NorDo enroute

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Your cruising along at altitude and you get a wiff of burning electrical stuff, you see and hear the Main circuit breaker pop, all goes dead.

you turn the master off and no more stink, you re-set the main C/B, and pull all others, then you turn on the master, you get another wiff, and the main C/B pops again. you turn off the master. You are flying a black aircraft, its running OK, and the nearest airport is in class "B" airspace.

what would you do?
 
Need a little more info. Day, night, IFR flight plan, IMC? Main circuit breaker? (Not sure what that means) Single engine, twin, turbine. If twin you will have a split system. If turbine you do not need the master on to have power since they use generators. Some piston planes have the alt. field tied directly to the battery.
 
1. Keep flying the plane
2. Determine where I want to put it down
3. Whip out the handheld and tell ATC what I'm doing.

Conduct further T/S as the situation dictates. Works for pretty much any airplane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
3. Whip out the handheld and tell ATC what I'm doing.
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In my experience you'd be lucky to get ATC without an external antenna connection. Maybe 5 miles or so. Could be more if you hold the radio on the right side of the plane. A handheld will work, BTDT, but if you plan on it, make provisions for an outside antenna, at least a suction cup extension and a headset adapter.

To the OP, how much further is a class e/g airport, even d. I'd hate to upset a B or C if another choice was only 5-10 miles away.
 
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ronnieh said:
Need a little more info. Day, night, IFR flight plan, IMC? Main circuit breaker? (Not sure what that means) Single engine, twin, turbine. If twin you will have a split system. If turbine you do not need the master on to have power since they use generators. Some piston planes have the alt. field tied directly to the battery.
Click to expand...

Non turbo single 6 seats or less, C or P under 3000 gross, VFR
 
ejensen said:
In my experience you'd be lucky to get ATC without an external antenna connection. Maybe 5 miles or so. Could be more if you hold the radio on the right side of the plane. A handheld will work, BTDT, but if you plan on it, make provisions for an outside antenna, at least a suction cup extension and a headset adapter.

To the OP, how much further is a class e/g airport, even d. I'd hate to upset a B or C if another choice was only 5-10 miles away.
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Bingo field 150 miles away "B" at 15.
 
If you feel you must land asap, then declare an emergency Just because you can't reach em on the radio doesn't prevent your operation under emergency rules.

Proceed inbound to closest appropriate field. Try to hail tower on handheld. Enter a downwind for appropriate runway, wag wings if NORDO and hope to get a light gun. Land with or without clearance if you are having an emergency then VACATE the runway ASAP.

sort it out later. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.

If you don't consider a complete electrical failure an emergency in your situation then carry on.

My instructor had me practice no-light landings at night for such situations. Both no landing light and or no runway lights.
 
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kkoran said:
Can you think of any Class B were there wasn't another suitable airport within 150 miles? I can't.
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CYS RKS ?

may not be class B but they'll do
 
Tom-D said:
CYS RKS ?

may not be class B but they'll do
Click to expand...

KFNL and KGXY are both within 60 nm of KCYS. KFBR is 61nm from KRKS.

Not very good examples. ;)

91.131 says you're not going to the Class B anymore. But it's hard to find a Class B without a "reliever" airport that's underneath the shelf.
 
Tom-D said:
CYS RKS ?

may not be class B but they'll do
Click to expand...

So now it's Class E and D airports with the "bingo field" 50 to 70 miles away.

CYS to LAR: 40 nm
FNL: 43 nm
GXY: 44 nm
IBM: 51 nm
BFF: 70 nm
SNY: 83 nm

RKS to FBR: 62 nm
EMM: 68 nm
VEL: 72 nm
RWL: 85 nm
EVW: 91 nm
RIW: 92 nm
 
So, its criticize tom's choice of airports? or answer the problem of how to cope with NORDO.
 
Tom-D said:
IOWs you can't suggest a method?
Click to expand...
A method to do what? Land at Rock Springs? Watch for other traffic and land. Cheyenne? If I really needed to land, I'd fly a wide downwind, rock my wings and look for a light. That mythical Class B airport with no other airports near it? I guess I'd whip out my Twilight Zone Sectional and find a worm hole that would take me back to this Milky Way galaxy.

Now, if I think I might be on fire, I'm going to put it down on the first surface (not necessarily a runway) that I think I cam make a reasonable landing on.
 
VFR Day or VFR Night?

I'm not answering the question because it's contrived and lacking detail and doesn't match anything all that likely in the real-world.

Airplane isn't falling out of the sky. Electrics off, VFR Day is not even that urgent, let alone an emergency. But, fires on aircraft tend to be very bad things.

Landing at the nearest suitable airport means either you've decided you can make the bingo airport with a power setting change to make it "less close to bingo", or you're headed for the airport in the Bravo and exercising your emergency authority.

Night adds some other problems and I'd treat it as an emergency knowing in my mind, that nothing's really different from Day VFR, but there's a lot less options for landing out below, and more than one person has been surprised when they realize that they can't turn on the pilot-controlled runway lights at a whole lot of airports without a radio/electrical system.

And of course, someone else already brought up possible changes in the scenario like having a hand-held radio on board.

This 150 mile fictional airport that's further away than anyone ever sees, even out here in the "unpopulated" West (okay, I can't speak for Alaska or Hawaii...) so given the scenario at face value, I'd choose the Bravo. Arrive overhead above TPA and circle and wait for a light gun. No light gun or first sign of continued on-board fire, I'm landing.

Hell, with the options of airports given, there's probably ten or twenty places in nearby fields/roads that are completely suitable landing locations if it's Day VFR in a typical spam-can, but that'd be an option quite a way down on the list in an aircraft that's flying just fine.

Electrical problems do have a way of being insidious, though. Whatever caused that short also caused something to heat up pretty good, most likely. If that was all happening in a very bad place in the aircraft, you probably don't want to spend a solid hour plus a bit, droning along (at the speeds my airplane flies at) unless you're comfortable putting the aircraft down in the terrain below and handy with the on-board fire extinguisher.

What? You don't have a fire extinguisher? You're nuts.

You could experiment with things like Battery only, vs. Alternator, but you're just asking for an in-flight fire doing that. Better have a landing spot picked out right below you if you're going to try that one. That crew that had that sizzling RADAR that wasn't properly labeled INOP and disconnected, tried to play that game and died trying.
 
OK, now a little more simple. Based purely on the question by Tom you are not in an emergency. The smell of smoke has subsided, plane is flying well. You land at the first suitable airport. A class B is not suitable. Heck if it is day VFR as opposed to night you might just continue to your destination if it is an uncontrolled field. The only real concern at this point is how much is it going to cost to fix this thing.
 
I would try to call tower at class B from my cell phone and tell them what's going on and my intentions. Chances to get cellular signal around class B airspace are pretty high.
That's in case my handheld radio doesn't work.
I'll not fly 150 nm with electrical failure if I have ANY suitable option close by. Don't really want to fly for more then an hour thinking "what is going to fail next?". I would rather land and take care of consequences while on the ground.
 
To my way of thinking:

I had a fire since I smelled smoke. It may be out. It may not. I need to get on the ground as quickly as I can.

I'm gonna land at the nearest airport - whether it's B, C, D, E, G, or MIL. I'm gonna explain when I land that I had an electrical fire and a complete loss of power. I'm gonna file an ASRS report.

I won't be surprised if I get a call from a FSDO rep looking for a little more info. But I'll ask if there's a pending enforcement action and would be very surprised if there were.

I'll kick myself for not having a handheld radio and won't fly X/C without one again. It may not be able to raise approach, but it will be able to receive approach and Tower and probably raise Tower when I'm close OR raise another nearby airplane who can relay for me.
 
Again, Tom's question was very specific. If he had a handheld that would change the question. Again if he had complete electrical failure and he has no other problems then he is simply VFR without radios. Big deal. If you were to land at a class B or any controlled field you are creating problems for yourself. Yes you can claim an emergency but you will have to document the emergency. (I am not sure if electrical failure is an emergency on a small fixed gear plane. That is the reason for the questions on what kind of plane. Total electrical failure on a GIV is another situation.) Or you can do the NASA thing. If you go be bopping into class B you are creating problems for a lot of other people and creating a dangerous situation for others and your self for no reason. Tom, many small aircraft have a ground clearance switch which will give you a comm without master switch being on. I am adding info in case this happened to Tom rather than just made up for a what if discussion
 
NORDO is not an emergency. A total electrical system failure day VFR wouldn't qualify as one either. The electrical fire, however does constitute a legitimate emergency. Fit yourself into the pattern and land on a runway, taxiway, or infield grass if you have to. Whatever you need to do for the situation at hand, just do it. It's really no big deal. Having had a couple of emergencies (declared and undeclared) the paperwork isn't as onerous as everyone would have you believe.

Of course, if there was an uncontrolled airport nearby and you chose to land at the class B, there would be some question as to your judgement. Your scenario, however has the nearest uncontrolled about 150 miles away and the class B right there. Honestly, I'd be tempted to divert to the 150 mile away airport or turn around and go to another airport that I'd passed over 5-10 minutes before. (OK you didn't throw that into your scenario, but how many folks out there ever think about the airport that is now behind them? You'd be surprised.)


Of course if you have a cellphone handy and can read the tiny print of the airport directory, and have the time for all of this, you can give the tower supervisor a call before you land and declare the emergency with him. You'll be giving him a call afterwards anyway.
 
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I'd agree with the reasoning that smell of smoke = emergency, or at least urgency. It's not simply a VFR-without-radios situation since you did have an equipment failure and smelled something burning. If the CB for your radios pop with no smell, fine, you're NORDO. But if you've got a burning smell on board, that changes things.

Artiom, nice idea of calling the tower from your cell phone, but how are you going to dig up their phone number while hand flying, without clearance in a Class B? I don't know if "411" would turn up the number for SFO Tower so easily. Then again, I've never tried. I suppose calling 800-WX-BRIEF could put you in touch, and I did find the direct number in the A/FD so I suppose those are options. Interestingly, the tower phone number isn't listed in ForeFlight anywhere except the A/FD section... but other phone numbers are listed for Flight Service and for both ATIS and ASOS.
Edit: Bobcat1 squeezed in a post as I was writing mine.
 
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Artiom said:
I would try to call tower at class B from my cell phone and tell them what's going on and my intentions.
Click to expand...
I wondered, how many pilots can find the tower phone number while in the air?
 
Tom-D said:
I wondered, how many pilots can find the tower phone number while in the air?
Click to expand...

If there are flames in the cockpit, you don't have that kind of time. Instead, in your scenario, where the smoke seems to have abated, you have a shot at looking it up.

Preflight item: before a long x-c, look up the tower numbers and program them into your cell? This makes some sense if you travel a route frequently. I've never done this but it sounds like I should consider it.

-Skip
 
ronnieh said:
Tom, many small aircraft have a ground clearance switch which will give you a comm without master switch being on.
Click to expand...

Most just have a split maser that can turn off the engine driven gen/alt.

no one has mentioned trying to isolate the gen/alt and see if the smoke goes away.
 
Skip Miller said:
This makes some sense if you travel a route frequently. I've never done this but it sounds like I should consider it.

-Skip
Click to expand...

That's where I am, cell phones could be pretty handy, if you knew the numbers.

not having a facilities directory handy I don't know if they are in ther or not
 
I agree with those who say NORDO is not an emergency, but when the smell of burning goes away too, do you still have an emergency?
 
Tom-D said:
Most just have a split maser that can turn off the engine driven gen/alt.

no one has mentioned trying to isolate the gen/alt and see if the smoke goes away.
Click to expand...

I call shenanigans! "Most" you say? You did not specify that in your original post! While you're at it, as long as the cockpit is not filling up with smoke, you will have time to reference the procedure that would have you isolate the problem.

I made the assumption (wrongly, as all assumptions tend to be) that the appropriate non-normal procedure/checklist was followed.

You get the "Gotcha!" award for today!
 
Tom-D said:
I agree with those who say NORDO is not an emergency, but when the smell of burning goes away too, do you still have an emergency?
Click to expand...


There is no such thing as a "small fire" in an airplane.
 
I suppose the advantage of calling FSS is that it's all on tape. But going through all the voice prompts might not work out so well. Personally, I would call my local tower whose number is in my contacts on my phone and ask them to help. I figure they might know who to call or could find out and they always answer by the second ring.

Where in ForeFlight can you find tower numbers? If I hit the AF/D button under airports it only shows the page for that airport which does not have a tower number. Is there some other way to access the AF/D in ForeFlight?
 
Bobcat1 said:
I call shenanigans! "Most" you say? You did not specify that in your original post! While you're at it, as long as the cockpit is not filling up with smoke, you will have time to reference the procedure that would have you isolate the problem.

I made the assumption (wrongly, as all assumptions tend to be) that the appropriate non-normal procedure/checklist was followed.

You get the "Gotcha!" award for today!
Click to expand...

Not trying to be a Gotcha,,,,,,, most late model C & P aircraft only have a split master.

You may have a simple regulator failure, and could get your radios back on the battery without the gen/alt on line.

knowing the electrical system in your aircraft is the key to good trouble shooting in the air.
 
Read Tom's question. No mention of fire, just a smell. The CB itself may have been getting warm. The smell has gone away. He is simply flying without radios. There is NO emergency. Land at a class B airport with airplane problems in a small plane and by the time you get it fixed and on your way it will be an emergency. If there is smoke in the cockpit and it is not clearing QUICKLY then the nearest piece of asphalt will do nicely. I will be glad to deal with that paperwork. If you have time to look up cell phone numbers and so on during a day VFR flight I think you will have a hard time with the emergency claim. There are many things a pilot in this situation might should have done in preperation for the flight and many things he might do now. A split master only takes the alt off line. If the problem is in power distribution than it will still be there. Much of the trouble shooting in flight depends on the plane. Does he have dual avionics buss. Can the back up avionics buss be isolated, Do you have an essential and non essential buss (not likely). Toms question seems to be in a small fixed gear, single engine. A ground clearance switch is most likely only option to get back some equipment without turning on the master switch.
 
Bobcat1 said:
There is no such thing as a "small fire" in an airplane.
Click to expand...

How do you know you really have a fire when you shut every thing off and the smell goes away.

but you are right, when you have continuing smoke, it is a big thing.
 
Wingsofglass said:
Where in ForeFlight can you find tower numbers? If I hit the AF/D button under airports it only shows the page for that airport which does not have a tower number. Is there some other way to access the AF/D in ForeFlight?
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. I quickly scanned the A/FD pages and came across phone numbers but then noticed they're for D-ATIS and ASOS. Some Class B airports that I've found have contact #'s for Noise Abatement information listed. I'd guess a call to FSS would be the simplest, if you felt the need to establish contact before landing.
 
Tom-D said:
Your cruising along at altitude and you get a wiff of burning electrical stuff, you see and hear the Main circuit breaker pop, all goes dead.

you turn the master off and no more stink, you re-set the main C/B, and pull all others, then you turn on the master, you get another wiff, and the main C/B pops again. you turn off the master. You are flying a black aircraft, its running OK, and the nearest airport is in class "B" airspace.

what would you do?
Click to expand...

I'd land and get out of the airplane. I don't care about the airspace or if the landing is on an airport.
 
Would it be an idea to have the numbers in the ID block next to the airport on the sectional ?

how would one do that?
 
Tom-D said:
Your cruising along at altitude and you get a wiff of burning electrical stuff, you see and hear the Main circuit breaker pop, all goes dead.

you turn the master off and no more stink, you re-set the main C/B, and pull all others, then you turn on the master, you get another wiff, and the main C/B pops again. you turn off the master. You are flying a black aircraft, its running OK, and the nearest airport is in class "B" airspace.

what would you do?
Click to expand...
Current FAA guidance is not to reset circuit breakers in flight unless required for safe flight.

a. Resetting Circuit Breakers In Flight. The FAA reiterates its concern about resetting CBs during flight. Crewmembers may create a potentially hazardous situation if they reset a CB without knowing what caused it to trip. A tripped CB should not be reset in flight unless doing so is consistent with explicit procedures specified in the approved operating manual used by the flightcrew or unless, in the judgment of the captain, resetting the CB is necessary for the safe completion of the flight. A detailed entry in the aircraft’s maintenance log is a proven safety practice for tracking purposes, and may provide maintenance personnel with key information to enable prompt trouble-shooting and effective corrective action on the ground.
Click to expand...

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/ed51f1681e9d8c5e86256e4a00744607/$FILE/AC120-80.pdf
 
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