Non Immigrant Training in US Part 61

[SimFlyer]

Good day to all,

Many old post and info around but mostly i feel confused about instructors and general net info. FTSP say they dont support visa questions, TSA will give your clearance despite your visa type, and people saying things changed.

I have mi PPL, also US Foreign certificate, passed IRA and CAX in US recently and decided to try part61 training and final certifications towards IRA, CAX and MEL in US since i have many many hours.

I contacted 3 different schools and they are confused about if needed different visa in my case.

The big question: B1/B2 Visa, can i enroll part 61 flight training toward the mentioned certificates in US by getting correct sponsorship from US authorized flight school/Instructor? I have a recently renewed B1/B2 visa (+15years), so they are concerned about it being cancelled to obtain M1. Might not be necessary they said.

Answer from the net: you need M1 visa. You are getting a degree....UCIS website. Period!

Answer from local instructors: you have IRA and CAX theoretical US passed. You are part61 and only need to fill the few hours required in US and get endorsement to apply for checkride. M1 is for 1 year or more courses, mostly part141..... you can not go for M1 is you need partial practical preparation only 1 or 2 month or less.

Testimony from a person Who actually did it: i took 7K, went to US, flew few hours with a DPE and got my endorsement part61 to get my checkride, all within less than a month. He got it indeed, before pandemic.

One of the flight schools: You dont need any M1 visa, just go for TSA and we are ready to get your flight training started. (Email confirmation). Yep!

What a problem, right? we got to be careful with flight schools these days, and we need to be ecomonically efficient, so, better to ask some fellow pilots around: how did you do it? Should i go for M1? Or is it a safe process for me these days....?

Thanks for your support

 

[schmookeeg]

Sir, this is a Wendy's.

 

[Tools]

TSA stuff done, you can train part 61. I Agree with the school you spoke with.

 

[weilke]

You are encountering exactly the same circular reference issue that I ran into back when I had a H1b and started my flight training. Nobody could give me an answer. My flight instructor was in his 80s and told me 'here is my social, just sign me up for that TSA thing so we can get started....'. After digging through the actual regs, I figured out that if you dont have a M1 or F1 specifically issued for flight training, you CAN train but you have to inform CBP at the time you enter the country that you intend to pursue flight training. Some way or another you have to inform CBP when you enter the country that you plan to obtain flight training. I had received my TSA clearance, so when I returned from a trip home, I told the CBP officer that I am back to work under my H1b AND that I am planning to pursue flight training. He looked at the TSA thing, made a note in the IBIS record and on I went.

It is my understanding that there is no enforcement mechanism for this requirement and nobody knows it exists (or existed, I am talking a few years back). CBP/USCIS are not involved in policing anything after you enter the country. The requirement pre-dated the entire TSA clearance process and came out of the 9-11 highjacker situation. Like many things with the feds, nobody cares until they care. So unless someone starts digging because you got caught in some russian embargo violation investigation, nobody would figure out So, if you have a school that trains you with just the TSA clearance, that's what I would do 'the government approved this, right...'.

 

[TommyG]

You are encountering exactly the same circular reference issue that I ran into back when I had a H1b and started my flight training. Nobody could give me an answer. My flight instructor was in his 80s and told me 'here is my social, just sign me up for that TSA thing so we can get started....'. After digging through the actual regs, I figured out that if you dont have a M1 or F1 specifically issued for flight training, you CAN train but you have to inform CBP at the time you enter the country that you intend to pursue flight training. Some way or another you have to inform CBP when you enter the country that you plan to obtain flight training. I had received my TSA clearance, so when I returned from a trip home, I told the CBP officer that I am back to work under my H1b AND that I am planning to pursue flight training. He looked at the TSA thing, made a note in the IBIS record and on I went.

It is my understanding that there is no enforcement mechanism for this requirement and nobody knows it exists (or existed, I am talking a few years back). CBP/USCIS are not involved in policing anything after you enter the country. The requirement pre-dated the entire TSA clearance process and came out of the 9-11 highjacker situation. Like many things with the feds, nobody cares until they care. So unless someone starts digging because you got caught in some russian embargo violation investigation, nobody would figure out So, if you have a school that trains you with just the TSA clearance, that's what I would do 'the government approved this, right...'.

Even tough CBP and TSA are under DHS, they apparently don’t talk to each other with this rule.

 

[SimFlyer]

Hello to all, thanks for your support,

Even tough CBP and TSA are under DHS, they apparently don’t talk to each other with this rule

Yes, i even called embassy and they are not sure. For expl. You are pilot already, same case but this time you wish to pursue ATP. It is widely known that you dont need any further visa process. so embassy said they are not sure... Do you imagine? There is no clear view of this. All i want is to complete my build up time hours, get my endorsement and complete the certificates safely and timely.

It is my understanding that there is no enforcement mechanism for this requirement and nobody knows it exists (or existed, I am talking a few years back). CBP/USCIS are not involved in policing anything after you enter the country. The requirement pre-dated the entire TSA clearance process and came out of the 9-11 highjacker situation. Like many things with the feds, nobody cares until they care. So unless someone starts digging because you got caught in some russian embargo violation investigation, nobody would figure out So, if you have a school that trains you with just the TSA clearance, that's what I would do 'the government approved this, right...'.

I will talk to local DPE in US, if they are confident(probabbly have done it several times) i will get things started with the F.Academy and go flying man!..... Thanks for your words, it´s a relieve to hear that.

TSA stuff done, you can train part 61. I Agree with the school you spoke with.

Thank you, i will deep talk with their DPE and get things started if they are confident about it.


Thanks to all, let me make some calls and i´ll be back (T-800)

 

[weilke]

I will talk to local DPE in US, if they are confident(probabbly have done it several times) i will get things started with the F.Academy and go flying man!..... Thanks for your words, it´s a relieve to hear that.

DPE has nothing to do with that. Whoever the school has appointed as their person for the Theater-Security-Administration and the visa process is who you need to talk to. If they are satisfied that they can do the training, that's what you need. DPE deals with administering FAA exams, that's it.

 

[bflynn]

Does it help to point out that part 61 flight training is not considered education unless you do it through an accredited school?

Get your TSA clearance, connect with a local flying club, and nobody teaching flying cares what your visa status is, it should never be brought up. You’re pursuing a hobby that requires certification, nothing more. It’s similar to going hunting or fishing - get the license to do it and then follow the safety rules.

 

[SimFlyer]

Thanks for your advices. I hope some folks find this message useful as well... Happy Flying!

 

[Kubus95]

Hello everyone,

I’m seeking update in this thread and possible advice. I have PPL as well as foreign based PPL. I want to add instrument and multi rating and possibly gain commercial license in the FAA world. I contacted some part 61 schools and it’s all confusing (also due to contradicting net info); some say just get TSA approval and fly to United States on your B1/B2 visa (granted for 10 years) and some of them say get the TSA stuff done but we don’t assist with visas. So I went through all the info here and also on other forum- still not sure what to do. If part 61 is truly not considered education (like university) and full time studying and I won’t break the magical number of 18 hours of studying per week (it pops up from time to time when I search google,but I’m not sure if it has any legal basis) should I be able to travel on my visa? I asked U.S. consulate and embassy in my home country - they don’t know. My goal is not finding a job afterwards in the United States- I won’t to gain my skills, get back to Europe to convert it and look for a job here. I’m not planning to spend more than 5-6 weeks in the Us ( at least at once, maybe I’ll come back for commercial or multi engine; priority is to get instrument first).

Maybe somebody went through that path before? Looks like foreigner training at part 61 is a little bit in the grey zone- I know people did it in a past and I knew about school in Kansas which had a lot of international students and it was part 61 ( so they were not able to support the m-1 student visa); sadly the owner who was also instructing closed the business cause he retired and can’t reach him anymore…any info would be much appreciated!

 

[mandm]

I was watching the fly8ma CFI videos and he said if you already had a FAA PPL that they didn’t need to check for your TSA approval. No idea if I heard wrong or if he misspoke.

 

[bentmettle]

FTSP Home

The CFIs and/or school are going to have to at least interact with the TSA system. I can see the attractiveness of them saying the visa isn't their problem because from their POV, they're primarily looking to assure they're compliant with the TSA program that can penalize them. Also, they have essentially no interface with the visa process.

Our club, being in a university town, has a significant number of foreign students being trained under Part 61 rules.

I'd break down the problem into the two parts - one, you have to figure out how to enter the country legally, on a visa that allows you to undertake flight training and whatever else you intend on doing while here. Part 2 is finding a Part 61 school familiar with the TSA program. I'd simply ask if they have experience with and a willingness to train foreign nationals, and can accomodate your desired schedule.

It sounds like, if it's possible, you need to talk to someone at a US consulate about the visa and your plans to undertake flight training while you are in country.

 

[Rene]

Even tough CBP and TSA are under DHS, they apparently don’t talk to each other with this rule.

OpSec. Nobody IN the government is authorized to talk to anyone else IN the government about anything. (In fact the only way they know ANYTHING any other agency is doing is by reading the New York Times.)

 

[Kubus95]

I was watching the fly8ma CFI videos and he said if you already had a FAA PPL that they didn’t need to check for your TSA approval. No idea if I heard wrong or if he misspoke.

If it’s a stand alone FAA PPL -yes- cause you had to go through TSA before getting that PPL. But if it’s foreign based- no TSA clearance here, so if you want to get your instrument, multi or commercial - TSA approval is a must. However, you don’t need TSA approval at all for things such as tailwheel endorsement or aerobatics etc.

 

[Kubus95]

FTSP Home

The CFIs and/or school are going to have to at least interact with the TSA system. I can see the attractiveness of them saying the visa isn't their problem because from their POV, they're primarily looking to assure they're compliant with the TSA program that can penalize them. Also, they have essentially no interface with the visa process.

Our club, being in a university town, has a significant number of foreign students being trained under Part 61 rules.

I'd break down the problem into the two parts - one, you have to figure out how to enter the country legally, on a visa that allows you to undertake flight training and whatever else you intend on doing while here. Part 2 is finding a Part 61 school familiar with the TSA program. I'd simply ask if they have experience with and a willingness to train foreign nationals, and can accomodate your desired schedule.

It sounds like, if it's possible, you need to talk to someone at a US consulate about the visa and your plans to undertake flight training while you are in country.

I would be more than grateful if you could ask them! I totally get it that for part 61 school my visa is not an issue, but as I said- it seems that it is possible to take training under part 61 on B1/B2 (business/tourist) visa and people had done it legally. But it’s kinda between the lines of law- no chance for student visa here since it can only be supported by 141 school and training might be possible on tourist visa if CBP will consider it as idncidental and not formal education such as 141 and university. And the US embassy simple answered me “we don’t know” however in kind words. I probably need to find part 61 school/ instructor who had a ton of international students and know the process…

 

[midlifeflyer]

I was watching the fly8ma CFI videos and he said if you already had a FAA PPL that they didn’t need to check for your TSA approval. No idea if I heard wrong or if he misspoke.

Either. Someone who is already private pilot who is content with their current certificates and ratings does not need new TSA clearance or TSA notification for flight reviews, general recurrent training, etc.

Table 3 from the TSA regs: