Normally aspirated motors at high altitudes

[MAKG1]

True, however it's the best simulation you can get esp with -1"MP

It's still not very good.

With the manifold pressure reduced, you will train yourself to climb at the wrong Vy, which could have some really bad consequences. The difference in climb rate is substantial at 8000 MSL.

At the low power, at least you can lean. Don't forget this, as if you try to take off full rich at high altitude, you will not like the result. You'll do just fine at sea level with the MP reduced either way.

 

[Clark1961]

With the manifold pressure reduced, you will train yourself to climb at the wrong Vy, which could have some really bad consequences. The difference in climb rate is substantial at 8000 MSL.

You can still climb to 8,000 and figure out what Vy to use. Or just knock 5 knots off the SL Vy and you'll be pretty close for spam cans.

Maybe one should look for solutions rather than looking for reasons to not work things out.

Now with all that said, just fly to somewhere with a 5 or 6,000' MSL elevation and go for a ride with a CFI. Give yerself a couple hours on the ground with the CFI prior to the ride. No big deal and as another poster said you'll be a better pilot.

 

[MAKG1]

You can still climb to 8,000 and figure out what Vy to use. Or just knock 5 knots off the SL Vy and you'll be pretty close for spam cans.

Not if you also fly the aircraft with a wildly different W&B than you would otherwise. That will give you another 5 knots pretty easily, and it's pretty common.

Yes, this can be done, but there are a lot of ways to screw it up and make it different. It's a lot better to just do the real thing with an instructor, rather than fool yourself with a simulation.

 

[Clark1961]

Not if you also fly the aircraft with a wildly different W&B than you would otherwise. That will give you another 5 knots pretty easily, and it's pretty common.

Yes, this can be done, but there are a lot of ways to screw it up and make it different. It's a lot better to just do the real thing with an instructor, rather than fool yourself with a simulation.

Didn't say anything about not using an instructor. Just pointing out there are solutions to training out of a low elevation airport.

 

[jaybee]

Let's make that a whole 30 hp more - almost 20% hp more in an aircraft already capable of performing pretty well in the hands of a knowledgeable pilot (I have been into Leadville more than once in a 180 HP 172).

Just be aware that your humble "no big deal" opinion has been held by many others with even more power at their disposal. You can read about them in the NTSB database. Just search for "GA" and "fatal."

That's not to scare anyone. Ron, as usual, is going a bit overboard. But there are indeed considerations when flying in high mountainous terrain and high density altitude that require, at the very least, study from a knowledgeable source. Not everyone absolutely needs a mountain flying course to "get it" but I'd say that most flatlanders I've done basic mountain training with (we're talking regular public airports, not backcountry strips) have been surprised by at least some parts of the very normal flight.

For the record, I'm sitting right here and last I knew I'm not in the NTSB database number one and number two when did I say there were not considerations to be made ?

but hey thanks for inferring that I didn't plan appropriately and take proper precautions.

 

[dans2992]

I took a NA Comanche to FL210 once. It wasn't quick, but certainly made it up there.

Getting up to 15k in the Rockies was no big deal.

 

[midlifeflyer]

For the record, I'm sitting right here and last I knew I'm not in the NTSB database number one and number two when did I say there were not considerations to be made ?

but hey thanks for inferring that I didn't plan appropriately and take proper precautions.

For the record I didn't. I just noted that "it's no big deal" has been shared by others less fortunate, including those who felt they planned appropriately as well but without the knowledge benefit you had on your flight.

It's not a particularly healthy position to pass on to one who is asking for information.

 

[jaybee]

It's not a particularly healthy position to pass on to one who is asking for information.

Its not healthy to tell someone that if they take the proper precautions that even a wet ink PP-ASEL can fly into Leadville ?

 

[Clark1961]

Its not healthy to tell someone that if they take the proper precautions that even a wet ink PP-ASEL can fly into Leadville ?

You said it was no big deal. You said nothing about proper precautions in your initial post.

 

[jaybee]

You said it was no big deal. You said nothing about proper precautions in your initial post.

Ummm, because it was covered ad nauseam already... and its not a big deal. Its a flight made just like any other flight, with proper preparations and precautions as needed. <---- This is a pilot forum no ?

but please all - let's spend the next six pages arguing about the word "the"

and if someone truly believes that someone would ignore every other post in this thread, see my post and say "what the hell" then you are as stupid as your stupid arguments.

 

[Clark1961]

Ummm, because it was covered ad nauseam already... and its not a big deal. Its a flight made just like any other flight, with proper preparations and precautions as needed. <---- This is a pilot forum no ?

but please all - let's spend the next six pages arguing about the word "the"

and if someone truly believes that someone would ignore every other post in this thread, see my post and say "what the hell" then you are as stupid as your stupid arguments.

I am astounded with your display of intellect and grace.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I am astounded with your display of intellect and grace.

I'm not.

 

[Clark1961]

I'm not.

I didn't say I was astounded in a good way...it was sorta like the southern "God Bless"

 

[jaybee]

I am astounded with your display of intellect and grace.

and I'm astounded at your lack of ability to see how one comment fits into the whole

 

[jaybee]

I'm not.

this from the guy who belittles what CapnRon says only to say the same thing in a different way but his way is better so therefor it is ok

 

[jaybee]

I landed at Leadville as a Private Pilot with only 70 hours total time of flatland experience in a T41B which is just a 172 with a controllable prop.

Not saying to not be mindful of what has been said but its not that big of a deal IMHO.

You said it was no big deal. You said nothing about proper precautions in your initial post.

Are you sure about that ?

 

[CharlieTango]

I have lived at and flown out of a high altitude field for decades.

It is no big deal most of the time however there is a small list of issues that contribute to crashes from those who an not used to high altitude ops, they include:

• Failure to lean - taking off at full rich
• Failure to avoid terrain - if you cannot outclimb the terrain you have to turn away
• Overloading - 4 adults and baggage departing mid day in a 172

I have seen these common errors committed even with a CFI in the right seat.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

but, hey just keep inferring people are saying stuff that they aren't saying because of your infantile need to always be right and prove how large your e-peen is, that is working so great for ya'll now. and people wonder why this is a dying hobby.

Frankly, from where I sit, it looks like you're the one with "compensation issues." Why can't you simply say "I wasn't as clear as I could have been" and move on? If this conversation is contributing to this being a dying hobby, it's because we find ways to argue about the stupidest things rather than working together to help new pilots along.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

and if someone truly believes that someone would ignore every other post in this thread, see my post and say "what the hell" then you are as stupid as your stupid arguments.

Unfortunately, all too often when it comes to caution, that is EXACTLY what happens - The least conservative post can validate someone's feeling that "It's not a big deal, but I'll ask just in case" - They see what they want to see, and they go kill themselves because one person said it'd be "no big deal".

Now, it doesn't have to be a huge deal, but like anything a pilot is tackling for the first time, it should be approached with the proper care. Once they have experienced it a few times, THEN it is no big deal.

 

[N801BH]

Unfortunately, all too often when it comes to caution, that is EXACTLY what happens - The least conservative post can validate someone's feeling that "It's not a big deal, but I'll ask just in case" - They see what they want to see, and they go kill themselves because one person said it'd be "no big deal".

Now, it doesn't have to be a huge deal, but like anything a pilot is tackling for the first time, it should be approached with the proper care. Once they have experienced it a few times, THEN it is no big deal.

Yup... Darwin award winners are out there...

But the fact remains.... If a pilot does not investigate all avenues of a particular flight then he/she will kill themselves, and others anyway by doing DUMB things...

Rule #1...... Gravity wins EVERY time...

 

[murphey]

Nothing to worry about in terms of the engine itself - Just be aware that at 18K you won't be able to get more than 50% power.

FWIW, I've had a normally aspirated fixed-gear 182 (O-470) up to 17,500 in the summer, and I've had a normally aspirated Mooney Ovation (IO-550) up to 19,000 once and 16,000 quite a number of times.

It does depend on the airframe, but a Cessna wing won't have any issues up there.

What you do need to worry about is flying in between the rocks as well as takeoffs and landings. I'm going to break with the rest of the folks and say that the Colorado Pilots' mountain course is not the one you want - Not because they're doing anything wrong, but because there aren't really any backcountry/difficult strips to land at there. If you're going to Idaho, keep on going to McCall and Mountain Canyon Flying. They'll not only teach you how to fly around the mountains, they'll also teach you how to get in and out of some amazing backcountry strips. Awesome.

Have a safe and enjoyable trip!

I agree entirely about McCall's program and one of these days I intend to fly up there and take the course. But the OP asked about Jackson, which is considered high altitude, paved runway with lots of room to maneuver and not backcountry. It's also why I initially recommended a CFI intimately familiar with mountain flying and not CPA or McCall. On the other hand, during the Jackson trip - it wouldn't hurt to take the McCall course.

Sidebar - I've had my 180 hp cherokee up to 15.5 (ceiling is 16) - took a while but it made it. Of course out here in the summer, DA in the Denver area can easily be 9K just on the ground!

 

[N801BH]

I agree entirely about McCall's program and one of these days I intend to fly up there and take the course. But the OP asked about Jackson, which is considered high altitude, paved runway with lots of room to maneuver and not backcountry. It's also why I initially recommended a CFI intimately familiar with mountain flying and not CPA or McCall. On the other hand, during the Jackson trip - it wouldn't hurt to take the McCall course.

I fly out of Jackson Hole several times a week... Been doing it for years since I live here, in a naturally aspirated plane no less... So far.. I have beat the grim reaper......

 

[RotorAndWing]

If this conversation is contributing to this being a dying hobby, it's because we find ways to argue about the stupidest things rather than working together to help new pilots along.

Well, if you read the Chief Counsel's interpretation on the matter, you would clearly see..................

 

[Tom-D]

I fly out of Jackson Hole several times a week... Been doing it for years since I live here, in a naturally aspirated plane no less... So far.. I have beat the grim reaper......

You sure?

I didn't know you could get there from here, I thought you had to go some where else to start.