
2) Trainee forgot to bring the logbook.
3) Trainee didn't know to bring logbook. (ex. ground training)
4) Trainee doesn't want to log the flight/training.

None of these are a refusal by the instructor to sign the logbook.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not trolling. This was a legitimate question for me.

I know that -- Tim was referring to post #13.

But, to get back to my hypothetical, there are a number of reasons for the trainee to not log his/her time.

1) On a Discovery flight, the trainee doesn't own a logbook.
2) Trainee forgot to bring the logbook.
3) Trainee didn't know to bring logbook. (ex. ground training)
4) Trainee doesn't want to log the flight/training.

None of these are a refusal by the instructor to sign the logbook.

The reason doesn't matter. The regulation makes it the instructor's responsibility to sign the trainee's log if instruction was given. If the instructor doesn't do that, then the "instruction given" entry in the instructor's own log without a corresponding signature in the trainee's log is prima facie evidence of a violation of 61.189(a). The burden of proof then shifts to the instructor to come up with a valid excuse for having violated that reg.

What's a valid excuse? Dunno -- I haven't seen a case in which the FAA or NTSB has accepted one, but as for 2) and 3) above, that's a situation that can be corrected the next time the trainee and instructor get together. For 1), it's essential that it be documented as training, because otherwise it becomes a sightseeing flight which, under 14 CFR 91.147, requires a special paperwork, FSDO approval, and a drug-screening program for the pilot -- that's why most all Discovery Flights include a logbook. As for 4), I'll go back to my original thesis -- in the eyes of the FAA, if training isn't logged, training didn't happen, and the instructor can't log it as such.

 

[poadeleted20]

What if the page was ripped out?

I really don't have time to dispell all the misconceptions in your post. Suffice it to say that if you were across the table from the Regional Counsel over these issues, the RC would almost certainly leave the meeting with your pilot and/or flight instructor certificates. If you wish to operate under these misconceptions, that's fine, but I certainly hope that those reading this thread will not take any of your advice if they value their flying privileges.

BTW, there really is a regulation saying it must be logged before you count it for currency -- read 14 CFR 61.57 more carefully. Also, they can demand to see your whole logbook -- see 61.51(i).

 

[dmccormack]

1) On a Discovery flight, the trainee doesn't own a logbook.
2) Trainee forgot to bring the logbook.
3) Trainee didn't know to bring logbook. (ex. ground training)
4) Trainee doesn't want to log the flight/training.

None of these are a refusal by the instructor to sign the logbook.

In all these cases I provide a printout of a spreadsheet that s/he can use until logbook is purchased/found/replaced. The logging does not have to be in a Jepp or ASA or Gleim Log Book. I can hand a scrap of paper to them if need be. I log everything AND I keep a notebook with freeform text describing who, what, when, where, what happened, training, evaluations -- etc.

If something happened down the line I would have paperwork backing up my claims. If accident pilot says "He never signed my logbook," It will be my copious records against his. Guess who will win?

 

[dsffdssdf]

I really don't have time to dispell all the misconceptions in your post. Suffice it to say that if you were across the table from the Regional Counsel over these issues, the RC would almost certainly leave the meeting with your pilot and/or flight instructor certificates. If you wish to operate under these misconceptions, that's fine, but I certainly hope that those reading this thread will not take any of your advice if they value their flying privileges.

Show me where in the regs it defines logging "dual received" as REQUIRING a dual given counterpart in a student's logbook. There is no such regulation. Heck, show me even an article written by someone that defines "dual given" in that sense. This whole "if there is no dual received log,, then the instruction never happened" concept is an invention of your own. Its not based on any real regulations or administrator actions.

 

[poadeleted20]

Show me where in the regs it defines logging "dual received" as REQUIRING a dual given counterpart in a student's logbook.

First, there's no such thing in the regs as "dual" -- that term was replaced a long time ago with "training given/received." Second, the regulation requiring the instructor to sign the logbook of anyone to whom that instructor gives training is 14 CFR 61.189(a), which says, "A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training." Is any part of that unclear to you?

 

[dsffdssdf]

First, there's no such thing in the regs as "dual" -- that term was replaced a long time ago with "training given/received." Second, the regulation requiring the instructor to sign the logbook of anyone to whom that instructor gives training is 14 CFR 61.189(a), which says, "A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training." Is any part of that unclear to you?

Your entire thesis seems to be that no matter what, the student HAS to log the flight in order for the instructor to log it (as dual received, or "instruction received", or whatever). Yes, it says the instructor must sign the logbook for it to count towards a certificate or rating, nobody is arguing against that. What we're arguing about is whether the signature is required if the instruction is NOT required for a certificate or rating, and if it is, if the instructor is specifically excluded from logging the time as dual given. I have never heard of such a provision, nor has anyone else, from what it seems.

 

[TMetzinger]

If the instructor provides instruction, he must sign the student logbook. The end. That's what 14 CFR 61.189(a) says.

Now, if neither the instructor or the student log the flight, the instructor is still in violation technically, but there's no record to hang him with.

If they fly together but NO training takes place, then they may (depending on circumstance) both log the flight.

I've flown with my CFI where I acted as safety pilot for her. No instruction took place, we both logged the flight, her as PIC, me as SIC.

The key phrase is "training given". If a CFI is in the airplane, he is either giving training, in which case he needs to sign the student logbook, or he's just another pilot.

Maybe this will make it clearer - if the CFI is using his CFI certificate, then he's giving training (which he's required to document appropriately). Otherwise he's just using his pilot certificate, and is governed by the same regs as any other pilot. Or he's a passenger.

 

[dsffdssdf]

Maybe this will make it clearer - if the CFI is using his CFI certificate, then he's giving training (which he's required to document appropriately). Otherwise he's just using his pilot certificate, and is governed by the same regs as any other pilot. Or he's a passenger.

What about this situation: The "student" is a 75 year old retired ATP with 20,000+ hours before he stopped bother logging anything more than the bare minimum for currency. The instructor is an aerobatic pilot with a current CFI who is teaching this old guy how to fly aerobatics. The CFI is indeed giving instruction, but he is not necessarily using the privileges of his CFI certificate, since the instruction time will not be used for anything other than "educational entertainment", if you will. I don't believe you even need a CFI certificate to teach aerobatics.

This example is almost exactly like the example in the OP. What can the instructor do here? Does he log the time as "Dual Given"?

It all boins down to what "dual given" actually means. Does it mean "time when you are giving instruction as granted by your CFI certificate", or "time in which you are giving instruction"? I don't think the regs define it either way, so I guess it's up to the individual.

 

[TMetzinger]

Since if the "student" in your case has any problem later, he's GONNA claim the instructor "taught" him, a prudent instructor will follow the damn regulation and LOG (in his AND his student's log) the training given, what was covered, and what wasn't. Whether the "training" is for a rating, endorsement, insurance, or none of the above doesn't make a damn bit of difference. If an instructor is teaching someone, and if said instructor is not an idiot, he will document that teaching properly.

It's always up to the individual to decide if they want to follow the regs, but the regs ARE clear.

You don't NEED a CFI certificate to teach any part of flight, any more than you NEED a pilot certificate to fly a plane... if you want to operate completely outside the system. I imagine there are places in the hinterlands (I know this happens in alaska) where an unlicensed pilot taught his kid or neighbor to fly.

Geez, now I'm feeding the troll... I think I'll take my own advice.

 

[poadeleted20]

Your entire thesis seems to be that no matter what, the student HAS to log the flight in order for the instructor to log it (as dual received, or "instruction received", or whatever). Yes, it says the instructor must sign the logbook for it to count towards a certificate or rating, nobody is arguing against that.

You must be reading a different version of Chapter 14 of the Combined Federal Regulations than me, because the 14 CFR 61.189(a) posted on the official US Government web site and published in my FAR/AIM doesn't say that. It says what I posted above, which says nothing about the signature being required only if it is to count for a certificate or rating.

What we're arguing about is whether the signature is required if the instruction is NOT required for a certificate or rating,

Nothing to argue -- the plain wording is clear. If the instructor gives training, the instructor must sign the trainee's log.

and if it is, if the instructor is specifically excluded from logging the time as dual given. I have never heard of such a provision, nor has anyone else, from what it seems.

You're on your own on this one. Good luck with the FAA when you take your CFI practical test.

 

[poadeleted20]

What about this situation: The "student" is a 75 year old retired ATP with 20,000+ hours before he stopped bother logging anything more than the bare minimum for currency. The instructor is an aerobatic pilot with a current CFI who is teaching this old guy how to fly aerobatics. The CFI is indeed giving instruction, but he is not necessarily using the privileges of his CFI certificate, since the instruction time will not be used for anything other than "educational entertainment", if you will. I don't believe you even need a CFI certificate to teach aerobatics.

This example is almost exactly like the example in the OP. What can the instructor do here? Does he log the time as "Dual Given"?

He can, but that term has no legal meaning.

It all boins down to what "dual given" actually means. Does it mean "time when you are giving instruction as granted by your CFI certificate",

It means whatever you want it to mean, because the FAA doesn't use or define it.

or "time in which you are giving instruction"? I don't think the regs define it either way, so I guess it's up to the individual.

You're right -- they don't. There is no such term in the FAA regs as "dual given."

However, 61.51(h) says:

(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

...and 61.1 says:

(16) Training time means training received—
(i) In flight from an authorized instructor;
(ii) On the ground from an authorized instructor; or
(iii) In a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.

...and 61.189(a) is already quoted above.

 

[dsffdssdf]

Geez, now I'm feeding the troll... I think I'll take my own advice.

Lets say I'm up with my wife (who is a non-pilot) and I decide to teach her how VOR's work. If I don't have a CFI, I'm committing an illegal act? The CFI certificate does not give you the ability to instruct it gives you the ability to give official, sanctioned by the FAA instruction, for the lack of a better term. It doesn't saw anywhere that teaching something in an airplane is not allowed unless you hold a CFI. You just can't try to pass it off as "proper" dual to satisfy a part 61 requirement. Thats why whenever the regs talk about instruction, they don't say "instructor", they say "authorized instructor".

Do you understand what I mean by "official instruction" as opposed to "unofficial instruction"?

Lets say a student comes up to me and tells me he just bought a brand new Baron. He knows I have a lot of baron time, so he asks me if I want to fly with him and show him some things about his plane. If I were not a CFI, I could come along without any problems and show him whatever I know. He can't log it as dual recieved (since it's not with a certified instructor), and I didn't log it as dual given. What if I held a CFI certiicate with no MEI? Am I not not allowed to fly? What I would so in this situation is tell the pilot that I will fly with him and show him some tricks, but he must understand that I am not flying with as a CFI because I'm not authorized to give official instruction in a twin, so I can't sign his logbook. I can give him regular non-offical instruction, but it won't count towards instrance requirements, nor should it be be listed in a 8710.

Now the question is should I log that "unofficial instruction" in the Baron as dual given in my logbook. It definatlely can't be logged as PIC, but what about "dual given"?. It all depends on what the definition of "dual given" is. Is it defined as time you're acting as a certified instructor? Is it defined as any time you're just plain giving instruction?

 

[dsffdssdf]

He can, but that term has no legal meaning.
It means whatever you want it to mean, because the FAA doesn't use or define it.
You're right -- they don't. There is no such term in the FAA regs as "dual given."

If there is no legal definition of "dual given", then where are you getting this provision thats says you have to sign the student's logbook in order to log dual given?

 

[TMetzinger]

Well this thread has had one good outcome - I'm changing the columns in my electronic logbook - my Jepp Logbook (from 1998) has "Dual Received" as one column. To me that is "Flight Training Received", but I'm going to make my electronic log say "Flight Training Received" and "Ground Training Received" and add "Flight Training Given" and "Ground Training Given".

Hey, for you folks teaching formal classes - how do you log it? Do you issue a certificate of completion at the end stating that so-and-so has completed XX hours of ground school on the following subjects? And do you just log the class roster?

Or do you log each class session?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

If there is no legal definition of "dual given", then where are you getting this provision thats says you have to sign the student's logbook in order to log dual given?

Want to point out the post where he said that?

 

[dsffdssdf]

Want to point out the post where he said that?

"Greg is correct. If the FAA ever happens to compare the two logs, and sees the entry in the CFI's log without a corresponding entry in the other pilot's log, it's an open-and-shut violation."

 

[Troska]

Serious Question: If I'm traveling, and don't have my logbook with me and receive instruction for whatever from a CFI - what options are there? Can the CFI log it on a blank sticky form to put in my logbook? Does that make _them_ legal if the intent is for the form to go in my logbook?

Tim

 

[Greg Bockelman]

"Greg is correct. If the FAA ever happens to compare the two logs, and sees the entry in the CFI's log without a corresponding entry in the other pilot's log, it's an open-and-shut violation."

Well, I suppose I need to alter my post to "training given" as opposed to "dual given". You are starting to split symantical hairs here. "Dual Given" has been changed to "Training given" some time ago evidently. So I hearby change my post to read "Training Given".

Ron never said that. I did and he was agreeing with me. So the mistake in terminology was mine.

 

[TMetzinger]

Serious Question: If I'm traveling, and don't have my logbook with me and receive instruction for whatever from a CFI - what options are there? Can the CFI log it on a blank sticky form to put in my logbook? Does that make _them_ legal if the intent is for the form to go in my logbook?

Tim

Absolutely. For WINGS and Endorsements I've done them up in advance, just so the entry will be correct. Instructor signs them, I paste them in my log when I get home, or right there! I've also got a piece of scrap paper pasted in the back of the log, with a line that refers to it, from a training flight where I forgot the logbook. As long as they've signed it, they're good.

Pilot logs are like maintenance logs - they must be in a format "acceptable to the administrator", but that format is NOT specified. Minimum data is specified, but that's it. I've seen logs done in spiral notebooks.

 

[dsffdssdf]

Ron never said that. I did and he was agreeing with me. So the mistake in terminology was mine.

"Dual given", "training received", tom-aye-to, tom-ah-to. Whatever you call it, the FAA never says the student has to log it in order for the instructor to log it.

Absolutely. For WINGS and Endorsements I've done them up in advance, just so the entry will be correct. Instructor signs them, I paste them in my log when I get home, or right there! I've also got a piece of scrap paper pasted in the back of the log, with a line that refers to it, from a training flight where I forgot the logbook. As long as they've signed it, they're good.

Pilot logs are like maintenance logs - they must be in a format "acceptable to the administrator", but that format is NOT specified. Minimum data is specified, but that's it. I've seen logs done in spiral notebooks.

What Ron is saying is that if, for some reason, that sticker you gave doesn't make its way into the student's logbook, the instructor would be violated. That is what I disagree with. And no I am not trolling. I just hate it when people make up their own rules. Aviation has too many rules enough as it is.

 

[silver-eagle]

I think that Ron is saying, and the regs bear him out, that IF the instructor gives instruction, and he logs same, then there should be an equivelant record in the SAID student logbook. Should said student logbook not exist, it appears the FAA will disqualify the time. That does not mean the instructor does not log it, it just means he can't use the time for additional ratings or for existing qualifications.
Isn't that kind of like "If a tree falls in the forest, does anyone hear it."
There is nothing wrong with the instructor, then the student, signing a piece of paper to be added to the logbook should that not be available.
I can see why instructors WANT every hour they instruct logged somewhere. This is a cross check. I can write all kinds of stuff in my log. Just how do you think ANYONE can prove it happened? How about crosschecking my log with... The airplane, the instructor, the FBO, fuel purchases. Does anyone of us really think if needed, it wouldn't come down to a detailed examination of OUR LOG, ANY INSTRUCTORS LOG NOTED ABOVE, AIRCRAFT LOGS, and FBO RECEIPTS?
So the original question is if I, the stu, don't keep a log, can the instructor count it? The answer is SURE. Write whatever you want to in your OFFICIAL record. It doesn't mean it will survive scrutiny.