North Ft. Worth Flying Club anyone?

Ultrabuzzard

Ultrabuzzard

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Ultrabuzzard
Are there any pilots out there interested in talking about forming a flying club or a 5 member "clubnership" (as I like to call it), maybe at Hicks Field (T67), or Northwest Regional (52F) or somesuch ... I have a couple of resources, one of which I can lease a late model C172 or 182 and the lessor pays for the engine overhaul and prop overhaul. Also have a source for a small 2 seater just for putt puttin about.

I don't know about you guys, but I think there is a lack of clubs in the Ft. Worth area. The ones I have found wat a massively high partnership buy in and fairly high monthly costs, and they ask for a minimum of 150-250 hours TT. Not all pilots out here have that many hours yet (me being one). I've been doing some cost analyses and it looks to me like my model would be very competitive to any other club around that does now own their aircraft outright.
 
Wow. I have been investigating the insurance aspect of a flying club. Alarming to say the least. I don't see how any club can survive without a high membership and high dues. I take back anything and everything that I have ever said or thought about high cost flying clubs. This is madness. Seems like the insurance industry will render flying clubs extinct in our lifetimes. I wonder how long it will be before partnerships are rendered impractical by insurance?


:frown2:
 
Rates are high for all airplanes, especially when flown by low-time pilots that are deemed to represent the highest risk. When all of the pilots are in that category, the insurance companies have calculated that the risk of loss on airplanes flown by such a group increases dramatically. Go figure.

Ultrabuzzard said:
Wow. I have been investigating the insurance aspect of a flying club. Alarming to say the least. I don't see how any club can survive without a high membership and high dues. I take back anything and everything that I have ever said or thought about high cost flying clubs. This is madness. Seems like the insurance industry will render flying clubs extinct in our lifetimes. I wonder how long it will be before partnerships are rendered impractical by insurance?


:frown2:
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FWIW, we pay just shy of $11,000 per year for a club of 30 members and 3 airplanes with a combined insured hull value of $205,000. That comes to about $30 per member per month. Not too bad, really... :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
FWIW, we pay just shy of $11,000 per year for a club of 30 members and 3 airplanes with a combined insured hull value of $205,000. That comes to about $30 per member per month. Not too bad, really... :dunno:
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FWIW, we paid just over $14,000 per year for a club of 13 members, two airplanes (Cherokee Six fixed gear and a Cessna 177 RG) with a combined insured hull value of $147,500. That's for $100,000/$1,000,000/$1,000,000 coverage for line A, a $1000 deductible for line B hull coverage both in-motion and not, no medical coverage on line C, and premium credits for "no claims" and "hangar".

That comes out to about $90 per member per month. 3x as much as yours, but with about 1/3 the number of members, so ratio is about the same. Not sure why premium is $3K lower for you with more airplanes and more hull value... higher deductible? Insurer is Avemco.
 
Troy:

How hard did you all shop?

When I was buying shonce for my Bo, Avemco was crazy-high.
 
SCCutler said:
Troy:

How hard did you all shop?

When I was buying shonce for my Bo, Avemco was crazy-high.
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Not sure, that one wasn't my responsibility. Makes you wonder, though.

Who do you use for the Bo? Feel free to PM it if you don't want to say publicly. And did you find them directly, or through a broker?
 
No problem being public; I am insured with Phoenix Aviation Underwriters, and I purchased through the AOPA Insurance Agency. They were very responsive, and shopped well.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
FWIW, we paid just over $14,000 per year for a club of 13 members, two airplanes (Cherokee Six fixed gear and a Cessna 177 RG) with a combined insured hull value of $147,500. That's for $100,000/$1,000,000/$1,000,000 coverage for line A, a $1000 deductible for line B hull coverage both in-motion and not, no medical coverage on line C, and premium credits for "no claims" and "hangar".

That comes out to about $90 per member per month. 3x as much as yours, but with about 1/3 the number of members, so ratio is about the same. Not sure why premium is $3K lower for you with more airplanes and more hull value... higher deductible? Insurer is Avemco.
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We use Avemco too. We only have a $500 deductible, yet our premiums are lower! I'm guessing it's because you have an RG and all our birds are fixed gear. Also, you have a six-seater and all ours are four. We also have no claim and hangar credits. Maybe there's a difference due to location? :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
We use Avemco too. We only have a $500 deductible, yet our premiums are lower! I'm guessing it's because you have an RG and all our birds are fixed gear. Also, you have a six-seater and all ours are four. We also have no claim and hangar credits. Maybe there's a difference due to location? :dunno:
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Or maybe we've never pushed for a lower rate. Are underwriter quotes set in stone, or is there room for negotiation (i.e., 'xyz offered $999999, we're going there if you you can't match or beat')?
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Or maybe we've never pushed for a lower rate. Are underwriter quotes set in stone, or is there room for negotiation (i.e., 'xyz offered $999999, we're going there if you you can't match or beat')?
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Avemco's rates are pretty well set in stone. With the blacklisting that the rest of that industry uses, I doubt there's much negotiation elsewhere either. It's basically Avemco vs. everyone else, and I think "everyone else" probably wins the price battle.

The advantage we have with Avemco is that everyone else wants a list of every single club member, how much time they have, how much PIC time, and a couple of other numbers. We can't even get the club to so much as respond to an e-mail, making them all add up their logbooks would be a lost cause. Avemco just wants a list of club members' names once a year. Their customer service is primo, too. :yes:
 
You ought to contact RFC and see how they buy their insurance, who they buy through. There are specific qualifications for members, hours, experience, etc., but they are not communicated to the carrier prior to flight; merely updated annually.
 
Thought I'd update those of you who might have been following my post for a flying club. So far, I have 11 people from different venues that have expressed an interest in starting a club at 52F. I am very encouraged by this and I am working toward arranging a meeting. possibly at 52F to talk about the possibility of starting a club based on my idea for a club business model. More as it develops.



BTW, how does "Aerovalley Legacy Flying Club" sound? lol
 
Ultrabuzzard said:
Thought I'd update those of you who might have been following my post for a flying club. So far, I have 11 people from different venues that have expressed an interest in starting a club at 52F. I am very encouraged by this and I am working toward arranging a meeting. possibly at 52F to talk about the possibility of starting a club based on my idea for a club business model. More as it develops.



BTW, how does "Aerovalley Legacy Flying Club" sound? lol
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Where does "Aerovalley" and "Legacy" come in?

How about "Lonestar Flying Club"?
 
I suggest, "Masters of the Universe Intergalactic Flying and Stuff Club of Geniuses."
 
Avemco has been way out in left field on my Bo and P-Baron; at least 50% more than AIG. USAIG and Phoenix which is who I've used. I wanted higher coverage limits they wouldn't even offer. They seem to do better with other planes and folks that are comfortable with $100,000 seat limits.

If you find someone with the same make and model aircraft and similar qualifications and time, that would be a good place to start. However, it can still really pay to shop. I knew some folks that had the same agent for years. When I started to fly again he said he couldn't even insure me in a Bonanza. After shopping, US Specialties did: offered better coverage for less money. We those folks with the same agent shocked. They shopped and got their rate reduced 30%.

You'll find flying club coverage is a specialty item when you get into larger groups. We've had good success with an insurer for several years that wasn't competitive for individual coverage. RFC has about 100 members.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Avemco has been way out in left field on my Bo and P-Baron; at least 50% more than AIG. USAIG and Phoenix which is who I've used. I wanted higher coverage limits they wouldn't even offer. They seem to do better with other planes and folks that are comfortable with $100,000 seat limits.

If you find someone with the same make and model aircraft and similar qualifications and time, that would be a good place to start. However, it can still really pay to shop. I knew some folks that had the same agent for years. When I started to fly again he said he couldn't even insure me in a Bonanza. After shopping, US Specialties did: offered better coverage for less money. We those folks with the same agent shocked. They shopped and got their rate reduced 30%.

You'll find flying club coverage is a specialty item when you get into larger groups. We've had good success with an insurer for several years that wasn't competitive for individual coverage. RFC has about 100 members.

Best,

Dave
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Can you recommend someone? Sounds like you have done the shopping around... Looks like there will be about 15 of us when I get this thing kicked off.
 
Have you started your club? I'm interested.
 
Steve they did start the club and I am pretty sure its active. Send a PM to Ultrabuzzard.
 
Yes, UB did get his club started... Aerovalley Flying Club, operating out of Northwest Regional, 52F (btw; same airport where the the Volvo SUV and C172 decided to test the laws of impermiability).

If you would like to come up to Denton, Metro Flyers has a slot open. We are an equity shared ownership group with 2 aircraft, a C182P and a Bonanza V35. www.metroflyersclub.com. I have been with them since late January and find it a good group and very affordable flying.
 
I agree with Dave, AIG has been far more competitive in my case (I shop it every year), perhaps they pick a certain risk profile and price that aggressively.

Also, the one limitation of airports like 52F and T67 are no approaches.
 
Ultra buzzard,

Have you started your club yet? I'm interested in joining. I'm game with only two members to start if your still looking for a start-up. I think I agree with you that 4-5 member is a good goal.
 
No... mostly saying you can't walk past 3 hangars without seeing at least one pilot wearing that RV grin of theirs.
 
Speaking of flying clubs in the NW quadrant of D/FW, I was notified today by a member of our club, www.metroflyersclub.com, that he wishes to sell his share.

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to meet them at KDTO, show off the aircraft, and answer questions.
 
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