Nose wheel hold off time

skidoo

skidoo

Line Up and Wait
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skidoo
The other day, my wife got in a video of a couple landings. I was hoping for more and better camera stability so I could review and critique later. About the only thing I could get out of the video was that the nose wheel was just a tad higher than the mains at touch down. I could hear the mains squeak and then the third squeak about 1/2 second after the mains. The landings looked fine, but I am thinking I should hold the nose a bit higher and longer. So, I am wondering about everyone else's landings.

From your experience, can you estimate about how long after your mains touch does your nose wheel touch?
 
I guess I've never timed it, but it's a lot longer than 1/2 sec. Are you holding the nose up until it just won't stay up any more? Sounds like you aren't...


Trapper John
 
skidoo said:
The other day, my wife got in a video of a couple landings. I was hoping for more and better camera stability so I could review and critique later. About the only thing I could get out of the video was that the nose wheel was just a tad higher than the mains at touch down. I could hear the mains squeak and then the third squeak about 1/2 second after the mains. The landings looked fine, but I am thinking I should hold the nose a bit higher and longer. So, I am wondering about everyone else's landings.

From your experience, can you estimate about how long after your mains touch does your nose wheel touch?
Click to expand...

What type of airplane? Landing attitude seems to depend on airplane type. Most of my time is in Cessna aircraft, which I tend to hold pretty nose-high, and I can hold the nose off until the tail stops flying. When I was evaluating possible planes to move to from my Cardinal RG (ended up in a 210), I took some training in a Cirrus SR-22. The instructor had me basically drive the Cirrus onto the ground (like I have in my instructor's C-90 and Cheyenne) to avoid a tail strike.

Wells
 
Doesn't sound to me like there's a problem with how you're flying it now. Mains first, nose second. Half a second seems fine.
 
When we developed a bit of a shimmy in the nosewheel and took it in to the mechanic to fix, he told me the next time it would cost a lot more. So, I started babying the nosewheel on landing. After the mains touch, pull back on the yoke to keep the nose up as long as possible. I always thought I do this already, but in retrospect, I wasn't nearly so engaged before. Anyway, it has turned most of my landings really smoooooth. I'd say 4, 5, or 6 seconds at least. Sometimes I cannot even tell when the nose is down.

So, pretend that the nosewheel will shake violently as soon as it touches and every shake is dollars out of your pocket.:lol:
 
It depends on you approach speed, of course.
If you are really really slow, the mains will touch and you will NOT be able to hold the nose off as in thud-thud think.

If you are are fast, it will go thud-thud clomp, thud-thud BANG, thud-thud CRUNCH and all noise stops in about 3 seconds.
 
If I really work at it... I can hold the nosewheel off for several seconds/several hundred feet. This is on a Piper Cherokee 180.


skidoo said:
From your experience, can you estimate about how long after your mains touch does your nose wheel touch?
Click to expand...
 
nyoung said:
If I really work at it... I can hold the nosewheel off for several seconds/several hundred feet. This is on a Piper Cherokee 180.
Click to expand...

I can hold the tail wheel off until the ride has come to a full and complete stop.
 
It depends on the yoke or stick arrangment, but a good test is: Is the stick all the way back? Does it stay there once you contact the runway?

This works in taildraggers and nosewheel airplanes.

If you're not sure, get some tailwheel instruction. You'll learn very quickly if you're releasing pressure once you touch down (a very common action among pilots of all levels of experience).
 
If you're flying a Grumman, you want that nose wheel up until the plane is too slow to hold it up.

As for Cirrus, you can safely hold the nosewheel off as long as you're precise enough not to bang the tail on the ground.

In either case, aiming for a landing not on the mains alone is an invitation to a nosewheel-first landing, which isn't good in any tricycle gear airplane.
 
AuntPeggy said:
When we developed a bit of a shimmy in the nosewheel and took it in to the mechanic to fix, he told me the next time it would cost a lot more. So, I started babying the nosewheel on landing. After the mains touch, pull back on the yoke to keep the nose up as long as possible. I always thought I do this already, but in retrospect, I wasn't nearly so engaged before. Anyway, it has turned most of my landings really smoooooth. I'd say 4, 5, or 6 seconds at least. Sometimes I cannot even tell when the nose is down.

So, pretend that the nosewheel will shake violently as soon as it touches and every shake is dollars out of your pocket.:lol:
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The mechanic is right. The nosewheel seldom gets any dynamic balancing (like we have done on our cars) and will want to start a shimmy. Shimmy loosens all the mechanisms on the nosegear and allows more shimmy. As it gets worse it destroys instruments and radios, and we've found loose rivets and other hardware in the neighborhood of the nosegear. Setting the nose wheel down too soon will aggravate the whole thing.

I modified an old automobile wheel balancer to dynamically balance the nosewheel, and we seldom have any problems. There's an old Cessna SB on the subject and Goodyear sells stick-on aviation wheel weights for the purpose. Don't use them on a nosewheel that retracts up under the engine; the heat will soften the sticky bit and it'll fall off.

And holding the elevator full up during heavy braking puts more weight on the mains and reduces the chance of a skid. Basically, the airplane needs to be flown until it comes to a stop.

Dan
 
If you managed to stop in a reasonable distance with good control, you landed correctly, IMHO. How long you hold back pressure should not be a constant; it will vary. You can be slow enough at touchdown to not bounce, but fast enough that you can hold the nose up with elevator for quite a distance. This is an indication that you probably touched down a little too fast.

It's quite possible you just made some really nice landings, where the speed was such that the nosewheel just wouldn't stay up.

The only thing that must be done with "nosedraggers" on every landing, regardless of runway length, etc., is to put the mains on first, with the nosewheel up long enough to allow the plane to start centering itself. How long you hold the nose off depends on how soon you need to stop, or how much time you need to to be comfy putting the nose down (you should be centered, as well as slow enough).

As for "aerobraking" by holding the nosewheel off until the elevator runs out of authority, it's usually not necessary if you landed at or below the appropriate speed, with ample runway ahead. And if you wait until you have no elevator authority, when the nose comes down it may comes down faster and harder than you would like! True, it's better to load the nosewheel vertically than horizontally, but there are acceptable limits to both.

I usually just "play it by ear" landing trikes- if I did everything right (airspeed, vertical speed,crosswind correction), I can just gently release back pressure after the mains are planted, without rolling farther than I want to. That's how I prefer to do it, in the trikes I have flown (which are not slippery "runway hogs" that need help slowing down due to higher touchdown speeds).

The only times I've ever really needed to "hold it off", with rented Cessnas, anyway, was if I landed long and wanted to spare the brakes, or had a plane that tended to shimmy unless the plane was almost at taxi speed. :D

And there's something to be said, in a good crosswind, for just getting it straight while you have good aileron/rudder authority, then (gently) getting that nosewheel on to help steer as the plane slows even more.... don't want to be rolling on just the mains with no rudder authority in a stiff or gusty crosswind.
 
This is in a 2004 182. On my first landings before the video day, it touched down fine, no bounce, not hard, but it seemed like the nose never lowered when I released yoke pressure. It seemed as if it landed on three wheels at once. I asked my instructor at the time, and he said the mains touched first.

Anyway, I have been trying to hold it back a bit further, and on this video day, I would estimate from the video, the nose wheel was less than about 6" higher than the mains. It sure appears higher from the cockpit attitude view.

I learned in the 70's and didn't fly again until last October. My first time out was in a 70's 172 model. I was surprised by its nose shimmy, because I never experience it when training back then. I'm glad the 182 doesn't do that, its nice and smooth.

I'm going out to try some more this afternoon!
 
For Grummans, nosewheel shimmy on takeoff or touchdown below the critical speed (which is pretty fast) is usually due to inadequate torquing of either the nose fork nut or the wheel axle nuts, although worn wheel bearings may also be a cause.
 
skidoo said:
This is in a 2004 182. On my first landings before the video day, it touched down fine, no bounce, not hard, but it seemed like the nose never lowered when I released yoke pressure. It seemed as if it landed on three wheels at once. I asked my instructor at the time, and he said the mains touched first.

Anyway, I have been trying to hold it back a bit further, and on this video day, I would estimate from the video, the nose wheel was less than about 6" higher than the mains. It sure appears higher from the cockpit attitude view.

I learned in the 70's and didn't fly again until last October. My first time out was in a 70's 172 model. I was surprised by its nose shimmy, because I never experience it when training back then. I'm glad the 182 doesn't do that, its nice and smooth.

I'm going out to try some more this afternoon!
Click to expand...

Are you sure the nosegear piston compressed?

I've been in a few Cessna airplanes where the nosegear stayed lowered, and it took a quick application of brake to get it past stuck and back down to normal.

Six inches is mighty close to landing flat, IMHO...
 
skidoo said:
From your experience, can you estimate about how long after your mains touch does your nose wheel touch?
Click to expand...

In my limited experience, I hold the nose off as long as physically possible (something my CFI drills in to me) but I've never timed it. I'm probably off on my estimate but I'm guessing a few seconds if I do the landing well.

Edit: This is in a Diamond DA-20.
 
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skidoo said:
From your experience, can you estimate about how long after your mains touch does your nose wheel touch?
Click to expand...
Depends on what you're flying and where the cg is. I've held AA-5A/B's off for well more than five seconds (maybe near 10), but in a 172 with just two up front, usually only a second or two. OTOH, when I screw up the landing, the nosewheel may bang down almost immediately. :redface:
 
nyoung said:
If I really work at it... I can hold the nosewheel off for several seconds/several hundred feet. This is on a Piper Cherokee 180.
Click to expand...

What do you keep your pressures at for all three of your struts? Right now we're fighting getting the struts back where they need to be on a Cherokee 180.
 
If you work the throttle just right, you can keep the nosewheel off the ground and use differential braking to make the turnoff.
I'd pay to see someone do that, as long as I was a ways away and they weren't using my plane.
 
The CG is toward the forward limits. The nose strut piston is only about 2-3" when on the ground. It doesn't look that much more in the air. There is more room to pull back the yoke. So, I guess a bit more pressure at touchdown and we will see. Well, I'm off to try some more! Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to shoot video today.
 
skidoo said:
The CG is toward the forward limits. The nose strut piston is only about 2-3" when on the ground. It doesn't look that much more in the air. There is more room to pull back the yoke. So, I guess a bit more pressure at touchdown and we will see. Well, I'm off to try some more! Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to shoot video today.
Click to expand...

2-3" exposed on the ground in a C182?

That seems low -- a check of the POH should provide recommendations.
 
i usually check for 3-4 finger widths of strut inflation on a cessna, which would be around 2-3 inches i suppose
 
There are three factors really....

1.) Pulling the yoke back. If you aren't pulling it back to the stops then pulling it back more way hold the nosewheel up longer.

One thing I'm sure a lot of instructors have observed is often a pilot will THINK they're pulling the yoke all the way back but yet as the observer you can grab it and pull it back quite a bit more.

2.)Airspeed. If you come in really slow without much energy you likely won't be able to hold the nosewheel up for very long at all once the mains touch. If you touch down a little faster you'll be able to hold the nosewheel up.

3.)CG

If you're coming in without much energy, the CG is within limits, you aren't hitting the ground hard, the mains touch first, the nosewheel sets down gently, and the yoke is at the stops when the nosewheel touches down..there is nothing to worry about. Being able to hold the nosewheel up for an extended period of time, in some situations, may indicate a too-fast landing.
 
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You can never go wrong with a soft-field landing, touching down at min. speed, with the yoke/stick fully aft. I believe that in general, landings should be done with minimum speed/energy. Landing faster in a flat attitude it not great technique, but you can get away with it on pavement. I think it's a bad landing habit, though. Certain tricycle gear designs can be risky landing on soft/uneven grass in this manner. It can increase your chances of flipping the airplane. How long the nosewheel actually stays up is not necessarily relevant, and will be different in different airplanes and even the same airplane loaded differently.
 
whifferdill said:
You can never go wrong with a soft-field landing, touching down at min. speed, with the yoke/stick fully aft. I believe that in general, landings should be done with minimum speed/energy. Landing faster in a flat attitude it not great technique, but you can get away with it on pavement. I think it's a bad landing habit, though. Certain tricycle gear designs can be risky landing on soft/uneven grass in this manner. It can increase your chances of flipping the airplane. How long the nosewheel actually stays up is not necessarily relevant, and will be different in different airplanes and even the same airplane loaded differently.
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I used to cure my students of landing flat using two methods: Parking at the approach end of the runway while the students watched others land...pretty soon it becomes clear which will float forever and which will land on the numbers. It is also an opportunity to see how much lower that the mains the nosewheel hangs, indicating that a flat landing will almost certainly be nosewheel first.

Second method was to go over to Lake Union and watch the float planes land. Gotta land nose up or you are going ass over teakettle.

Bob Gardner
 
I like to hear the stall horn just starting to belch as the mains touch under normal conditions...thats when I tell students "that was a ten" assuming everything else went right... Doesnt matter C150 or Sr22 (OK maybe w 1/2 flaps on Sr22)..This will almost force you to have the yoke or stick in the very close to the max aft position or to the stops at touchdown..making i much easier to let the nose wheel rub on by itself.... Let the nose wheel land itself or fly it on depending on ac type. I give bonus points for "wheelies" I guess
 
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Ron Levy said:
If you're flying a Grumman, you want that nose wheel up until the plane is too slow to hold it up.

As for Cirrus, you can safely hold the nosewheel off as long as you're precise enough not to bang the tail on the ground.

In either case, aiming for a landing not on the mains alone is an invitation to a nosewheel-first landing, which isn't good in any tricycle gear airplane.
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I never realized the Cirri had tail strike issues..

I know a few CAP pilots around here that always 3 point the CAP 182.
Scary
 
Well, I did more landings today. It was more difficult today to get set up at the right speeds on final. Winds were strange. The sock was almost flat, but at fuel up I noticed a swirling dust devil, the clouds over the mountains looked turbulent, but the smoke from local fires looked straight, yet birds were bouncing around in the 500 to 700 AGL level, airspeed indicator was bouncing around a lot too, and I noticed a plastic bag swirling at about 500 feet AGL. So, I ended up coming in a bit higher and faster. In the end, I think I was getting my nose up higher at touchdown, but the landings in these conditions were not quite as smooth as I would like. I would love to have had some video to review. Oh well.
 
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Skidoo,

As a student pilot I was just happy to land, get it parked and still have the nose wheel connected to the aircraft.

You're way overthinking this. :)

Seriously, as others have said, just keep adding back pressure on the yoke until the tail stops flying. You can keep the nosewheel off for 3 to 5 seconds easy. (spoken from a 182 straight tail perspective)
 
skidoo said:
Well, I did more landings today. It was more difficult today to get set up at the right speeds on final. Winds were strange. The sock was almost flat, but at fuel up I noticed a swirling dust devil, the clouds over the mountains looked turbulent, but the smoke from local fires looked straight, yet birds were bouncing around in the 500 to 700 AGL level, airspeed indicator was bouncing around a lot too, and I noticed a plastic bag swirling at about 500 feet AGL. So, I ended up coming in a bit higher and faster. In the end, I think I was getting my nose up higher at touchdown, but the landings in these conditions were not quite as smooth as I would like. I would love to have had some video to review. Oh well.
Click to expand...

I looked at youtube to see if anyone had posted a landing video that was not based on crosswinds, crashes, or crazy landings. Seems that only the sensational videos get posted. Sure would be nice if someone would talk the viewer through a normal landing.

Bob Gardner
 
Tell ya what helped me with landings.
Not landing.
My instructor would have me come down on the numbers and just before touchdown, add a touch of power and fly along the runway at mca, then as we approach midpoint add power and do a go around. Holding the mains just off the runway for an extended period gives you a great "feel" for when she' gonna touch down.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Tell ya what helped me with landings.
Not landing.
My instructor would have me come down on the numbers and just before touchdown, add a touch of power and fly along the runway at mca, then as we approach midpoint add power and do a go around. Holding the mains just off the runway for an extended period gives you a great "feel" for when she' gonna touch down.
Click to expand...


We teach that too, but there's a certain danger in it. As in soft-field landings, the wrong amount of power can get the nose much too high as the pilot holds the airplane off too long and the tail ends up striking the pavement when the airplane finally stops flying and drops. The tail tiedown ring doesn't have the shock-absorption capacity of the landing gear (or a tailwheel) and we sometimes find damage as far up as the top rudder hinges after tailstrikes. A 172, for instance, has mass balance weights at the top of the rudder and at the elevator tips, and those weights want to keep descending even after the tail hits the surface. They yank down on stabilizer spars and control surface hinges, cracking things. The 172's rudder hinges are flimsy things that don't tolerate such abuse too well. The cast aluminum bulkhead holding that tiedown ring is an expensive and inconvenient thing to replace, too.

Long live taildraggers!

Dan
 
As far as nose wheel shimmy is concerned, my experience is that nose wheel tire pressure has a whole lot to do with it. My 77 archer would shimmy violently if the nose tire pressure was above 20 psi. I even wrote a note on the cowling to remind the mechanic (and myself) to keep max pressure below 16 or 18 psi ( I can't remember which). He even asked me once if that was a Piper spec. No, just experimental data.
It would never shimmy at this pressure level. Try it. If it works, it sure saves a lot of white knuckles.
 
ken zeiler said:
As far as nose wheel shimmy is concerned, my experience is that nose wheel tire pressure has a whole lot to do with it. My 77 archer would shimmy violently if the nose tire pressure was above 20 psi. I even wrote a note on the cowling to remind the mechanic (and myself) to keep max pressure below 16 or 18 psi ( I can't remember which). He even asked me once if that was a Piper spec. No, just experimental data.
It would never shimmy at this pressure level. Try it. If it works, it sure saves a lot of white knuckles.
Click to expand...


Probably has to do with the "aircraft quality" tire. We find them out of round and badly imbalanced. Compared to a cheap auto tire, they're horrible. Dynamically balancing the nosewheel/tire assembly stops most shimmy, but just try to buy an aircraft wheel balancer that small. I made the one we have here from an old, primitive auto wheel dynamic balancer. Someday when I have nothing to do I will design and build one and get rich. Oh, wait...how many owners will spring for the treatment?

Dan
 
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